1333 replies to this topic

[Adem]

I gave the game an honest chance, then gave up when I got to go on the sacred water fetch quest. Re-using dungeons is unacceptable.

I wouldn't call it reusing. You merely travel back and go through. Yeah, you need to find one small key and the enemies are more difficult, but it took me but a few minutes. I thought it was a nifty idea.

[Giggidy]

Considering the puzzle sequence you have to do to get that small key is practically the entire dungeon, yes I'd call it re-using. Furthermore there was the absolutely awful trial thing with the "guardians" that are just the temple of the ocean king all over again. And the knowledge that I'd have to do it twice more in the other two areas and you know what? I'm not enjoying the game enough to slog through it just to get to potentially interesting content later in the game.

[The Satellite]

Furthermore there was the absolutely awful trial thing with the "guardians" that are just the temple of the ocean king all over again.

I honestly loved the Temple of the Ocean King. And didn't like the Tower of Spirits in ST as much. I must be a weird one, but as far as the Silent Realms, well, they had to grow on me. I personally think they were pretty good, and heart-pounding; Zelda needs more heart-pounding moments. Maybe not to that extreme a degree but still.

[Xenix]

I beat the game two days ago. Amazing game! I enjoyed the fights with Ghirahim especially! Demise was such a pushover...seriously. I didn't even have any trouble with him. I am enjoying boss rush mode. I set a record for 1:37:69 but it didn't record it due to me having to get off the game. I did manage to get close to that record though. Right now it says 1:50 something. Still good, but I'm still a bit mad at that. I was going to go back and take a picture of it to post on here..fat chance that's gonna happen. Still, I am enjoying boss rush mode! I fought Koloktos in 3:37:59! No health lost either! I never really had a problem with any of the bosses.

[Adem]

Considering the puzzle sequence you have to do to get that small key is practically the entire dungeon, yes I'd call it re-using. Furthermore there was the absolutely awful trial thing with the "guardians" that are just the temple of the ocean king all over again. And the knowledge that I'd have to do it twice more in the other two areas and you know what? I'm not enjoying the game enough to slog through it just to get to potentially interesting content later in the game.

There's an annoying part in almost every Zelda game. Wind Waker and the Triforce Charts. Twilight Princess and the search for those tear things as a wolf every time you entered a new area...Majora's Mask and the collection of the Zora eggs? I don't like the Silent Realm very much, but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not as bad as some of the other things that have been in other Zelda games. I mean, I can't force you to continue playing the game. But as far as story and character development go, this game could eat the other Zelda games for breakfast.

[Golden Chocobo]

There's an annoying part in almost every Zelda game. Wind Waker and the Triforce Charts. Twilight Princess and the search for those tear things as a wolf every time you entered a new area...Majora's Mask and the collection of the Zora eggs? I don't like the Silent Realm very much, but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not as bad as some of the other things that have been in other Zelda games. I mean, I can't force you to continue playing the game. But as far as story and character development go, this game could eat the other Zelda games for breakfast.

I'd like to add on to this and say that there's something in every game that someone finds annoying and would rather not EVER play through that part of the game again, but they do anyway because the rest of the game was so good. For instance, I absolutely dreaded the silent realm. I thought I was all done with them after 3, and then they whip out a fourth! I wanted to die! But I also wanted to continue playing because I thought it was a good game despite that.

Besides, the only time that a dungeon is "reused" in this game is the instance previously mentioned (that I can recall) when you have to run back and get the sacred water. Even though you travel to the same three regions, there are spaces that were previously unexplored because at the time you were there before, you lacked the items to reach certain places. Also, they add more difficult enemies when you return, and in some instances, the area has changed. So it's the same region... but different. I found that more believable than five or six completely different regions within the same game.

[Giggidy]

Twilight Princess and the search for those tear things as a wolf every time you entered a new area...

How ironic then that they use the exact same UI in the silent realms... When I saw the flower thing and the one-hit-killing-invicible-guardians-you-have-to-sneak-past, my first thought was "Nintendo is trolling us." Except the silent realms are even worse, because not only do you have an effective time limit, and can fail the mission and have to start all over, but in Twilight Princess the bug-hunting served the purpose of giving the player a tour of a new area. The silent realms are places you've already been to, so it doesn't even have *that* positive. It exists purely to pad out the game.

But as far as story and character development go, this game could eat the other Zelda games for breakfast.

I take serious issue with this. Now I can't judge anything that comes after the second time you go through Skyview Temple, but I can judge everything that comes before. I can confidently say at this point that Skyward Sword's story and characterization is worse than nothing.

Why? Because Skyward Sword is a video game that's written as if it were a movie. There are several critically important things that they missed because Nintendo has no idea how to write the plot for a video game. Here are a few:

1. The player needs to feel like they're accomplishing something. Humans give up on an activity if it becomes apparent that nothing positive is coming out of it. In the beginning of the game your quest is to "Find Zelda" but the first two dungeons (and maybe the third) are literally a complete waste of Link's time. He might as well have just gone to the temple of time and waited for her to show up. Yes, yes, he needs the tablets to get to the temple of time but your stated goal is never "find the tablets" but is always "find Zelda." The tablets are just a coincidental consolation prize you get at the end of the two temples.

2. The player needs to feel motivation. In a movie it's sufficient to simply understand the protagonist's desires, but in a video game to be successful you have to make the player feel those desires themselves, because the player *is* the protagonist. Again, the character's motivation is "Link's crazy in love with this Zelda girl and he wants to find her." This is stretched so far that I lost that motivation quite early on. I'd say the point where I stopped caring about Zelda was when the Kikwi Elder said she was already gone by the time you get to him, and that he wouldn't tell you where she went until you did a stupid hide-and-seek quest with the other Kikwis. That's where I said "Screw this, they're just making up contrived s*** to fluff out the game's content now." From that moment on, I was playing completely for metaplot reasons. Putting in elements that the player doesn't take care to notice or follow is a complete waste of both the developer's time and the player's. And in this case, the element I stopped caring about was the entire "epic" story.

3. Less dialogue is more. In a movie, how the shots are framed and what's going on visually defines the scenes almost as much (and sometimes even more than) the scripted lines. Video games have a similar but even more powerful tool: The player's interaction with the game world. As much as possible in a video game should be conveyed to the player with how these interactions work. Having the characters start talking in a giant, unskippable cutscene should be your absolute last resort, not the first. Nintendo absolutely fails here: Every last bit of plot and characterization comes from the lines of the characters and not through their in-game behavior. In the few places where it could be said that someone is characterized by their behavior, it's nullified by this being displayed in a 10-minute cutscene anyway. For example, anyone who went into Groose's room at the academy knows that on the inside he's just a whiny little b****. Yet, we still have to sit through that long-ass cutscene after you fight "the imprisoned" that serves no purpose but to tell us this.

4. Finally, All things in the character's way should be a challenge for the player to overcome. Again, let's talk about Groose. Do you get to stab his ass to make him tell you where the loftwing is? No, he goes away on his own after Zelda shows up and tells him off. I *had* a perfect motivation to fight this idiot, and Nintendo absolutely squanders it by settling the issue in a cutscene. And not only that, but the *same* cutscene where the conflict is introduced! Watching that cutscene was a complete waste of my time, and it does nothing to pull the scene forward.

(Yes I know about the loftwing race. Any "motivation" you could be said to be given to beat Groose and his friends is wasted by the fact that the race is impossible to lose. It's just a final exam to ensure the player understands the flight mechanics.)

Now, you may have something to say to all this: "But Giggidy! Earlier zeldas had hardly any story and characterization at all. Surely Skyward's story, even with all of its flaws, is better than none at all." Lemme answer this objection pre-emptively: The problem is, earlier zeldas didn't waste my time with these long, unskippable cutscenes. Not only does Skyward's plot not add anything to the gameplay, but it actively takes away by forcing you to sit around and watch for ages. Skyward Sword is like that creepy, overbearing coworker who forces you to look at pictures of their kids at every opportunity they get. Including story that does nothing but waste my time is just friggin pretentious.

I thought I was all done with them after 3, and then they whip out a fourth!

Lovely. :/

Besides, the only time that a dungeon is "reused" in this game is the instance previously mentioned (that I can recall) when you have to run back and get the sacred water.

Well, that's good I guess. I thought I'd have to redo all three. Do we get new dungeons for flames 2 and 3, or just no dungeons at all then?

So it's the same region... but different. I found that more believable than five or six completely different regions within the same game.

Five or six completely different regions within a game of this supposed size and scope? That's sorta *expected.* Ocarina of Time, A Link to the Past, and even Twilight Princess could do it, why the hell can't this one?

[Russ]

I take serious issue with this. Now I can't judge anything that comes after the second time you go through Skyview Temple, but

Stop. You're quitting WAY too early; the big character development happens later. Seriously, go finish it.

Well, that's good I guess. I thought I'd have to redo all three. Do we get new dungeons for flames 2 and 3, or just no dungeons at all then?

Um, there's a new dungeon for flame 1 too. The Skyview Temple revisit is, no kidding, about a 10 or 15 minute detour on a way to the first Flame Dungeon. All three of the flames have their own dungeons, and they're all amazing. Seriously, you're stopping way too early in the game to fairly judge it.

[The Satellite]

I can't help but feel like you're making stupidly trivial complaints. Of course, you seem to have already decided you hate this game, so I won't bother wasting my time trying to change your mind. I would point out that the majority of your post is an opinion. Yes, cutscenes should have been skippable like in TP, but eh, that's a somewhat trivial complaint. On the other hand...

1. The player needs to feel like they're accomplishing something.

I did.

2. The player needs to feel motivation.

I did.

3. Less dialogue is more.

Eh, somewhat agreed.

4. Finally, All things in the character's way should be a challenge for the player to overcome. Again, let's talk about Groose. Do you get to stab his ass to make him tell you where the loftwing is? No, he goes away on his own after Zelda shows up and tells him off. I *had* a perfect motivation to fight this idiot, and Nintendo absolutely squanders it by settling the issue in a cutscene. And not only that, but the *same* cutscene where the conflict is introduced! Watching that cutscene was a complete waste of my time, and it does nothing to pull the scene forward.

This one is just ridiculous. You obviously haven't figured out Groose's importance to the plot yet— whoops looks like I'm wasting time like I said I wouldn't have.

The whole game is a subjective experience. Maybe I'm just more invested in the plot than you are, I dunno. But honestly, your complaints just come off as sad.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I don't find faults in this game; there are a small handful. It's just that, wow, the way you've worded some of these complaints is just leading to me barely managing to hold back from beating a dead horse in this sentence. Then again I should be used to this kind of thing by now.

[Giggidy]

Um, there's a new dungeon for flame 1 too. The Skyview Temple revisit is, no kidding, about a 10 or 15 minute detour on a way to the first Flame Dungeon. All three of the flames have their own dungeons, and they're all amazing.

That's great news! I seriously thought I wouldn't get any new dungeons until after the gate of time (or whatever it's called) part.

I can't help but feel like you're making stupidly trivial complaints. Of course, you seem to have already decided you hate this game, so I won't bother wasting my time trying to change your mind.

Note that I (on purpose) only pointed out flaws in the game's story and the presentation of such. Nintendo is simply not ready to handle this sort of thing, and honestly I don't even think they should be trying.

Anyway if you'd like to hear me say something positive, I've got a few things:

1. The inventory management through the adventure pouch is something that really has the potential to add a lot of depth to a type of game like Zelda, and I'm glad they finally added it, if it's a bit underused.

2. They've actually been really good so far about expanding on items gained earlier. This is one of my big problems with Twilight Princess: You'd get an item, use it for one or two puzzles in the immediate area, maybe for a boss, then you'd never touch it again. This is problematic because the essence of puzzle-solving is applying an old skill in a new way: the fun comes from that "aha!" moment when you see how the pieces fit together. Because Twilight Princess never used more than two or three pieces at a time, this seriously limits the ability of the designers to make engaging puzzles and makes Hyrule Castle feel the same as the Forest Temple. In Skyward you're still using the item from dungeon 1 as a major piece of your arsenal in dungeon 3, which is a big improvement as it allows puzzles to be far more complex.

3. While swordplay is not quite as deep as I had hoped (Do you get special moves or something later?), it's still deeper than "randomly flail about" which is a big step up from pretty much every other swordfighting game on the Wii. Strictly speaking I liked the combat in Red Steel 2 better, but that game was a glorified tech demo.

4. The game at least attempts to have real sidequests in the form of MM. While I'm not as satisfied with the side quests in Skyward as I am with the ones in MM, things like the love letter one are a big step up from "Carry this barrel to the other side of the planet within the time limit!" and "Collect 20 bugs for me!"

5. If you ignore people entirely, the environments are actually quite nice looking. I've always loved the cell-shaded style. (But Link looks like his nose is about to fall off whenever he looks at the camera.)

This one is just ridiculous. You obviously haven't figured out Groose's importance to the plot yet

Lemme guess: He grows a spine and performs a heartfelt heroic sacrifice at some point. (Though he may or may not come back to life by the end.)

[Sheik]

So I started playing it today. I just finished the Skyview Temple. Overall really fun thus far and Girahim put quite a fight on me being the casual player I am. I terms of ideas, setting, visuals, diffculity etc it might well be the best Zelda game I've played.
The motion controls aren't that bad even. Yes, it's near impossible to perform stabbing with the sword and flying the Loftwing is the most contra-intuitive thing I've ever done in a video game (except for trying BoaB years ago) but other than that I can't complain much about it. I would have prefered traditional controls but that's 2011 for you I guess.
My first impression is very good and I'm looking skyforward to more of it.

Edited by Yoshimi, 25 December 2011 - 03:20 PM.

[Golden Chocobo]

Five or six completely different regions within a game of this supposed size and scope? That's sorta *expected.* Ocarina of Time, A Link to the Past, and even Twilight Princess could do it, why the hell can't this one?

Because it's not the same game! It's trying to be different, which is nice for a change in the Zelda series.

[Giggidy]

Because it's not the same game! It's trying to be different, which is nice for a change in the Zelda series.

Different? This isn't different, it's lazy. L. A. Z. Y.

[Sheik]

Entered the first flame dungeon just now and I am... discouraged. I've never been fond of water dungeons in Zelda ever since OoT's Water Temple and I feel I've had enough of water in Skyview Temple and so forth. I really hope the Cistern is different than the typical headache-inducing raise water level or control water flow stuff.

I really liked the first three dungeons, though, so I hope this one won't let me down now.

[Adem]

Entered the first flame dungeon just now and I am... discouraged. I've never been fond of water dungeons in Zelda ever since OoT's Water Temple and I feel I've had enough of water in Skyview Temple and so forth. I really hope the Cistern is different than the typical headache-inducing raise water level or control water flow stuff.

I really liked the first three dungeons, though, so I hope this one won't let me down now.

I hate Water Temples, but I didn't mind this one too much. It has it's annoying moments, but they're brief, and the dungeon certainly isn't difficult.