180 replies to this topic

[Nathaniel]

I think when people say that, they think of their religion not as one among many, but rather a category of their own. That is, Christianity is not a religion, but all the others are, because they think of themselves as part of a group unlike all others in every way you can imagine. It doesn't make sense to me, but that is my simple theory on it.

[ElLibertador]

I find religion limits human potential and progression.

Religion is vile in my opinion, but please don't take that offensively. It's a mental prison which I've watched tear people apart. It's full of hate.

I also find it ridiculous that people keep changing and "progressing" religion to be more modern. Following the rules of religion is supposed to be strict and is not supposed to be subject to change. Cherry picking religious people are not really following their own religion.

I also find the christian god to be a vile creation of human past. He is selfish, controlling, sexist, his beliefs are randomly chosen and many other things that make him a ridiculous thing to follow. He kills people for not believing in him. He's like a child.

No offense to anybody though, I only meant to insult organized religion and the christian god. I except everyone but I have a hate for religion since I was raised christian and after leaving religion I felt such a weight lift from myself that I want people to know.

You know I would actually except religion more if it wasn't so integrated with human life and was a private institution, not some massive money stealing, power hungry organization.

Edited by Rafael, 04 August 2011 - 11:15 AM.

[Fabbrizio]

I started out not liking your wording, but this part really sold me on your point:

It's a mental prison which I've watched tear people apart. It's full of hate.

This is absolutely true. I've seen it first-hand too. Most people who base their entire lives on conforming to religious beliefs will, as you describe, destroy themselves, and if they don't they will definitely try to destroy others. My youth leader was that kind of a person. She was one of those right-wing burn-the-gays missionaries, and I absolutely hated her for that. I realized when I met her that I'd have to escape Catholicism if I ever wanted to be a civilized person.

As you can see now, I'm theistic but I can't stand conforming to religion. I have taken an interest in Islam, but that's more curiosity than religious interest.

[Adem]

I still don't understand why so many people say this. If you're Christian you subscribe to Christianity, Christianity is a religion, therefore you're religious. Being religious doesn't necessarily mean going to church, paying tithes, reciting mantras, etc., it just means belonging to a religion. If your religion doesn't include any of those things they you wouldn't be expected to do those things even if you WERE religious. If you believe Christianity is more about emulating Christ than adhering to Jewish rituals then in abstaining from "religion" you're actually adhering to it.

I think it's just that many Christians don't like the label "religion" because they recognise how silly it is, and since very few will readily admit to believing in something so silly they instead convince themselves they're not a part of the flock.

I think he just meant that he has his beliefs, but he isn't a total fanatic. Often times, people associate the word "religious" with constantly going to church, participating in worship and prayer, etc. Basically affiliating everything with God's will; "Okay, my brother was just hit by a car. God's will be done." You know what I mean? In this case, I believe he was saying he is indeed Christian in the sense that he believes in God, but is not "religious" because he does not partake in the aforementioned activities. At least, that's how I took it.

Am I making sense?

[Nathaniel]

Hmm, Rem could have a point too. Hard to know for sure unless we hear further elaboration from those who said it.

There are certainly different degrees of "religious", which would lead to differing definitions of what "religious" means, or what is considered enough to be religious or what is considered not enough. I would use terms such as fanatical, fundamentalist, or even cult-like to describe much heavier religious views that the vast majority of religious people wouldn't fit into, and not necessarily all of those terms at once. Although "cult" doesn't necessarily have to do with religion, or what is considered religion by many.

[Moonbread]

I find religion limits human potential and progression.

Religion is vile in my opinion, but please don't take that offensively. It's a mental prison which I've watched tear people apart. It's full of hate.

I also find it ridiculous that people keep changing and "progressing" religion to be more modern. Following the rules of religion is supposed to be strict and is not supposed to be subject to change. Cherry picking religious people are not really following their own religion.

I also find the christian god to be a vile creation of human past. He is selfish, controlling, sexist, his beliefs are randomly chosen and many other things that make him a ridiculous thing to follow. He kills people for not believing in him. He's like a child.

No offense to anybody though, I only meant to insult organized religion and the christian god. I except everyone but I have a hate for religion since I was raised christian and after leaving religion I felt such a weight lift from myself that I want people to know.

You know I would actually except religion more if it wasn't so integrated with human life and was a private institution, not some massive money stealing, power hungry organization.

You know, no one's stopping you from liking or hating a certain belief system, that's up to you. But I'd personally appreciate if you'd avoid the kind of comments that will eventually start flame wars; or please try to at least be a bit more tactful. Just remember that there are people here who believe in exactly what you're slandering left and right, because the whole religious system is diverse. I like the track record this thread has right now, for the record, and don't want to see it devolve into us at each others throats.

Although this, this is me nitpicking: it'd been better if you hadn't used the phrase "No offense," because that really just means, "I'm gonna offend you, but don't get mad about it." I'm not mad, maybe a little offended by the things you had to say (but I'm already over it). It's just kind of a jerk thing to say to people, especially on a topic that can easily rile people up.

[Pabru]

While Rafael's lack of tact was perhaps rather aggressive, I'm not sure that's a bad thing (assuming that we DONT degrade into simple flaming). He clearly has very organized thoughts on the issue but you have to take into account that he's focusing on certain instances, or even a general instance, but that's not necessarily a condemnation of all religious people.

So yes, the institution of the church could be bad in theory and in general. The Christian god could be defined by history and religious writing that reveals certain negative tendencies. Organized religion may often serve as prison. But that's all exactly that: an attack on religion, not FAITH or BELIEF (at least that's how I interpreted it). It's not so much a personal attack like "you're dumb for believing that" but rather questioning the institutions and systems of organized religion.

Indeed, that's exactly Kierkegaard's approach. He was a theologian, a very deeply spiritual and religious man, but his critique of the church was absolutely scathing.

[Chris Miller]

In the absolute sense, yes, Christianity can be called a religion, in that there are certain rules we live by and that we go to church and pray regularly.

What we refer to as "religion" is when they go over the top with the rules and just start to make stuff up as they go along. "You have to wear this hat in this place, you can't wear red on such-and-such day, you can't eat pork, stone all nonbelievers." God didn't say to do any of that stuff. It's not anywhere in the Bible.

That's what we're trying to distance ourselves from. Do I disagree with athiests and various other non-Christians? Yes, of course I do. Do I hold them in contempt for their beliefs (or lack thereof)? Absolutely not. Will I try my best to convert them? Oh, yeah. If I don't at least make the effort, then I feel their blood is on my hands. Of course, I'd expect nothing less than the same from them in return.

[Fabbrizio]

God didn't say to do any of that stuff. It's not anywhere in the Bible.

Don't mean to turn this into one of THOSE discussions, but...since the bible was heavily revised back in the 900s or so, who is to say that what's in the modern bible is even the true word of God for Christians? Since the medieval Englishmen basically removed any passages from the bible that implied Jesus to be anything other than the son of God, it could be reasonably argued that the modern-day bible is 100% propaganda.

And the definition of 'religion' is not subjective. Most people don't particularly care how it is YOU define religion. This is the definition of religion.

Edited by PowerGauntlets, 04 August 2011 - 06:17 PM.

[Chris Miller]

Not so. Compare the King James version with the English Standard Version(which is translated directly from the original, unrevised texts, and is considered to be the most accurate today). Except for the dialect, they're not particularly different. The main thing they did with the revision you speak of is of course update it to the then-modern English, and did away with some footnotes and notations that weren't in the scripture itself anyway.

EDIT: I did say it was true in the absolute sense, did I not? How often do we ascribe fifty different meanings to a word? It is a bad habit, I admit, and a hard one to break.

Edited by Chris Miller, 04 August 2011 - 06:23 PM.

[NoeL]

What we refer to as "religion" is when they go over the top with the rules and just start to make stuff up as they go along. "You have to wear this hat in this place, you can't wear red on such-and-such day, you can't eat pork, stone all nonbelievers." God didn't say to do any of that stuff. It's not anywhere in the Bible.

Um... not sure which Bible you're referring to, but God did say that stuff in "the Bible" (or allegedly commanded to do that stuff). From memory, Exodus and... I think Deuteronomy, are very heavy with "stone the infidels!" laws. Even goes as far to call for the stoning of unruly children. It also says no "unclean" foods (which includes pork), no wearing of wool-linen blends, no homosexual buttsecks, etc. To deny that stuff is in the Bible is just, well, ignorant

Of course, I'd expect nothing less than the same from them in return.

ORLY!? I'll take you toe-to-toe any day of the week... although your apparent poor knowledge of the Bible doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence in you...

Am I making sense?

Yeah, but it still stems from a misunderstanding of the word, imo.

[Moosh]

From memory, Exodus and... I think Deuteronomy, are very heavy with "stone the infidels!" laws. Even goes as far to call for the stoning of unruly children. It also says no "unclean" foods (which includes pork), no wearing of wool-linen blends, no homosexual buttsecks, etc.

I seem to recall asking my parents how a just and loving god could say these things and they responded with some delusional bulls*** like "Oh God was just testing us with a silly joke lol he loves you". Other typical responses I've received from similar questions are "Why don't you ask God" (because asking him will totally clear up my doubt in his existence), "Why don't you ask (insert more knowledgeable person here)", or "let's talk about it later". Or sometimes I'd get an honest "IDK" followed by some canned response about how Jesus loves me. Maybe it's just me, but I feel it's important to doubt ones own beliefs...otherwise you become a mindless drone. So yeah story time's over and boy I've sure gone off topic...

[NoeL]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel it's important to doubt ones own beliefs...otherwise you become a mindless drone.

QFT [/offtopic]

[Fabbrizio]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel it's important to doubt ones own beliefs...otherwise you become a mindless drone.

It's not just you. Doubt leads to research, which leads often to the true answer.

[Moonbread]

Ah yes, but I doubted my former beliefs, and now I'm at Christianity. I'm sure a lot of you are going to think I'm not done doubting. :B