1324 replies to this topic

[Twilight-Prince]

After many grueling attempts and banging my head against the wall (thankfully less of the latter than the former), I finally beat Master Core on 9.0 using one of my Gunner Miis (mostly Attack based with a little Defense). Good lord, it felt so satisfying to do this!

 

Now some have asked me if fighting Master Core on 9.0 is harder or the equivalent of doing Boss Battles on Intense from Brawl. Let's compare the two, then I'll give my opinion on which is tougher.

 

Brawl Boss Battles on Intense difficulty has you fighting 10 bosses in a row, including all the major bosses from Subspace Emissary as well as Master/Crazy Hand, shuffled in a random order with Tabuu being saved for last always. Like All-Star mode, the player gets a rest between fights with three Heart Containers to bring their damage back to 0% should they require to. Having played Brawl pretty extensively in the day, I can definitely attest to the fact that this mode on Intense can be murder to your mind and fingers if you're not prepared for it. Certain bosses stand out from the others being hard (I'm looking at you, Duon), but with enough practice and quick reflexes, a majority of the bosses can be fought with little consequence.

 

Moving on, let's take a look at Master Core on 9.0. Unlike Boss Battles, this is done on the game's Classic mode, so the main challenge is actually GETTING to Master Core by defeating all the prior fighters before him. See, as we all know, if you lose both of your stock in a battle in Classic, you get a game over and the difficulty is turned down half a notch. That there is the major difference between this and Boss Battles. You have to do it all in one go and if you lose any fight beforehand or with the Core itself, you have to start over. As for fighting the Core itself, like many of the bosses in Brawl, practice, reflexes, and above all patience is a good thing to have when fighting all five parts to this fight (The Hands, Master Giant, Master Beast, Master Edges, and Master Shadow). I think among all of the forms, Master Edges is probably the one you have to be most careful around. The tells of his attacks can be quick and painful if you don't watch carefully. Master Shadow is probably the next hardest, because you're basically fighting a slightly stronger Level 9 CPU . Master Beast can be a pain, but his attacks all have tells that, while fast at times, can be easy to dodge. Master Giant...well, surprisingly was the one I had the least trouble with. All of his attacks can be very easily dodged sans the "Table Flip" attack.

 

Overall, which do I believe is more difficult? To be fair, each has it's own difficulty curve. Boss Battles is how well can you fight 10 foes with HP bars with limited recovery. Master Core 9.0 is a testament of endurance to make sure you make the least number of mistakes or be doomed to start from the beginning again. I'd probably still say Master Core has the edge in difficulty in that regard, but everyone has their own thoughts on this matter.

 

And with those paragraphs done, I'll leave others to discuss about this. *collapses from exhaustion*

Edited by Twilight-Prince, 24 October 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Aevin]

Interesting ...  I actually find getting to Master Core on 9.0 to be much less frustrating than fighting him. I also find the shadow to be the least challenging form. It seems I have an easier time beating normal sized opponents, maybe because my characters are usually fast with lots of projectiles. Master Core still thrashes me, though, even after the difficulty decreases over and over again. That sword form ... I probably just need to fight it more to learn its attacks better. I've only beaten it on 6.0.

[MarinaraSauce]

Seriously? We have two Marios AND a Racoon Suit item. 

 

The difference is that Tanooki Mario wouldn't be a clone.  His down special could be the statue thing and he couldn't have fireballs, since he would already have a different item

[CaRmAgE]

Interesting ...  I actually find getting to Master Core on 9.0 to be much less frustrating than fighting him. I also find the shadow to be the least challenging form. It seems I have an easier time beating normal sized opponents, maybe because my characters are usually fast with lots of projectiles. Master Core still thrashes me, though, even after the difficulty decreases over and over again. That sword form ... I probably just need to fight it more to learn its attacks better. I've only beaten it on 6.0.

 

I don't think the AIs are even at level 9 to be honest (or at least it never felt like they were to me).

 

The first two forms were the hardest for me, because he moves waaaaaaay too fast to react consistently (even faster than Tabuu on Intense).  The Master Giant's "cry" move in particular is baloney, because, even with 100+ defense on Ganondorf, the move still insta-killed me.  In order to beat 9.0, I used a Bowser with average stats (one of each equipment type) and the auto heal capability.  One way to quickly get past the first form with Bowser is to use Bowser Bomb from the ground, which scores two hits per use.

 

The Master Edges form wasn't as bad for me as people hyped it up to be.  Once you've learned his attack patterns, he's not that bad.  Other than the standard slash attack, all of his moves that are capable of launching you require some build-up, so you can see them coming in advance.  Even his 5-slash attack has a certain rhythm to it: slash-slash-slash-slash-pause-slash

 

On my first attempt with Bowser, I was able to make it to the Master Shadow fight before losing my first stock, so I would recommend giving him a shot.

Edited by CaRmAgE, 24 October 2014 - 03:11 PM.

[Russ]

-No, Sakurai first said (I think around E3 2013) that Mewtwo maybe could have a chance in Smash 4. Then around Smash 4 3DS' release (iirc) he said he wasn't in the final roster because of Melee's data rot, which is false.

Why is this false? For Project M, a hack of Brawl, they had to recreate Mewtwo from scratch, because Melee's data was unusable at that point. So what makes you think it'd magically be usable again for Smash 4. All signs point to Mewtwo being created from scratch. And most likely being created from scratch after the game's release, when Sakurai saw just how badly people wanted him. It's not on-disc DLC or day-one DLC, it's something created after the game's release purely because fans asked for it and being given away for free. For the life of me, I can't understand why that's making people angry.

[Maleboocado]

The Clone Engine used in Project M and general Brawl hacking (which is what makes Mewtwo and Roy a reality) works by taking a single character and then copying it over an unused slot. You cannot copy Melee's data and put it in a slot, you need to recreate the whole character from scratch, remake all the animations and recreate the bones. This is why both Mewtwo and Roy does not have their own face icons in Classic, All-Star and Multi-Man modes, why Mewtwo and Roy shares their high scores with Lucario and Marth respectively, and why some specific Brawl Events crashes (Event 3 is an example, your rival is supposed to be the Pokémon Trainer, but since he no longer exists and Mewtwo replaces some of the Trainer's files with his Shadow Ball, the game cannot load the correct data.. in fact, it says your rival is Mewtwo in the Event's description). When you pick Mewtwo, the game internally believes you're picking Lucario.

Brawl hacking has still its limitations. For example, it's impossible to add new projectiles. Ivysaur's Solar Beam isn't technically a projectile, just a bunch of hitboxes. Mewtwo, as I said before, has his Shadow Ball because the Pokémon Trainer was removed. Remember, you're hacking a compiled binary. The fact that Brawl's hacking has gone so far it's impressive. Things like PhantomWings' File Replacement Code were at its time believed to be impossible.

But someone with access to Brawl's source code could import Melee's data, make the apropiate changes and putting it in the game. The same thing happens with Smash 4.

If you still don't believe me, then read this reddit conversation where an experienced Brawl hacker speaks about Smash 4's internal data: http://www.reddit.co...sh_bros/ckpmicc

Edited by Maleboocado, 24 October 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[Haylee]

I'm just gonna put this here:

 

[The Satellite]

I don't know what kind of reaction you expect to that, other than:

 

butts

[Xenix]

This is why both Mewtwo and Roy does not have their own face icons in Classic, All-Star and Multi-Man modes
...and why some specific Brawl Events crashes (Event 3 is an example, your rival is supposed to be the Pokémon Trainer, but since he no longer exists and Mewtwo replaces some of the Trainer's files with his Shadow Ball, the game cannot load the correct data.. in fact, it says your rival is Mewtwo in the Event's description).

This is false. They have their own icons. And Event 3 doesn't even have anything to do with Pokemon Trainer. It's "Pink Ball Repulsion" and it is a fight between Meta Knight and Kirby. You're thinking of Event 5. And it doesn't crash, it just always ends up being Ivysaur vs. Squirtle and Mewtwo's announcer call is heard. You might want to go play it again and take a look at stuff more closely. Event 8 also works.

I'd explain exactly how the clone engine works too but I'm a little too tired to do that right now. But you are half right about its functionality. (The part about how it copies slots and how records are saved.)
Mewtwo is a little more complex than just "replace this and replace that". All it takes to see that is a few minutes browsing through the files in BrawlBox.

Not saying you are completely wrong. You are right in a lot of areas, but you need to do a bit more research.
And if you want to see some proof I know what I'm talking about, go in Project M and face a few of the bosses and be prepared to hear Roy and Mewtwo SFX instead of the Boss SFX on two of them.

As for the announcer calls, they are replacing the Pokemon Trainer and unused Metal Alloy Team calls.

 

Also, you are right about not being able to import a character unless they build it from scratch. That is something I always have to remind people sometimes.

Sources: I play Project M on a daily basis and in tournaments. I make the occasional run through on classic as Roy. AND I know a Project M dev who relays information to me fairly often.
I know I'm late in responding to this. And for that, I apologize.

As for Mewtwo being released as DLC, I'm not all too excited for it. But I know there are those who love the character.

[Maleboocado]

Don't worry, thank you for correcting me.

Yeah, I think I had the wrong Event in mind (I already suspected it when writing the post, but I was lazy to do some fact check then, I was also on a mobile). Nevertheless, everytime I have tried to play that specific event (the one about the PKMN Trainer) the game crashed. Both in a Wii and in Dolphin. Same with Event 8 and others. Oh well, this will remind me to never assume everything.

About the face icons: maybe it's a read/write error on my Wii/SD, but everytime I have played All-Star Mode, the game has never, ever loaded Roy's icon on Castle Siege. It always load Marth's. With face icon I'm not referring to the portrait in the character's info at the lower part of the screen, I mean the small face that is visible in the upper left side and indicates the remaining rivals. Now, I'm not sure about Mewtwo, but I have seen other Pokemon-related glitches, such as Charizard being loaded and spawned instead of Squirtle and Ivysaur. How this happens and why, I'm not sure, because some times the level is fine, and all the 7 Pokémons are loaded correctly. And I have seen more icon-related glitches on Classic too, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, I know about Mewtwo and Roy's SFX replacing two bosses' slots. I have seen that on Youtube a lot time ago and I found it cute and funny.

If you could explain (and have the mood) how the clone engine works, then I will read it closely, but if you don't want to, then please tell me where I could find more information. All I know is from scattered Smashboards/reddit threads.

Edited by Maleboocado, 12 November 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[Xenix]

Don't worry, thank you for correcting me.

Yeah, I think I had the wrong Event in mind (I already suspected it when writing the post, but I was lazy to do some fact check then, I was also on a mobile). Nevertheless, everytime I have tried to play that specific event (the one about the PKMN Trainer) the game crashed. Both in a Wii and in Dolphin. Same with Event 8 and others. Oh well, this will remind me to never assume everything.

About the face icons: maybe it's a read/write error on my Wii/SD, but everytime I have played All-Star Mode, the game has never, ever loaded Roy's icon on Castle Siege. It always load Marth's. With face icon I'm not referring to the portrait in the character's info at the lower part of the screen, I mean the small face that is visible in the upper left side and indicates the remaining rivals. Now, I'm not sure about Mewtwo, but I have seen other Pokemon-related glitches, such as Charizard being loaded and spawned instead of Squirtle and Ivysaur. How this happens and why, I'm not sure, because some times the level is fine, and all the 7 Pokémons are loaded correctly. And I have seen more icon-related glitches on Classic too, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, I know about Mewtwo and Roy's SFX replacing two bosses' slots. I have seen that on Youtube a lot time ago and I found it cute and funny.

If you could explain (and have the mood) how the clone engine works, then I will read it closely, but if you don't want to, then please tell me where I could find more information. All I know is from scattered Smashboards/reddit threads.

I think the problem you are facing might be that you need to erase Project M off of your SD card and put it back on with fresh files. Try that.
Also, if you want information on the clone engine, you should probably check this out: http://opensa.dantar...ry:Clone_Engine

This is a page made by the guy who made it. Basically, it's a full list of pointers and such telling the game to "load this file at XX hexidecimal value" and such. It's really well put together and doesn't require replacing files. So Pokemon Trainer wasn't used for the shadow ball thankfully because that would be hilarious.
Mewtwo: "Your life force is my power!"
Also, they did figure out how to make new projectiles. For Mewtwo's Shadow ball, it is a copy of Lucario's aura sphere that has been edited to match Mewtwo's Melee Shadow Ball exactly in movement/knockback/etc.
If you want to continue this discussion, we should carry this into the appropriate thread though.
http://www.purezc.ne...showtopic=60098

I'm not a big fan of derailing topics. Especially given my position and standing in the community as a staff member.

[Xenix]

Found these. My life = complete. xD
This one is my favorite. lol

This one is good too though.

[ZeldaPlayer]

How many matches had anyone done? Because I did 667 matches total.

[HavoX]

No DLC planned, Sakurai-kun says.

(Bummer.)

 

Nintendo says otherwise? Hmmm...

[HylianGlaceon]

No DLC planned, Sakurai-kun says.

(Bummer.)

 

Nintendo says otherwise? Hmmm...

 

I wouldn't take anything Sakurai says as truth to be honest. It wouldn't surprise me if they announced 6 new DLC characters next week after this.

 

Mewtwo is technically DLC any way I look at it too.