147 replies to this topic

[The Satellite]

Twilight Princess is honestly far from the only Zelda game that has a problem with items that don't get much use outside dungeons. Dominion Rod is the worst offender apart from Ball and Chain because it only gets use in Temple of Time and leading up to City in the Sky. Spinner still shows up here and there for navigational obstacles or obstacles. Ball and chain... yeah, is useless, but it's an alternate fighting item I suppose, even though I never used it outside of its intended use. I don't think it's that bad in Twilight Princess, maybe more obviously noticeable, but it's not the only game to have a problem with low reusage of items. Besides, it does at least pull out some other old items for puzzles, like the Gale Boomerang or lantern. So there's still that, at least.
 

I am looking forward to the reviews of the DS games Phantom Hourglass will probably appear very underwhelming after playing a game like TP.

Eh, I don't think that'd be a problem, or else I'd have been tons more disappointed with Four Swords Adventures right after Wind Waker. Besides, I do well to keep experiences separate and focus on the individual game and its contributions to the series. There will inevitably be some comparisons, since there are tons of similar features among the Zelda games, but the last game I played doesn't have much effect on the one I am currently playing. As for the DS Zeldas... well, you'll see those soon.

[HylianGlaceon]

Ball and Chain OHKOs most Ice based enemies though without a hassle. It's also quite useful in a few floors of the Cave of Ordeals. Fighting Chilfos (those ice skeleton things) can be a pain either way, but the Ball and Chain works well on them. It can also break open suits of armor that sometimes have a Poe or Rupees in it. Lastly, it can be used as a defensive weapon to prevent wolfos from hitting you while in the snow. Think of it like you would with the Megaton Hammer from OoT and Skull Hammer from Wind Waker. An alternate weapon to the sword that's useful for a little bit, but completely overlooked later on.

 

And yeah agreed, TP isn't the only game with the item issues. If we're going to complain about TP's item usage, we should also complain about how the items were in the other games as well. I'd say every or nearly every Zelda game has some items that have potential but get thrown to the side.

 

Anyhow not much else to say, TP is my favorite game in the series and probably always will be at this rate. It has issues with some areas, Soundtrack is eh and difficulty-wise it's too easy. But it also has some of the best dungeons, overworld and item selection in any game..

Edited by HylianGlaceon, 24 July 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Orithan]

Expanding on items with wasted potential that I know of...

• Raft (LoZ) - The all it does is provide passage to Level 4 (1st quest) and a Heart Container.
• Ladder (LoZ) - Again, only used for crossing small gaps. More useful than the ladder. but still not enough to not feel like a key.
• Wand (and book) (LoZ) - Given way too late to be useful, Considering that it can't touch the Wizzrobes or Darknuts (Really, they should have worked on the Darknuts).
• Ice Rod (aLTTP) - Has very little use, outside of the Trinexx battle, and costs way too much magic to be effective in combat.
• Magic Cape (aLTTP) - Becomes almost entirely obsolete when you get the Cane of Bryna (which is, honestly, OP), and yet it is a seperate item.
• Giant's Gloves (LA) - Sees virtually no use outside the Face Shrine.
• Fire Rod (LA) - This recieves ZERO use outside Turtle Rock, but it is a formidable weapon in combat. More useful than Giant's Gloves, but not really that useful.
• Ice Arrows (OoT) - Freezing enemies (ie. Like-likes) is nice, but that is not much considering the Fire Arrows.
• Hyper Slingshot (OoS) - A tacky upgrade to an item that didn't need one and the dungeon designed around using it. Might as well have made a new item altogether.
• Spinner (TP) - Once you leave Arbiter's Domain, it is nearly useless and it doesn't do well in combat either.
• Dominion Rod - The definition of uselessness in anything other than when its required.
• Whip (SS) - Good concept, poor execution. Rarely used outside the Ancient Cistern, where it gets superseeded by the Hookshot. I'd say this is a subpar item at best.

[Aevin]

I think there's a distinction between items that have no use and items that you can choose to not use. I don't think "usefulness" is determined by how many times the game forces you to use it. So for most of the weapons you list, I'd suggest they don't really fit.  Just because you choose not to use the items outside of their "key" mechanics doesn't mean they aren't useful. I love the ice and fire rods, the wand, the whip, and the hyper slingshot. The ladder opens up several overworld shortcuts, and is necessary in many dungeons. The ice arrows are perhaps my favorite zelda item of all time, and they certainly have a large variety of uses in Majora's Mask.

 

I'll agree on the raft, giant's gloves, spinner and dominion rod, though. There's a similar glove upgrade in OoA that is also an offender.

Edited by Aevin, 24 July 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[The Satellite]

Ice Rod (aLTTP) - Has very little use, outside of the Trinexx battle, and costs way too much magic to be effective in combat.
Magic Cape (aLTTP) - Becomes almost entirely obsolete when you get the Cane of Bryna (which is, honestly, OP), and yet it is a seperate item.

Ice Rod can be used to freeze enemies then hammer them for a quick magic refill. Magic Cape does something Byrna can't do: Slip past bumpers. I wouldn't call either of these items superfluous or a waste of potential. Could there be better potential? Yes, but I don't se it as wasted at all.

[RetraRoyale]

Ice Rod also murders Lanmolas pretty good. Also, LA's fire rod is a last dungeon item, and it mows down bushes and enemies better than anything else in the game. (I'm ignoring the boomerang.) It's too powerful to give weaker items later, because you should have everything by then. That's almost like saying it's unfortunate that there aren't more uses for the silver arrows in LoZ. It's the last item you get... and something has to be a last item.

 

The first time I saw Twilight Princess, a friend had a completed save and he was showing me the items. All I could think was that there was no point to playing the game. I didn't want any of those items, and there are only a few anyway. I could never get through TP because I didn't want any of the rewards. I want a variety of items that give me access to new areas and new secrets. That way there will be a lot of areas and secrets to explore.

 

Personally, I don't mind if an item is underused. I'd rather it be underused than non-existent. LoZ with the raft is better then LoZ without, just because there is the potential for someone to look at a raft dock and not know what solves it or when it can be solved. It adds mystery.

[Nicholas Steel]

Expanding on items with wasted potential that I know of...
 

• Raft (LoZ) - The all it does is provide passage to Level 4 (1st quest) and a Heart Container.
• Ladder (LoZ) - Again, only used for crossing small gaps. More useful than the ladder. but still not enough to not feel like a key.
• Wand (and book) (LoZ) - Given way too late to be useful, Considering that it can't touch the Wizzrobes or Darknuts (Really, they should have worked on the Darknuts).
• Ice Rod (aLTTP) - Has very little use, outside of the Trinexx battle, and costs way too much magic to be effective in combat.
• Magic Cape (aLTTP) - Becomes almost entirely obsolete when you get the Cane of Bryna (which is, honestly, OP), and yet it is a seperate item.
• Giant's Gloves (LA) - Sees virtually no use outside the Face Shrine.
• Fire Rod (LA) - This recieves ZERO use outside Turtle Rock, but it is a formidable weapon in combat. More useful than Giant's Gloves, but not really that useful.
• Ice Arrows (OoT) - Freezing enemies (ie. Like-likes) is nice, but that is not much considering the Fire Arrows.
• Hyper Slingshot (OoS) - A tacky upgrade to an item that didn't need one and the dungeon designed around using it. Might as well have made a new item altogether.
• Spinner (TP) - Once you leave Arbiter's Domain, it is nearly useless and it doesn't do well in combat either.
• Dominion Rod - The definition of uselessness in anything other than when its required.
• Whip (SS) - Good concept, poor execution. Rarely used outside the Ancient Cistern, where it gets superseeded by the Hookshot. I'd say this is a subpar item at best.

 

 

- Ladder is extremely useful in dungeons. It allows you to stand between paths and avoid all damage depending on the enemies in the room, if anything the ladder is OP.
- Ice Rod, as has been mentioned can be used to regain magic fairly quick.

- Fire Rod is an excellent money maker but by the time you get it, money isn't an issue.

 

The rest I think you have a fair point.

 

I think my issue with TP's over world (Excluding secret caves) is that there really isn't much to do in it and it is larger and more emptier then Ocarina of Times with arguably less platforming sections then Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, both Oracle games, Link's Awakening.

Edited by franpa, 25 July 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[The Satellite]

Phantom Hourglass

 

It didn't take long for Link's next adventure to be released. The game had been in development since 2004, even while Twilight Princess was being development, and was actually meant to be another Four Swords game. When the game was finally announced in 2006, I found the concept interesting but was too engrossed in my anticipation of Twilight Princess to give it any real attention until after I was done with the game. That was when I started following the next adventure.

 

I'd had a DS since the month of its release, While I liked the concept and possibilities of the console, I didn't actually have or play very many games that extensively used the touch screen, most of them stuck to buttons or had an alternate button control scheme that I preferred. So I was curious to see a game that would actually delve deep into the handheld's capabilities and provide an all-new gaming experience based on that. Teasers of stuff like drawing a boomerang path or ship course were also pretty interesting, as well as the promise that the sea travel would be a better experience than in The Wind Waker, which this game was to be a sequel to.

 

So, how does this game, with its "revolutionary" play style stand up to the rest of the series?

 

It sucks.

 

Nah I kid. The engine they came up with was actually pretty impressive. My one complaint was that sometimes the touch screen could be obscured while there's action going on, but otherwise, Nintendo made a great control scheme for this game. That's not to say it wouldn't have been nice to have had some sort of alternate control scheme with buttons, but for the most part, that wasn't really a problem for me. It plays out pretty simply and intuitively: You hold down the stylus in the direction you want Link to run and tap objects you want to enter/open/speak to/pick up/read/attack. Drawing circles around Link does a spin attack, while drawing little circles at the edge of the screen while running makes Link roll. The latter is a bit difficult to get used to, but once you do, it can be pretty fluid. My other complaint is that it's sometimes difficult to hit a moving item you can't target, such as during a game of Dead Man's Volley; swiping the screen isn't as reliable as I'd like it to be. Lastly, you're given occasional panels to draw symbols on, which is normally fine, but sometimes it can be a bit finicky and not recognize your drawing, even if you drew the right symbol. But otherwise, it works pretty well. Not exactly a standard I'd want to return for several games, but for one or two games, it's acceptable. After all, we've had worse repeating conventions. Here's looking at you, episodic format...

 

Sure, the engine is great, but how does it hold up in gameplay? Well, there's the obvious new feature, and that's the ability to mark notes on your map. This is actually a pretty neat idea and one I'd be okay with returning in future games, and the 3DS and Wii U both offer the perfect opportunity for that. What this does, though, is eliminate the map and compass; you start out already having the map available for each dungeon, and the locations of chests are not marked, but you can pay Gossip Stones on each floor to learn their locations and mark them yourself, though this is not necessary. While I miss having to obtain the map, it's something that mostly goes unnoticed, though you do lose the ability to see which rooms you haven't visited yet.

 

Then there's the sailing. Now, it delivers on its promise to at least make sailing more compact and less tedious than in Wind Waker, by letting you plot a path ahead of time, then simply control the camera or attack enemies with a cannon by tapping them on the touch screen. Islands are also closer together and sailing doesn't take up as much time, and there are even a few navigational challenges you have to solve. But the "hands-off" approach to sailing itself made me feel a little more vulnerable, such as when I find myself needing to change course suddenly due to certain enemies, which would require me to plot a new course first. In the end, while I love the ease of using the cannon while in motion, I found myself longing for Wind Waker's sailing, which captured the atmosphere much better in my opinion. One excellent thing it did have, though, was the expanding of the salvage arm, essentially turning it into a minigame, and a fun one, for going after treasure. Definitely a good aspect. Heck, you could even fish in places too, if you found the fishing rod, so fishing fans can rejoice. Actually, I don't really remember how it plays out, since I didn't run into the fishing rod this playthrough, so I'm not sure how the controls work and if that caused any drawbacks or annoyances. Otherwise, fishing. Fun.

 

As for the game itself... Well, one thing I noticed quickly is that the game tends to point out obstacles silently too often, with the camera focusing on that object, when usually those are things you should really be able to figure out yourself quite easily. Ciela, the new fairy helper, is another of those who tend to point out the obvious, such as "fire hurts," but to her credit she's still nowhere near as bad as Ezlo. They also at least attempt to make her more interesting story-wise, which I'll get to down below.

 

Instead of being full 3D or full 2D, the game somewhat merges the styles. It's not a top-down adventure, more like a fixed angle, so it's similar in spirit to the 2D games of the past, just with a greater freedom of movement. Caves and houses are all entered from the front, and each island has its own goals or secrets to explore. Only a couple are lacking, but these are usually just there for plot or for some optional sidequest. Unfortunately, Phantom Hourglass doesn't seem to have very many sidequests, which is a shame; there are a ton of possibilities for sidequests with this new gameplay style. The game does offer some fun things to explore, though, so that's a plus.

 

As for dungeons, well, they've all got their neat and clever little puzzles, and are pretty fun to play, but unfortunately, the design of interior areas is kind of lacking and many areas look pretty similar, so each individual dungeon doesn't stand out too uniquely and most are forgettable. Which is a shame, because there are quite some fun ideas in there. There's also a ton of really neat twists on items, such as the grappling hook attaching to two posts and used as a tightrope or to launch yourself, bombchus having a path you can draw, hammers activating flip panels, and the boomerang as mentioned above. There aren't very many items in the game, but they're all used quite well.

 

Speaking of dungeons... one of the most infamous in the series is featured in this game: The Temple of the Ocean King. It's the central dungeon of the game, one you return to to obtain sea charts, letting you explore more of the ocean. The main gimmick is the titular Phantom Hourglass, which allots you a time limit for standing outside "safe zones" in the dungeon; once time runs out, you start taking damage until you die. The safe zones don't damage you and also hide you from the Phantoms, the Darknut-like patrolmen of the dungeon. They're invincible, and one hit will shave off one heart and thirty seconds off the timer, and you're sent back to the beginning of the floor. You navigate the dungeon without getting caught in order to access the sea charts, and you return to it four times after your initial journey to the first sea chart. Some people disliked this. I actually enjoyed it; finding new and faster strategies to get through the temple was fun, and after a couple of times you're given a halfway point to skip the first part of the temple. I do understand people's frustration with it... but I'm not afraid to sit here and say: I love it.

 

Anyway... The game obviously isn't without flaws. Nintendo tried really hard to pump out a good-looking graphics engine in attempts to recreate the feel of The Wind Waker, but... they didn't quite make it. It's not their fault, I'm sure the DS just wasn't powerful enough to handle it. The environments still do their best to look neat, but character models just look a bit strange. They did their best, the graphical style just isn't entirely pleasing. It works though. Before the fourth and fifth dungeons, there's not a ton of things to do, instead somewhat pointless questionnaires or interrogations. Discovering which Anouki was really a Yook was a neat idea, but the execution was just beyond confusing. There's also the fact that there's a terrible lack of good music just about everywhere. There are a couple of good themes, such as anything involved with Oshus or Linebeck, but most themes barely count as music, and other songs range from forgettable to interesting. Shame, really.

 

As for the story... it's fairly good. Tetra is kidnapped by a mysterious beast, called Bellum, that feeds on life force, and Tetra's was particularly strong. Link gets sucked into another world and learns that the creature has also reduced the Ocean King to a minor form, as well as captured the three spirits of Power, Wisdom, and Courage. Ciela, it turns out, is one of these three spirits, who split herself in half to escape the creature. After forging a new, more powerful sword, you can destroy Bellum and restore the Ocean King to his original form. It also follows the character development of Linebeck, one of my favorite characters in the series. He runs the ship that you use on your adventure, and totes himself as a "famous treasure hunter" while really being quite the weakling and coward. He and Ciela have some great interactions, and by the end, he pulls his own badass moment and has quite the character turnaround. Really great, memorable character, one of my favorites if not my favorite. Really enjoyed him. So at the very least, the story is fun. Not one of the best in the series, but definitely not one of the worst. They did a good job.

 

So Phantom Hourglass is definitely an experiment, one that was mostly successful in treading new ground but falling short in areas they excelled in before. It's not quite one of the best games in the series, it's more towards the middle, but still pretty fun and enjoyable. It needs some touch-ups, for sure, but still fun for what it was. Nintendo seems to have had similar thoughts, as their next game in the series uses the same style as Phantom Hourglass, with some updates. Does it truly improve, or just end up feeling more of the same? Well, that'll be the next one...

[kurt91]

I was disappointed by this game. The Zelda game I had played right before this one was Minish Cap, which I really liked. They had gotten this really nice-looking art style figured out, and I was really looking forward to seeing what they'd do with it. I mean, it had the same screen construction style as the Game Boy Zelda games, which I've already said was my favorite, with a very nice look to it. Then we got Phantom Hourglass.

 

I don't know where to start. I didn't like the touch-screen controls, mainly because they felt very inaccurate. When I played the older Zelda games, I liked being able to use the control pad to get pixel-perfect precision control over Link at all times. This one, I felt more like I was just suggesting a general direction for Link to go instead. This even bled into the dungeon designs themselves, feeling kind of dummied down to fit in with the not-as-precise control scheme. I liked how the dungeons in earlier games were designed, these ones just didn't feel like Zelda dungeons anymore. Usually, each room held it's own challenge, whether it was a battle of some sort or a puzzle. These ones were designed by floor rather than room, so a two-floor dungeon just felt like two really big rooms.

 

While I didn't like the Temple of the Ocean King, I will agree with you that it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. Just like a normal Zelda dungeon where new opportunities come up upon obtaining the dungeon item, new routes and shortcuts become available to you upon return trips because of the new equipment. It still suffered the problems in design that I mentioned in the last paragraph, but the revisited rooms did go by somewhat shorter when you had to come back.

 

I actually preferred the sailing mechanics in this game over the ones in Wind Waker. This one, I could just focus on the things around me and I never felt too vulnerable while sailing. I could devote all my needed attention towards defending myself with the weapons on hand rather than balancing the sail, the cannon and it's non-existant aiming, the boomerang, etc. all at the same time. If I saw something in the water that needed shot at, I could simply pull out the cannon and shoot at it. With the touch screen to guide my shots, I found myself hitting the target nearly every time.

 

I didn't really like this game, even with the sailing actually done right. It wasn't very enjoyable for me, but it wasn't bad enough that I automatically hated on Spirit Tracks, and I played that one when it came out. Still, this is another game where I played it once, and never touched it again. It didn't give me the feeling of "Holy shit, that was fun!" upon finishing it as much as "Well, there's another Zelda game finished. Now that I'm up to date again, I wonder what's next."

[Avaro]

It is quite a bummer that they didn't come up with good music in Phantom Hourglass. Hearing the same boring themes over and over was bad.

That was quite a good read, TS. I was surprised about your opinion on the Ocean King Temple, but I see where youre coming from.

[Aevin]

I could pretty much just quote kurt's post and be done here.

 

In addition to what he said, I think the biggest thing that bugged me was a lack of real atmosphere in dungeons. As TS said, most of the dungeons felt too similar with few defining characteristics. And the music ... I really dislike the dungeon music for this game. In fact, I didn't like much of any of the music in this game.

 

It wasn't terrible, but it's very near the bottom of my personal list.

[The Satellite]

The music and atmosphere are definitely the two most disappointing aspects of a game I otherwise enjoy. For me, the game mostly manages to distract me from the lack of atmosphere by having otherwise engaging gameplay that I enjoy, then tend to look back and think "That was fun but I can't remember what I just did." The lack of music, however, isn't something gameplay can distract from. If the soundtrack is empty, you're going to notice unless the game is really, really good. Still, Phantom Hourglass isn't without its good music:

 

Linebeck's theme: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kjx9ZlXWIGs

Oshus' themes: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6deG-VwNOMo and http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8ySlNjdqW1o

Phantom Linebeck: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5p7n2qBgu2k

Staff roll: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=J6Mi4GDJZX4

 

The boss theme isn't half-bad either. I just wish the rest of the soundtrack could've been as good. There's a handful of not-boring ones, but they're not great, and then there's the empty ones that drag down the experience. Missed opportunity if ever there was one.

[Aevin]

Yes, those are nice ...  But they play so infrequently they don't really stick out in my memory.  I do love me some character theme remixes, though ...

[The Satellite]

Indeed. Also, just a smallish update: I'm slowly but steadily working on Spirit Tracks, I'm just not investing as much time into it due to the recent contest quest streams. That, and simultaneously working on Kid Icarus: Uprising and Kirby Mass Attack. I'll get through Spirit Tracks ASAP, hopefully, and try not to delay the start of Skyward Sword. Almost done here...

[Nicholas Steel]

No (Immediate) rush. Just keep us updated on progress.