186 replies to this topic

[Saffith]

That is the correct behavior, I promise. Check in the NES game; if you stand along the right wall when fighting Dodongos, they'll rarely hit you because they can't walk there. On the rare occasions when there are statues in the room, they can walk right through them, so it never comes up.

[trudatman]

interesting. I watched some youtubes of NES dodongos and it seems you are right. it still seems like an error (in the original game), but I guess what it really means to me is that some dodongo fights in HowHigh would need to be drastically changed for forward compatibility. very weird behavior, in that the going against the left wall isn't the same. I cannot make sense of it. I like the way it works in 1.90, where he can squeeze between barriers and hug ALL walls, including along the right. what is the benefit of adhering to the original on this, other than "it is what it is?" seems like something that should have stayed "fixed," to me. thanks for your time.

edit: I reread your post on the last page of this thread... yeah, they should swivel at their left, but that isn't quite what I saw in the videos I just watched. when he walks toward the right wall, his nose won't enter the last column of open space, at all, but when he turns, either up or down, pivoting on his left half would mean he'd never travel up or down in the last two columns of open space in the room. do you follow? no part of him will enter the final column, so when he pivots, that would mean his back half was three columns back, so he'd never go up and down either of the last two columns, if it held to the left-side pivoting you described. what a weird boss.

Edited by trudatman, 18 August 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[peteandwally]

[trudatman]

I am 12 and what is this?

[Lightwulf]

Hey, tru!

Been playing your demo. I couldn't figure out how to get 1.90 to work, so I just pulled it up in 2.10.

Interesting gameplay so far! I've been exploring the overworld and found the stick sword, the slingshot(?) and bag, some weird box item (on the dodongo turtle screen) and the boomerang. I would suggest making a picture guide to this thing so that people can look at it to figure out what is what; I have no clue what the box item is that was below the first dodongo turtle.
Also, I've found a few screens where the present(chest) either appears after beating enemies or is already there, and when I slash it, nothing appears (except sometimes a heart or rupee/ammo). Not sure, but I think either a flag 10 is missing or the room type isn't set to Special Item. One such instance is a purple present on the screen down and left from the dodongo turtle; according to your minimap, it's on screen 4F. Another one, but appears after enemies are beaten, is the purple present that appears on 5J. Edit: Another appearing present with nothing in it is on screen 5K, another on 4K, and another on 2H. (I hope I'm reading the map right.) [/Edit]
Not sure if it's a version thing, but I came across a problem. I just found the "title screen" when I saw I could go up from the purple present screen I mentioned. After the title disappeared (when I moved up), I got whatever item it was (looks like a chili pepper) and it took the place of the box item, then I got stuck. I had to quit and save because I couldn't move or swing my sword.

Anyway, it's definitely unique! Nice name for Stick Zelda (assuming this is what Stick Zelda turned into).

BTW, at the beginning, (thank you for putting a fairy fountain there; it's really helped me early in the game) I see signs pointing down from the start and left from the screen down and right from the start that say "PP". I tried slinging a stone at the thing on top of the tree, but nothing happened. What's PP stand for? Did I miss something?

Edited by Lightwulf, 06 September 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[trudatman]

....I just pulled it up in 2.10....

I'm surprised it worked as well for you as it did.

....stick sword, the slingshot(?) and bag, some weird box item (on the dodongo turtle screen) and the boomerang. I would suggest making a picture guide to this thing so that people can look at it to figure out what is what; I have no clue what the box item is that was below the first dodongo turtle....

getting things to look like stuff seems to be the struggle with this quest. I feel like the things look like what they are supposed to represent, but it is clear that it does not hold universally. you got the bag for carrying stones, the stick, the bag of marijuana (which you then rolled into a joint of two hits at the rolling papers -- this is where you got stuck in what i assume is a version incompatibility problem), the boomerang.... did you get something from the digdogger and/or in that area? I forget what stuff is in the newest section, but I think there is something NorthWest the digdogger, too.

....I've found a few screens where the present(chest) either appears after beating enemies or is already there, and when I slash it, nothing appears (except sometimes a heart or rupee/ammo)....

this stuff is working as it should. I will likely reduce the prevalence of these things as the quest becomes more complete, but for now they make it a bit easier to press forward and see the full content, as you can always double back and refill with them.

....I see signs pointing down from the start and left from the screen down and right from the start that say "PP". I tried slinging a stone at the thing on top of the tree, but nothing happened. What's PP stand for?...

wow. I am continually surprised that these things aren't clear, but I do understand that as the creator, I already know what things are. as a player seeing this stuff for the first time, I figure what it looks most like is the English letter 'p,' so that's what you continue to see it as. those are signs warning you of bees.

thanks for playing this. did you get all the way to the final title screen below the digdogger? got any suggestions or ideas for further expansion? was there anything that seemed wrong enough that I should remove it or alter it drastically? thanks for your time!

[Lightwulf]

About the items, just provide a guide (a separate file, probably PDF or a text file that can have pictures, and include it with the demo in a ZIP file) that shows what the items look like with a matching description of what they are/what they're for.

Oh, and I think you mean "dodongo" instead of "digdogger". Digdogger is the giant ball that's hurt with the whistle; dodongo is the one you beat with bombs.
I couldn't find any bombs to battle the turtles (dodongos) with, so I just passed them over. One time I got bombs from an enemy, but I chose "Retry" when I got killed further on and forgot I had found the bombs.

The presents, though they didn't provide any special items, did provide life-saving hearts sometimes. Since there were no bushes or slashable tall grass, those presents came in handy from time to time (when they didn't give me nothing, that is). (If I had an un-passworded quest file, or the password to this one, I could see what's going on, fix it, and let you know the details of what I found. If you want, you could PM either to me.)

Yeah, if you made the things on the signs that look like "P"s into the same color as the bees, then their meaning might be clearer.
So what was on top of the trees, just beehives? I couldn't do anything to them.

Yes, I just got to the end of the demo; then I went back to the second area with bees, beat them, and got the cell phone (whistle). I couldn't figure out if you had a use for it, though.

"Wrong enough that [you] should remove it"? The lanmola near the beginning. That thing deals 2 hearts worth of damage. Either remove the lanmola or remove the slow-walk that covers the entire screen. I often got either killed by it or reduced to one heart, forcing me to forage around for hearts.

BTW, with only 3 hearts, I could not stand a chance against (well, the lanmola for one) the gohma and bees on the same screen, or the gleeok enemy. Why did you put slow walkability over those screens? They're hard enough without Link being slow; at least, unless you plan on putting more heart containers in this demo. Plus, I ran across some invisible enemies after the police car/Aquamentus and the screen before it. The screen before it, I could only survive by using the boomerang to detect where the enemy was. If the "amulet" was supposed to be obtained from the turtle dodongo (just guessing), you need to provide bombs somewhere. Anyway, I got killed by those invisible enemies (after the police car) before I could beat them, so I don't know what's after them. Did you put the amulet in this demo?

Now, when you mention "further expansion", it brings to mind that you need to put shortcuts in this thing; shortcuts that can be opened after you've gone the long way around. It could be as simple as giving the player the bracelet at one point so he can move some of the rocks to find a shortcut; making a shortcut by placing a boomerang target that's out of reach to the level 1 boomerang but not the level 2 boomerang. Placing these here and there will greatly decrease the frustration of the players from getting killed and having to go through the whole darn thing all over again. (Yeah, I got frustrated a number of times, but I kept going 'cause I wanted to give you feedback on the whole thing. Others may just get frustrated and quit playing it.) As long as you include shortcuts at certain intervals, you could continue your expansion in a spiral as you have it.

One thing I don't understand, though, is that I didn't find any dungeons. Are you just not going to have dungeons?

You could include whistle warps as shortcuts, but those only work if you have Triforce pieces. If you don't want to bother with other types of shortcuts, you could introduce the whistle earlier on (maybe after beating the first hive of bees) and have Triforce pieces (maybe in the shape of a music note to denote a new song or something, or look like a phone number on a piece of paper) hidden in caves with the corresponding DMap numbers. Having them on the overworld wouldn't do much since the overworld is level 0; the DMap they're on must have a level number to correspond with the number in the whistle warp editor. So, unless you'll be including dungeons along the way, you could at least place the pieces in caves, allowing the player to whistle for a shortcut once they get a new one.

[trudatman]

....Oh, and I think you mean "dodongo" instead of "digdogger"...

I did not. this post makes it much clearer that the quest is not playable in 2.1s. I can now see all of the things that went horribly wrong. I'm sorry you saw it like this!

....If I had an un-passworded quest file, or the password to this one, I could see what's going on....

all of my quests share the password of 723, but none of them should be played in 2.1s.

....Yeah, if you made the things on the signs that look like "P"s into the same color as the bees, then their meaning might be clearer....

good point. I intend to look into doing that.

....So what was on top of the trees, just beehives?...

yep.

....Yes, I just got to the end of the demo; then I went back to the second area with bees, beat them, and got the cell phone (whistle). I couldn't figure out if you had a use for it, though....

so, here is where I think we see the start of real incompatibility issues. was this the 300 bee boss room or elsewhere? the boss room should give a triforce piece and the whistle should then allow access to Gannon. I suspect the second set of bees you refer to here are a wrongly placed enemy. 2.1s moved the enemies around, causing old quests to fail to play correctly. it is one of the worst mistakes any Zelda Classic/Zquest developer ever made, but it is what it is. only use 2.1s for quests made in 2.1s. close to zero other quests will be compatible, even if they seem to be.

....The lanmola near the beginning. That thing deals 2 hearts worth of damage. Either remove the lanmola or remove the slow-walk that covers the entire screen. I often got either killed by it or reduced to one heart, forcing me to forage around for hearts.

none of this seems right. there should only be one hill of slow walking near the beginning and it should be inhabited by snakes.

....BTW, with only 3 hearts, I could not stand a chance against (well, the lanmola for one) the gohma and bees on the same screen, or the gleeok enemy. Why did you put slow walkability over those screens? They're hard enough without Link being slow; at least, unless you plan on putting more heart containers in this demo. Plus, I ran across some invisible enemies after the police car/Aquamentus and the screen before it. The screen before it, I could only survive by using the boomerang to detect where the enemy was. If the "amulet" was supposed to be obtained from the turtle dodongo (just guessing), you need to provide bombs somewhere. Anyway, I got killed by those invisible enemies (after the police car) before I could beat them, so I don't know what's after them. Did you put the amulet in this demo?...

almost all of this stuff should be very different in ANY other version of the player.

....you need to put shortcuts in this thing; shortcuts that can be opened after you've gone the long way around....

I plan to. maybe the hammer or the bracelet(s). there will also be the whistle item in use, for sure.

....One thing I don't understand, though, is that I didn't find any dungeons. Are you just not going to have dungeons?...

no dungeons, no text, no layers, no money, no shops....

please try this whole short demo again in ANY other version of the Zelda Classic player. 2.1x was the cause of all of your troubles. thanks, again, for your time!

[Lightwulf]

Well okay then, I'll try and get one of the old versions to work.

BTW, when I said second area with bees, that was my mistake; technically I meant the third area with bees. I didn't beat the second one (the "300" bee boss room) so I didn't think of it nor count it at the time I typed that in my post. I completely bypassed that one because there was slow walk combos everywhere and I knew I needed regular speed or more heart containers to beat that gohma.

Now that you gave me the code, I think I see what was going on. I don't know what happened, but the slow walk slanted hill has 1 blue lanmola (the fastest one) and is set for 9 other ropes. (I don't remember more than 6 ropes at a time, but that's not a problem.) The screen to the left of that one does, indeed, have a dodongo enemy. I went further, and found that the second 300 bee boss room is set to have Digdogger Kid (4) (which looked just like the "moldorm bees") and a red gohma. Not sure if that was intended; however, it makes me think I may have a chance at beating them now. I also found out that, on the screen with the other slanted slow-walk hill (the narrower one after passing the "300" sign), that it is set to have 9 ropes appear, but the 6th slot is set to "(None)", so I'm not sure if that's why I didn't see 9 ropes or if you can only have a limited number of ropes. The screen to the right of that one (where the hill continues but the screen is much more open) has the exact same enemy setup.
So, my comments about nothing in the purple presents were verified; it looks like you didn't put any items in them, except for one I didn't get to because it's below the screen with the bunch of invisible enemies after the Aquamentus. (BTW, that was a sly place to put the Amulet. I hadn't even seen it during gameplay, but it's right there! I was freaking out for nothing.) All the red presents had items, so it seems those worked as well.
So, at the end screen of the demo it's set for one dodongo enemy, and 2 screens above that (where you have the wand item appear) there's a 4-headed gleeok enemy surrounded by slow walk combos. Were any of those intended? (I guess I'll find out eventually, once I've downloaded the older version, but I just thought I'd ask.)

So, this is how it loaded into version 2.10, whether that's how you designed it or not. Version 1.90 is not working on my computer (I have Windows XP), even when I run it from a command prompt, so I guess I'll have to get version 1.92 then...

Edit: I just noticed the list of enemies in your post on the previous page of this thread (if you're viewing 15 posts per page). One thing you didn't include there was digdogger kids. You listed the digdogger, but not the kids. Just FYI.

Edited by Lightwulf, 06 September 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[trudatman]

2.50(4) should work pretty well, too, aside from leaving the 300 bees room and possibly being able to bypass the warp back to the main map, due to an incompatibility. using 1.9s and 2.5s, the enemies will be VERY different from what you are seeing in 2.10. stop using 2.1s for this quest, please, as they jumble the enemies quite a lot. there are none other than listed in the previous post you mentioned. that list does detail the smaller digdoggers. thanks for putting all of this time and effort into giving me feedback, but do please cease using the incompatible player and the incompatible editor.

Edited by trudatman, 06 September 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Lightwulf]

Hey! I downloaded the later 1.92 release. What a difference! :blush: The blue lanmola I'd met was actually just a super rope. Where I'd met a gohma and "digdogger kid (4)" was actually the bee moldorms and 2 patra-circle-type enemies! The dodongo turtles were in the same places, though. And, where I'd found a 4-headed gleeok before, it was the digdogger you were talking about. Oh, and where you placed the cracktorock enemy (that surprised me, actually), I had previously met just a red bubble and the boomerang was just sitting on the ground; thank goodness I'm not using 2.10 for this anymore! A bunch of stones and I defeated it okay.

When I started ZC 1.92, it automatically put it in full screen mode (because I clicked on the file itself, not the link in the Start menu; no biggie), so I was able to see more of the details you put in this thing. After beating the cop car (Aquamentus), I saw that the car actually screeched and crashed! So that's why there's a ghini-type enemy when I tried to walk on it!
However, I was just about to the end of the demo when I tried to pull up the spacebar map, and ZC crashed on me. Oh well, at least I know where the end of the demo is and that I was almost there. At least I was able to get more than last time; I found the amulet this time.

Still, it would be nice if you made heart containers available so that the player isn't going against 2 patras + moldorms, all in the same room, with just 3 hearts.

Overall, it wasn't as frustrating this time; primarily, I'm sure, because the enemies weren't mixed up by 2.10, so they were the enemies you intended. I'd only complain about the cracktorok if I didn't have the stones to throw at it from a distance; if it weren't for that, I wouldn't have made the player face one until the player had either more hearts or better equipment (i.e. sword, ring, shield). But, it was only one, and could be hit from a distance, so I'd say that's fine. (I didn't dare let the thing hit me; I know it must be instant death.)
The purple presents still didn't have any special items in them. If you intended them that way, ... it's okay; like I said before, since they act just like bushes, they come in handy sometimes. (On the screen where you had the room set and special item as 5 rupees, you didn't have flag 10 set to the present combo in the secret combos window.)
And I dare say that the bee areas are challenging (the first and third, mainly; the second one is too hard, for me, with only 3 hearts, level 1 sword and no rings). Multiple moldorms make it challenging to not get hit, and they're slow enough that it's not too hard to avoid them while the terrain has obstacles so they're not too easy. Nice job on those!

[trudatman]

Hey! I downloaded the later 1.92 release. What a difference!....thank goodness I'm not using 2.10 for this anymore!...

yeah. I'm sorry I forgot to disclaim use of that build in the first post. 2.10 was the cause of all of your troubles, except for the spacebar crash bug in 1.92. did the 183 player fix that, or am I confused? I've never used any 1.92s, so I don't know if any of them have the working map action, but they should because that option is key.

....it would be nice if you made heart containers available so that the player isn't going against 2 patras + moldorms, all in the same room, with just 3 hearts.

yep. that is essentially the end of the demo boss room, at this point. yeah, it is early in the progression of scenes, but they idea is that you will go back and beat them when you are better equipped. I do, however, believe that it is currently possible to beat that room. I don't exactly expect anybody to do it, but if you get the whistle item and then beat the 300 bees, Gannon is theoretically available to visit. as the game expands, heart container items will be made available, I think. if not, the ring items and sword upgrade items will keep the balance. I am not at all worried about my ability to maintain a fair balance of difficulty throughout the quest; I think it is a strong suit of mine.

....The purple presents still didn't have any special items in them. If you intended them that way, ... it's okay; like I said before, since they act just like bushes, they come in handy sometimes. (On the screen where you had the room set and special item as 5 rupees, you didn't have flag 10 set to the present combo in the secret combos window.)

yeah. the purple presents have rocks and health bars (should these be apples?) and they will likely stay that way. I do intend to reduce the frequency of these chests combos, though. they currently are in place to hold the difficulty balance where it is. eventually, the beginning will be a bit harder, mostly through the reduction of these things. I want the demo to be relatively easy.

....the bee areas are challenging (the first and third, mainly; the second one is too hard, for me, with only 3 hearts, level 1 sword and no rings). Multiple moldorms make it challenging to not get hit, and they're slow enough that it's not too hard to avoid them while the terrain has obstacles so they're not too easy. Nice job on those!

thanks. moldorms are super easy, it's the patras that are hard. if you keep swinging the stick, the moldorm bees will never sting. the patras are essentially the boss of the demo. the only currently available triforce piece is received from them. I have not successfully tested it (I haven't rreally put the effort in, yet), but if you beat them, the whistle item should bring you to Gannon. I figure as this expands, beating the last available boss will allow travel to Gannon's room. when the thing is done, the whistle warp will likely be gone and a triforce check room will likely be an obstacle.

thanks, again, for playing, commenting and discussing these things with me. I very much appreciate the assistance and feedback. if you have more to add, please continue. I invite anybody else that is reading this thread and/or playing this demo to chime in.

[trudatman]

....if you made the things on the signs that look like "P"s into the same color as the bees, then their meaning might be clearer....

I played this today and the bees on the signs are colored like the actual bees.

[Lightwulf]

yeah. I'm sorry I forgot to disclaim use of that build in the first post. 2.10 was the cause of all of your troubles, except for the spacebar crash bug in 1.92. did the 183 player fix that, or am I confused? I've never used any 1.92s, so I don't know if any of them have the working map action, but they should because that option is key.
... health bars (should these be apples?)...
...
thanks. moldorms are super easy, it's the patras that are hard. if you keep swinging the stick, the moldorm bees will never sting. the patras are essentially the boss of the demo. ...
...
thanks, again, for playing, commenting and discussing these things with me. I very much appreciate the assistance and feedback. if you have more to add, please continue. I invite anybody else that is reading this thread and/or playing this demo to chime in.

Oh, the spacebar map worked; it just crashed on me that one time. I hadn't quit-saved it in a while either; not sure if that affects anything.

Health bars do make sense; it's not a problem to keep them that way, since this is supposed to be a stick figure quest. However, if you don't mind changing how the item looks, apples might look better than health bars. They would make more sense, too.

Yeah, that's what's nice about the difficulty of your quest here - the moldorms. However, if I were you, I'd only put 1 patra with the moldorms in the boss room; it's more difficult to watch out for 2 of them and the moldorms. ... Actually, I'd either make it 1 patra + moldorms, or you could go with 2 patras and no moldorms. Reason why is the patras take off a lot. I got instantly killed once by one of the patra eyes, but I might've had only 2 (or 1 and a half) hearts (hard to tell with the health bar).

I played this today and the bees on the signs are colored like the actual bees.

That quote you quoted me from was a while ago. I thought you fixed that after I posted it... or is it just me? If you didn't fix it, then maybe that quote was from when I was playing it in version 2.10; the pallette for the sign might've been altered by the incompatible version.
But you're right; it is yellow now.

[trudatman]

I worked on this a bit today. added a new item. changed a bunch of sprites. fixed a few errors. didn't expand the map any, but did prepare a new demo. I just now remembered that I meant to make sure the leaving-the-boss-room trigger wasn't skipable in 2.50(4). oops. not a big deal. wrote it down for the next time I work on this. I'm not even sure it is a problem, but it could be. anyway, the major change was to Sticky's attire. I like him better this way (my girlfriend does, too), but you may not. feel free to check it out and leave comments.

[broken link removed - see first post for current demo download link]

Edited by trudatman, 30 June 2013 - 04:59 PM.