142 replies to this topic

[Matthew]

not sure if this is a spoiler, since we all known Carrie Fisher died, but just to be safe...

 

Spoiler

how are they going to write leia out of the plot? i was expecting her to die in TLJ but she didn't.

Edited by Matthew, 21 December 2017 - 10:53 PM.

[Russ]

Spoiler

I'm imagining that the next movie will take place a few years later, at least far enough in the future that the kid from the end will be old enough to be relevant. Then, they can simply explain that Leia died of old age in the meantime.

[ywkls]

Spoiler

Zoria probably means Leia since Luke and Han are dead in the Star Wars universe. Which is now weird because the actors who play Luke and Han are alive in real life, but Carrie Fisher sadly passed away late last year.

 

Not everyone has seen the movie and knows these details.

There are some who might read this topic who would feel that their experience of the movie was ruined by reading this,

Please keep this in mind.

 

Also...

Spoiler

Luke returning like Yoda does is definitely a strong possibility.

Then again, Yoda did say that Rey needs nothing the ancient Jedit texts could teach her.

In many ways, writing the original characters out is something that the EU failed to do and actually caused the authors to paint themselves into corners because no matter what insane foe they faced; they came off unscathed. (And we all know about the backlash from the death of Chewie in Vector Prime.)

By having this happen, it really shows that despite their strengths; these are just people who can make mistakes and die.

That also seems to be the emphasis of the fight between Kylo and Luke.

While the idea seems to be at first that Luke survived the barrage without a scratch; in the end it's all a clever ruse.

He does the same thing Obi-wan did on the Death Star; only without even having to be there.

In many ways, that's even cooler.

Edited by ywkls, 22 December 2017 - 12:46 AM.

[Mitsukara]

I've been reading this thread, but that's because I don't really feel like a spoiler would ruin the film for me necessarily. I'm not sure what I expect and my enthusiasm/interest is somewhere in the middle on this (I love the original trilogy, and the Thrawn Trilogy, but I grew up with the prequels and I don't care much about them, I think The Clone Wars tv show was better written than the prequels in the parts I saw but haven't gotten around to watching the whole thing, I've only watched one episode of Rebels so far, etc).

 

Also my brain has a 'hey that sounds like a spoiler gonna stop reading the sentence now to lose the context' filter, so that helps with spoilers.

 

I do think it's a good idea to put it all in spoiler blocks though, even though it means there's barely been anything to read.

 

Without having seen the film, though, here's a bit of speculation about what I thought I maybe heard:

Spoiler

There's two obvious things I really gotta point about if Luke dies:

- Force ghosts. Even dead Luke could be in episode IX plenty. Obi Wan was in Return of the Jedi, after all.

- The cast listing information previously seen on Wookiepedia and Wikipedia listed Mark Hamill being in Episode IX. Carrie Fisher was supposed to be too (allegedly she was going to get more focus in that movie than these two; alas), but supposedly will not be now.

 

To say nothing of whether they did anything at all to make any possible death nebulous. This is technically a setting where Darth Maul got cut in half and then came back with robo-spider legs somehow, and it's definitely a setting where Darth Vader became a quadruple amputee on fire sitting by some magma for several minutes/an indeterminately long time. Luke's been through quite a lot already, with his wampa injuries and his hand and stuff.

 

Also, one of the guess-the-plot-in-advance things bouncing around in my head wast hat episode IX might end with another three happy ghosts shot, except for some reason it's Luke and Leia and Han this time. Han presumably couldn't manifest as a ghost on his own, but Yoda did say some weird stuff back in ESB about seeing "old friends long gone", and the exact nature of force powers is still up for expansion anyway, so Rei or whoever could see a ghost of him (especially for a single brief shot like that) without any plot trouble I think. The bigger problem would be how (or if) they would include Carrie Fisher in such a shot; maybe they could use some deleted footage of her from episode VII (she had some whole scenes missing) or something, if it's just a silent shot of some ghosts. I dunno.

 

In any case, I don't really expect great things from these movies, but it could be fun and I doubt it'll be terrible or anything.

 

Speaking of animation, I still kinda hope that once the sequel trilogy and Rebels are both done, that they might make a third show in the Clone Wars/Rebels vein, but set in the earlier aftermath of Return of the Jedi, involving Luke and Han and Leia and Lando. (For that style of show they don't need the original actors if they're unavailable, or deceased, because they already established a precedent of recasting much younger and more desperate actors; Haydn Christiansen wasn't in The Clone Wars show as Anakin, nor Ewan McGregor as Obi Wan.) Also: I hope Thrawn survives Rebels (I haven't seen him in Rebels yet but I'm glad it exists) and is somehow involved in this hypothetical show. Basically, some more upbeat adventures for the original trilogy heroes and stuff about their associates. Admiral Ackbar and Mon Mothma subplots and whatever. It might eventually lead up to the Kylo Ren thing but hopefully it would be set long before the major developments of that mess.

 

Speaking of original cast members... are they ever going to get Billy Dee Williams for the sequel trilogy?! They better put him in episode IX. He's not in VIII, right?

 

As far as my own preferences on Star Wars canon, I don't ascribe wholeheartedly to any continuity where Han and Leia have some kinda evil darkside son. That rules out both of them ^^ I generally like to imagine a setting where the darkest part of the war was over in Return of the Jedi, and it's more of a gradual mending process with lesser warlords and political disputes as they work their way towards peace. And then succeed. Screw the Yuuzahn Vong or whatever, that's depressing and dumb and makes the whole thing feel pointless and blech.

 

I know it says "Wars" right there in the title, but remember the old first novelization title, "Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker"? The first film was conceived as an adventure in an upbeat serial of adventures, possibly even a war that was meant to be basically over after the destruction of the Death Star, not like, "in the grim darkness of the 41st millenniumlong, long ago there iswas only war" or somesuch. I get a little tired of Star Wars works that constantly try to up the ante on the 'darkness', and that's basically my only real complaint about episode VII which I otherwise really liked. (Especially Finn and Rey, they're both awesome in my opinion.)

 

Then again, I have fairly domestic tastes sometimes- I like there to be a big conflict at some point, but then to have it resolved and the feeling that things will genuinely recover afterwards, and even to see the recovery and t he aftermath. I would probably watch a hypothetical "Star Peace", a slice of life comedy sequel to Star Wars. But I think Star Trek needs that concept a lot more, since so much of it was claiming to be set in peace time and it often seemed the writers had no idea how to actually represent things as peaceful or functional.

Edited by Mitsukara, 22 December 2017 - 04:23 AM.

[Cukeman]

last cast member dicsussion

 

Zoria probably means Leia since Luke and Han are dead in the Star Wars universe. Which is now weird because the actors who play Luke and Han are alive in real life, but Carrie Fisher sadly passed away late last year.

 

 

That was my thought, but then I realized the actors behind 3PO, Chewie, Yoda, Lando and Vader are still around.

 

Edited by Cukeman, 22 December 2017 - 06:33 AM.

[Mitsukara]

Which was your thought? An animated series with recast actors? I don't think Frank Oz played Yoda in Clone wars either, though I'm not sure. I know they got Billy Dee Williams to be Lando in Rebels once though.

 

As for Anthony Daniels, I like to think that he's got it written in his will to be buried in a C3PO suit (or, technology allowing, to become a real cyborg and an actual expert on human-cyborg relations). I'm not sure that man has ever turned down any proper request to play the part.  The "Christmas in the Stars" music album (in character!), Monopoly Star Wars, Star Wars Underoos commercials,  Attack of the Clones...

 

(including that last one was a joke, I apologize.)

Edited by Mitsukara, 22 December 2017 - 06:29 AM.

[Cukeman]

more discussion

Not worried about a reason for Leia not being there, just say she's elsewhere or dead. The difficult part is changing the script to work without her.
 

Speaking of animation, I still kinda hope that once the sequel trilogy and Rebels are both done, that they might make a third show in the Clone Wars/Rebels vein, but set in the earlier aftermath of Return of the Jedi, involving Luke and Han and Leia and Lando...

This now seems very possible, and would be our chance to learn about Snoke's rise to power, or entering the spotlight from hiding or whatever. I'd be surprised if they didn't explore that in an animated show.
 

Speaking of original cast members... are they ever going to get Billy Dee Williams for the sequel trilogy?! They better put him in episode IX. He's not in VIII, right?

I think everyone's hoping to see him.

On a non-spoiler topic, how did Anakin become a force ghost? No one taught him the technique.

[Mitsukara]

I've wondered about Anakin's ghostiness myself (other than the boring/obvious 'it was a retcon that it needs to be learned' answer), and one interpretation I kind of like is that it's not so much that you need to use a special technique to be a ghost, but rather, a special technique to initiate contact with the living as a ghost. So basically, Luke is able to see Anakin by way of his own powers, but Anakin couldn't have contacted Luke under his own power the way Obi Wan did on Hoth or back in the Death Star trench.

 

At least, that's one way it seems like it could work, and I like it.

[Cukeman]

Something along those lines could be interesting. It was a lot simpler back when it was just something great Jedis did, lol

Edited by Cukeman, 22 December 2017 - 01:19 PM.

[Mitsukara]

Another idea that just occurred to me, regarding possibilities of Luke being ambiguously mortally wounded in some way... I have no idea if this is even still possible and they probably wouldn't do it (especially since it kinda undermines the point of getting Mark Hammill onscreen- although he does favor voice work, riiiiight?), but... imagine some situation where Luke gets wounded badly enough, but survives, that he needs a mechanical breathing apparatus. Preferably a face covering one. Maybe some cybernetic limbs too, eheheh. So he's got this spooky breathing (except he's not trying to sound badass or anything, so it's just labored and a little pained sounding), and this mecha-face and whatever (no sinister armor though obviously, just the practical medical part), but he's still, you know, Luke, still doing the whole light side thing. And I bet Kylo Ren would get all weirded out by it, too, given his sorta cargo culty Vader worship.

 

I'm sure that's been thought of before, and like I said I have no clue if it would really work or ever happen, but it's fun to think about. I thought of it because his longer hair kinda reminds me of Episode III Anakin (who was really pretty IMO, by the way).

Edited by Mitsukara, 22 December 2017 - 03:44 PM.

[Cukeman]

reactions

Wow, so many people whose reviews I've always respected for the most part are really hating on this movie. I don't know what they're smoking. This movie is incredible. These negative reviews are really bothering me. Just trying to avoid them.

 

EDIT: No worries if you didn't like it.

Edited by Cukeman, 23 December 2017 - 04:25 PM.

[Cukeman]

BB8

Oh yeah, the moment when the casino guards toss out BB8 was a great callback to the "We don't serve their kind in here!" treatment of robots, LOL

 

another thing

Someone pointed out that dropping bombs on the dreadnought makes no sense in zero gravity... I'd try to think of some workaround like they magnetized to the ship or something, but why even drop bombs in the first place instead of shoot bombs? hmmm...

Edited by Cukeman, 26 December 2017 - 12:34 AM.

[Cukeman]

...trying to get fans out of the "must focus on Skywalker family" mindset.

 

Now that you mention it the whole Rey and Kylo fighting over Luke's lightsaber and holding onto relics like Vader's helmet is calling out SW fans hanging on to the past, not wanting things to change or all-new characters to rise up.

 

ep8 content

The scene where Luke's saber is ripped in two is a perfect metaphor for PT and OT fans arguing about the direction the series should go.

 

Now I'm definitely an OT fan, but I'm definitely not in the camp of "OT rocks 7-9 suck"

Edited by Cukeman, 27 December 2017 - 05:22 PM.

[The Satellite]

Very good movie. I need some time to digest it in order to determine where it stands overall for me, but I definitely at the very least like it a hell of a lot. The way it tries new things, puts spin on familiar things, and breaks the mold for the future of Star Wars, it was a fresh experience. I know a lot of people seem to hate it now (for some reason) but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up like Empire Strikes Back, which too was polarizing at launch but is now the most-revered Star Wars film.

 

Now to dive into the nitty-gritty.

 

Spoiler

Right off the bat, I'm gonna get my biggest concern out of the way, and that's how Luke was portrayed. I think if this were any other character in existence, it would be absolutely perfect. But Luke? The guy who never gave up despite the odds, who saw the good in Vader until the very end, suddenly makes one mistake and he bugs out to go hermit mode? I don't even hate the idea of him having a momentary weakness that led to the misunderstanding that ruined the Jedi Order revival, but I hate that he basically abandoned the galaxy he once saved and the friends and family he loved and fought alongside. It'd be different if they followed up on that plot thread of him specifically seeking the First Jedi Temple if he found some new secret or knowledge in there that allowed him to return to the roots of what a Jedi was before coming back stronger. Ultimately I like his plot arc in the film... if I separate it from the Luke that came before. It just... seems so unlike him.

 

I also am not entirely sure what his death was about. Did he just exert himself with that projection to the point he had nothing left? That would make the most sense, but he gets up first after collapsing, which makes me uncertain.

 

And I wanted to see him wield the green lightsaber in battle one last time.

 

But even with that aside, there's so much else that makes the movie great. The development of our characters, the subversion of our expectations, the unique framing device of taking place around a singular event... It was different and it was excellent. Admittedly, while it seems at odds with the mystery The Force Awakens tried to build up, I loved that Rey's parents turned out to be nobodies; assholes, even. I was actually waiting for the reveal, wondering if she somehow really would tie in to some big mystery, but when they gave the reveal I was like "... huh, they actually went that way. Neat."

 

Was absolutely certain Admiral Holdo was going to end up the traitor, but it makes sense in the end she came off that way: If there's a mole, she doesn't want the plan to end up known to the First Order. And then she made up for it with that awesome spectacle of a maneuver.

 

Snoke's death... loved it. Him narrating every action was kind of silly, but the way Kylo pulled it off was clever and excellent. ... but now I'm just left wondering who the hell Snoke was. He was introduced in The Force Awakens as this enigmatic dark side master, ripe for speculation about who or what he was. And then... without so much of a hint as to his history or his accomplishments, he's just dead. I don't need him to be Darth Plagueis and especially not a Palpatine clone or something stupid like that, I just want to know who he is! Is that so much to ask? Again, love the death, hate the lack of explanation. People have tried to argue Palpatine was similar but I disagree. Palpatine was built up to, mentioned in A New Hope, given a glimpse via hologram in Empire Strikes Back, and finally we get to see him in Return of the Jedi, beautifully acted by Ian McDiarmid and delightfully sinister. We knew who he was, even if we don't know how he got there. Snoke... we don't know a damn thing. He's just there to fill a role. Palpatine's comeuppance was great because we knew he controlled the galaxy, controlled Vader, and was actively killing Luke. Snoke's comeuppance didn't leave quite the same impact because he was just some old dark side crone from the edges of space who lured Kylo Ren to him; and it's shown that Luke's mistake may have had more to do with that than Snoke anyway.

 

Loved every minute of Yoda's appearance although something looked off about the puppet, in the face. Not sure what it was, maybe I'd have to look again, but they apparently made a new one from the same mold as the original, even had the same woman paint his eyes. Still though, there was just something oddly jarring about him. Maybe it'd go away if I saw it again, who knows. Still, happy to see Yoda, happy to hear him, it was a good scene.

 

The Temple caretakers were an odd race that seemingly came out of nowhere. Wasn't Rey there for a couple days by the time they appeared? How did she not run into them beforehand? In fact, the way they appear, it's almost as if they did just materialize out of nowhere. I don't mind them existing but they appeared from nowhere. Would've liked to see a bit more plot relevance though, especially if they've been there taking care of the Temple for millennia.

 

While I see the argument for the casino thing being pointless, I liked it enough. Diving into the moral ambiguities of war briefly, and also building up Poe's own flaws since this whole thing was his idea and a big jumping of the gun. Although, apparently Force-sensitive or not, that ending scene with the boy did seem kind of odd. Guess it depends on if that scene results in anything, whether the next film or a future trilogy, but I suppose I can't say it isn't relevant to the core of the film's message: Let the past die, the new will rise up.

 

Could just be me, but BB-8 seems to be too decked out at times. Like, more than prequel R2-D2. Does he really have that much room in there for all those gadgets?

 

Oh, good to see Phasma is still completely worthless as a character.

 

I've spent so long typing this post while also discussing with friends I feel like I've run out of points to talk about. Maybe more will come back later, I'm not sure, but this is all I can get out right now. Covered most of the major stuff I believe, so this'll do for now.

[Cukeman]

reply to TS

Yay! I like reading your thoughtful reflections on stuff. Was especially excited for this one as you know a lot of SW stuff beyond the movies.

 

I certainly expected to learn some new truth(s) about the Jedi order from the texts, but I guess they just fall in line with what we know, presumably. Trailer really made me think Luke learned some unsettling truth about the Order's origins.

 

I feel there was exertion, but also a moment of physical recovery, joy and peace before becoming one with the Force. Like he had reached a point of transcendence, rather than a physical death. So I feel it's both, kind of. (Hey, you try explaining the metaphysical)

 

Rey's parents may be nobodies... but her grandparents... 

I hope we don't go there, but it's just maybe a possibility (I hope not though)

 

Do you buy the theory that Snoke wanted Kylo to kill him at that moment to complete his dark side training?

(the whole Sith always kill their master thing)

 

When Yoda first appeared I thought he was CG and looked off, then it the next scene in front of the flames it looked like they switched to a puppet identical to RotJ... I even thought I saw hairs on his head that were missing from his initial appearance. Hard to judge from one viewing but that's what I thought I saw.

 

I could have done without the caretakers (frog nuns) I guess maybe they live underwater, but then their robes are dry so... somebody else can figure that one out. I'll just pretend they weren't there.

 

I really thought the codebreaker they end up with was going to be the one they were looking for, and that he just lost his flower medallion gambling, so that guy at the tables wearing it was somebody else. I really thought that's where they were going

 

Edited by Cukeman, 28 December 2017 - 03:45 AM.