186 replies to this topic

[Hergiswi]

I have to respectfully disagree with most of what Giggidy is saying. Personally, I love the minimalism, both in graphics and explanation of what to do; it's very 90s-esque. I'll admit that I didn't understand the point of the health bar before reading trudatman's post, but at the same time, I also never thought of it as a potential issue. The bottom-of-the-tree thing is slightly confusing; it's easy to catch on to how they work, but adding a slight bit of grass to the bottom wouldn't hurt.

The one point I would probably have to agree with is the sprites. Not the enemies, because I think they're fine as is (also, was that cracktorock supposed to be next to a knocked over container of radiation? because that's how I interpreted it). The items, however, are slightly confusing. I get the stick, and I understand that the randomly appearing "treasure chests" look like gifts. Namely, it's the item that increases your overall health and some sort of box with green in it that threw me off. Perhaps just slight alterations could make them a little clearer.

Anyway, I'm digging the quest so far, and I'll play more of the demo tomorrow.

[trudatman]

yeah. I totally agree with the assessment(s) y'all have given the medicine series of items. in Zelda, it's letter->woman->potion2->potion1->letter. the sprites in this quests are supposed to be a bag of pot->rolling papers->joint->roach->bag of pot. the spriting is bad. I would consider giving up this concept. really, I want the box of rolling papers to be empty after using the last one (the only one left when you get there), but I haven't come up with a way to secure permanence for the multiple screens that I used in order to roll that joint.

I am looking forward to further comments. thanks for playing and posting!

[Giggidy]

you can't get stones before the bag. if you managed to do that, please explain how you did it. circle versus oval, pointless distinction, I guess. "Sticks And Stones." ...your first two weapons. I guess I think those items are obvious.

I killed an enemy that dropped them. Several enemies, actually. I had like 20 rocks by the time I got the bag.

so I "need" scripting for proper execution of my health meter design goal? um, why? it seems to have baffled you enough without it, just as I intended. I feel like you are trying to find ways to dismiss the whole quest outright. I'm not mad or anything, I just think you are letting the frustration(s) translate incorrectly into failure(s) in the aspects that don't directly relate to the "I can't tell what this item is" issues.

I hope you will expound on your last point. what does 1.90 have to do with having multiple enemies look similar or the same? I just do not understand the point, so if you could get a bit verbose, maybe I can follow what your point is at the end there a bit better.

Umm, because your current implementation creates frustration rather than uncertain panic and paranoia?

As much as I hate those games, a great example of how to pull off (part of) what you want is what most modern FPSes do. You don't have a health bar, instead your screen becomes increasingly red and bloody as you take damage. Your first thought when you see the screen change like that is OH GOD FUCK FUCK FUCK RUN AWAY RUN AWAY, which is what it sounds like you want.

There are a few things these games do that your game doesn't, though. FPS combat is fast, frantic, and extremely chaotic. Bullets can come from any angle, even unseen angles. This works with the sense of panic that the low-but-uncertain health creates. ZC combat, on the other hand, is slow, methodical, and you have perfect information about the battlefield at almost all times. These things simply do not mix unless you heavily modify the way ZC's combat system works.



Let's look at just one example of how ZC conflicts with this kind of gaming environment. Let's go with the classic situation of running around a corner. Sometimes, you run around a corner and there'll be nothing. Other times, there'll be a guy with a shotgun who blows your head off before you know what's going on unless you're ready for it. This kind of game makes you afraid when you turn a corner because you don't know what's on the other side.

How does ZC ruin this? You see the entirety of the screen from the top-down as soon as you enter. Only things on the screen can affect you. Enemies spawn far away from you (either in the center or on the other sides) so you have plenty of time to assess the situation when you come into it.

At absolute minimum to fix this situation, you need to implement both a fog of war system and a change to the enemy AI so they can wait in ambush for you. Hard enough (if not almost impossible) in 2.5 but you can forget about doing that in 1.9.

[trudatman]

ah. thanks for the explanation. now I understand your point.

as for the bag that holds your rocks... it is the first item you get and you cannot avoid it. I still don't see how you killed enemies without having picked it up. did I mess something up between demos? the stones purse is on the second screen, before you have any other items and you cannot advance without getting it, as it is in your way... are you misremembering what happened when you played or did I break something? would you be willing to revisit the game to attempt to replicate the scenario you laid out?

[Giggidy]

ah. thanks for the explanation. now I understand your point.

as for the bag that holds your rocks... it is the first item you get and you cannot avoid it. I still don't see how you killed enemies without having picked it up. did I mess something up between demos? the stones purse is on the second screen, before you have any other items and you cannot advance without getting it, as it is in your way... are you misremembering what happened when you played or did I break something? would you be willing to revisit the game to attempt to replicate the scenario you laid out?

You're right: You get the bag first, then you get the rocks. That was me misremembering, mostly because I was having such a hard time figuring out what things were supposed to be.

[trudatman]

I forgot to confirm that, yes, the cracktorock is in fact a mutated dung beetle next to a spilled container of radioactive waste. I no longer even worry that the toxic waste scene will be misinterpreted, because everybody I have had feedback from on that part identified it right off. that scene is the first hint that this is going to be a political quest of sorts. I didn't know I was going in that direction until that screen was assembled and I didn't want to remove it. I have since then added the enemies that appear after that point, including an end boss that I will not mention by name nor title. I originally wanted the whole thing to be simple, whimsical and fun, but now I am pretty sure I want it to be simple, thought-provoking and fun.

if Hergiswi or anybody else has played through it, I would love to read more comments, critiques, criticisms and/or complaints. I also encourage to Giggidy to give it another go and not give up despite hating it, as the in-depth feedback from a hater (for lack of a better term in my mind right now) is especially helpful. it is a very short demo, so even if you can't stand it, your playing it through and giving me feedback is incredibly helpful.

again, for those yet to try it, play this quest with any version of Zelda Classic except 2.1s and drop me some text here to use as guiding points in further development. please let me know what version you played it in and what specific glitches/errors/bugs you encountered. thanks, again, kids!

Edited by trudatman, 30 June 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[trudatman]

I am showing the enemies featured in the August, 2012, demo here to make discussing them and referencing them easier for player, critic and questmaker, alike. the right way to do this is probably with animated gif images. oh, well. please feel free to ignore the hidden contents of this post in hopes of leaving things unknown.

IF YOU WISH TO REVEAL THE ENEMIES IN THIS QUEST, CLICK HERE ->

some of the enemies will almost certainly be changing (the lynel's projectile is the thing most likely to change, as I mistakenly thought it was shared by ropes, but it is shared by stalfoses, if I am remembering correctly, so it no longer needs to look like poisonous spit) and others will almost certainly not be changing (the tektite is awesome, although I would consider altering the positions they move to, as side to side while not jumping may be better than how they currently bounce up and down). I have decided that the fleas will only be near the dogs and that the dogs will only be near the cops. help me with other stuff by posting comments, questions, critiques, suggestions and/or ideas for unused/undesigned/unlisted enemies. shown below are the "enemies" that currently inhabit the quest, excluding the bosses (both patras, which are swarms of bees flying around queen bees, and Gannon, who will still remain a surprise). any and all comments, questions, suggestions and/or whatever are appreciated.

bugs:
tektite - flea
moldorm - twenty bees in a swarm
gel - spider
octorok - dung beetle (spits dung)
cracktorok - mutant dung beetle (spits radioactive waste)

animals:
moblin - dog (throws bones)
rope - snake
dodongo - tortoise

cops:
aquamentus - cop sleeping at the wheel of an armored car (shoots fireballs)
ghini - clowncar ghost pig
darknut - riot cop
goriya - riot cop (throws boomerang)
lynel - riot cop (shoots poison)
armos statue - pig sleeping under a tree
armos active - awakened pig

aircraft:
peahat - helicopter drone
large digdogger - large spacecraft
small digdogger - small spacecraft

undead:
stalfos - headless zombie skeleton
gibdo - zombie skeleton

I intend to add a similar hidden list for referencing the items.

Edited by trudatman, 16 September 2012 - 12:40 AM.

[Hergiswi]

I've already posted most of what I needed to say, but you asked me to post what I said on IRC. I didn't forget!

At first, I got the impression that the difficulty was oddly out-of-order in this quest, since the second screen has the equivalent of 5 or 6 Moldorms, followed by gels, and then shortly afterward a Cracktorock. However, I realized that the bees can be defeated quite easily if you're just paying attention, and I'm now aware that the Cracktorock falls easily to a few rocks. As I mentioned before, I love the Z1-esque minimalist style of no guidance. I guess the only issue I have is that things like the Cracktorock and the Dodongo turtle don't present themselves as necessary obstacles; I avoided it right up until you told me how to defeat it, and the turtle seemed inconvenient to fight since I only have a limited number of bombs and he didn't give me anything after dying.

Most of the sprites are self-explanatory, but a few caught me off-guard. I couldn't tell what the pot was at first, and I don't particularly understand why the flower makes invisible enemies visible. I also couldn't tell what the sprites were supposed to be at first for the Armos and the Ghini that came from the car wreckage, but I could immediately figure out how to fight them due to their normal enemy behavior.

Off the top of my head, that's all I can think of; if I think of anything else, I'll surely post it. I was disappointed that the demo ended where it did, because I was just starting to really get into the exploration feel of the quest.

[trudatman]

thanks, buddy!

I am strongly considering replacing the flower with something more logical. I was using it as a placeholder image, but then I added its presence as either an unreachable scenery tile or an obtainable inventory item on all of the screens that have the invisible undead enemies, so I'm not sure I will change it. I'm at about 50/50 on that one.

it is hard to see the nose of the pigs (armos and ghini) due to their speed, I think. I don't think those sprites are perfect, but I don't know how motivated to alter them I am, either. meh. at least the sleeping one can be stared at before he is activated.

as for the difficulty SNAFUs, I have a bunch to type about this.... the second screen totally has ten moldorms. that sounds tough to deal with, and it is, sort of, when you first have to navigate that screen, because you start with no weapons. the thing about that is that you can just keep running and, assuming you don't dawdle, you will almost always make it through that screen having taken little to no damage. for any subsequent visits to these bees, assuming you got the stick, just swing your stick when they swarm you. moldorms are a strange enemy; they have almost no chance of hurting you if you are in the process of swinging your sword-type items. so, think of it like this: the bees can't land on you to sting you if you are swinging your stick through the air. moldorms are easy; it's the other types of bees that are hard. the patras are way too hard for the current item set in the demo. with no heart container upgrades and only two hits of the medicine, you are unlikely to beat the level one boss screen. oh, well. you will come back to it later, as you don't even need to pass through it to advance in your exploration. right now, the only benefit to beating that room is that it will likely (this is as of yet untested) allow you cellphone-assisted access to the Gannon battle. thing about Gannon is you can't beat him without the arrow-item upgrade and there isn't an arrow-item upgrade in the quest, yet.

the cracktorock isn't very hard to beat, but if you are not familiar with how he attacks, he can be a tough bastard. it is definitely possible (as you know, Hergiswi) to get by him without vanquishing him. as for the dodongo, the fact that killing him doesn't help you (and trying can hurt you) is intentional. why are you trying to kill a big old tortoise anyway? just because he is there?

the medicinal sprites need some work, I think. that is feedback I have been getting consistently. so, altering those sprites, swapping the lynel's projectile with something more logical and replacing the cross-type item with something more logical are the things that I am currently mulling over. did you get the wand-type item? I really dig that one. I feel particularly proud of how that came out, given the limitations of the program with which this quest is being created, the infamous Zelda Classic 1.90.

as for where and how the demo ends, I had reached the end of a spurt of development, so I shared it as it is, knowing it will likely be a while before any major expansion occurs. if you opened the quest with the editor, you would see that there just plain isn't anything else made, yet. when there is more, I will most likely post another demo.

thanks for playing and commenting! if you think of anything more you want to mention, please do add it here.

Edited by trudatman, 15 January 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[Hergiswi]

Hey tru, I just thought of one more thing. I don't know if I imagined this or not, but it seems like the area slightly in front of where the turtle sprite ends is harmful to Link. I realize this is probably just because the sprite doesn't take up the entire 16-pixel block, but I thought it would be worth mentioning.

Of course, I might have made that up. I'll double check in a few.

[trudatman]

while I am not sure about that, specifically, that type of issue will be a common problem with the minimalism reducing sprite widths and/or heights. this also may be a 2.50(3) bug. at the demo's end screen, the tortoise bumps up against the words on the right side of the box in 1.90. in 2.50(3), it never comes within a tile of that text. this leads me to believe that the 2.50(3) dodongo contact area may be three tiles wide with an extra tile of contact are in front of him when facing the right side of the screen. does that make sense? maybe he has an extra tile of contact area behind him when he faces left. I have a lot of troubles with 2.50(3). I think it is a very bad program, relative to the one I am used to. 1.90 actually does a very good job of simulating the original Zelda game. the stabbing downward bug in 2.50(3) drives me absolutely nuts.

Edited by trudatman, 17 August 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Saffith]

Does it work correctly in 2.10? I can't get 1.90 working well enough to compare.

[trudatman]

I don't know. I run 1.90 and 2.50(3). you could test it in anything else. you wouldn't even need my quest to test it, you could just put a dodongo on the first screen of a new quest and see if he gets up against blocks on the right side or stays one row away and then see if you can walk behind him when he faces left. or, if you want to test it in my quest without playing it thoroughly, you don't need the edit code, right? you can have it, if you do.

edit: realized you may be referring to the stabbing downward thing. I still don't know. 2.50(3) is my first "upgrade" from 1.90 (mostly because I kept hearing how close to stable it supposedly was, unlike other versions since I started using ZC/ZQ). it doesn't feel like an upgrade at all. that doesn't mean that i don't appreciate your devotion and extraordinary efforts. your hard work is crucial to the success of this community and its future. thanks.

Edited by trudatman, 17 August 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Saffith]

Oh, I see what you're talking about. Dodongos aren't supposed to be able to turn against blocks like that, though; when they turn from horizontal to vertical, their new position is always where their left half was. That one's actually a bug in 1.90, not 2.50.

You're right about the sword hitbox being off, though. I'll see what I can do about that.

[trudatman]

I don't think you understand the dodongo thing. read it again without supposition. I'd try to explain it better, but I think I explained it well. it can't seem to get within a tile of objects on its right. it stays one whole tile away when facing right. that isn't normal Zelda emulation.