899 replies to this topic

[Air Luigi]

7. Consider putting some of the manual stuff into the intro because NO ONE READS THE MANUAL.
 

Please, don't make that. There's nothing more stupid than tutorials in gaming. That could ruin the oldschool feeling. People that don't read the manual can only blame himself.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Is there a secret, southern cross area by any chance?

[MaximumCDawg]

NSS: I was actually talking about the FINAL final boss, the one after you best you-know-who, and who I'm not sure you've seen yet.  I neglected to give him an invulnerability period, so he just gets wrreeeeeecked by the Laser.

 

As for Capricorn, I should look at him closely, too.  Leo is supposed to wreck him, but a single-hit kill isn't really in the cards.  Maybe I should just change where he is allowed to spawn so can't catch him in the corner like that?

 

 

Please, don't make that. There's nothing more stupid than tutorials in gaming. That could ruin the oldschool feeling. People that don't read the manual can only blame himself.

 

 

I agree.  I don't like tutorials in gaming because the game should teach you how to play, and I tried to do that.  Player experiments, learns, moves on.  But, here's the thing: how do you tell someone "Hey, idiot, you need to remap your buttons or else you're jumping using the damn bumpers and that's weird.  Also, you have a laser, use it."  in-game?  I'm not talking tutorial level, I'm talking like a note that might pop up just before the initial cinematic that says "You may wish to refer to the manual for button mapping and music settings" or something, similar to how Link holds up that little "See Manual for Details!" at the end of the scrolling list of items in LOZ.  

 

As for the laser, I got a better idea.  I'll change the passive subscreen in flying levels so there's a little button that says "L" and has a picture of the laser blast down in the middle part.  That way, people at least can look up and see what's going on.

 

 

Is there a secret, southern cross area by any chance? 

 

 

 

There are secrets; there's a ton of optional stuff already in the final beta, and there are alternate endings and bonus features in the final version.  I don't know about a trip to StarTropics though.  Totally kicking myself for not seeing the opportunity to drop a reference to another amazing NES game in a game with a theme based on constellations.  Whoops!

Edited by C-Dawg, 16 September 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[newstarshipsmell]

NSS: I was actually talking about the FINAL final boss, the one after you best you-know-who, and who I'm not sure you've seen yet. I neglected to give him an invulnerability period, so he just gets wrreeeeeecked by the Laser.

Ah, okay. No, I never beat the you-know-who. The last few times I actually reached the end of the game before starting over on a new demo, I tried cheating and kept dying from the scripted attacks that still damage you despite invincibility. This last playthrough I've resolved to avoid cheating at all, much less past any bosses (which slows me down since I cheated past several of them before, like revamped Stun Beam boss and later Iron fights. Fighting them honestly is HARD! Until I learned the patterns - or got lucky.)

You know, one thing I hate about my play habits - I love metroidvanias, but mostly for gaining new equipment/abilities and exploring new areas. (And fighting cool bosses of course!) Once I near the end of the game and there's really no substantial new areas to explore, my interest starts to wane; once I've backtracked and explored everything I can and face the final boss, it becomes hard to motivate myself to beat the game, if the boss isn't a cakewalk (typically not the case, of course.)

Seeing the ending(s) just isn't that big of a draw for me, knowing there'll be no more exploring afterwards anyways, and knowing that I don't get much satisfaction out of simply completing a game.

But I must beat this! I want to see all the endings to Zodiac, too. Without being cheap and noclipping my way into the ending sequences, heh heh.
 

As for the laser, I got a better idea. I'll change the passive subscreen in flying levels so there's a little button that says "L" and has a picture of the laser blast down in the middle part. That way, people at least can look up and see what's going on.

Suggestions:

L/R subscreen buttons: Shift the Energy (money) right where Keys used to go, and put smaller frames labeled L/R underneath the A/B frames, with smaller icons for jumping and dashing inside them. Dashing would be empty or the frame/label entirely hidden until you gain Dash Jets 1. L icon could be a boot/boots, possibly animated hopping or alternating with an up arrow. R icon could be animated running boots, or just alternating with sideways arrows.

During corridors, the L icon would be a Ship Blast icon, and the R would be empty, or the entire frame/label removed.

This would mostly eliminate players who can't RTFM from being confused about how to jump when they start in Aquarius, and avoid players like MW not figuring out they can now dash after gaining the Dash Jets... Perhaps the relevant L/R icon could flash for a couple seconds when you gained an upgrade that affects L or R movement?

Shield Module/Black Hole & Supernova Armor: Also, as far as the ring upgrades, suggest you limit the duration of the graphical effect to the length of the sound effect it plays (the former lasts far longer than the latter and clashes.) Also, if it lasts shorter, suggest freezing character in place momentarily while it plays out.

Bugs:

Ice Beam:


I was trying to see if I could ascend here with just the Ice Beam, and these two iceblocks I formed on the enemies below never expired. I think I may have formed multiple blocks on top of each other so maybe layering them causes the later block to replace the earlier and swap back when expired, but then earlier one doesn't expire? Dunno. I froze some of these guys higher up and their blocks expired normally. I didn't think to try killing all the enemies to see if this would cause the blocks to disappear.

Wallet 1 & 2: The Wallets appear to be displaying in the wrong CSet on the submenu:



On the left are the sprites as they appear in ZQ, on the right is how they're displayed on the subscreen in ZC.

Magnet block bug:

M23 S12: F6 trap, I think?* There's still a magnet block on the bottom edge at pos 167, so you can fall into S22 and get stuck.
*Basing this off the last maps you sent me. You may have fixed it since then? The others are all fixed on the Taurus map though...

Switch tile bugs:

M19 S1A: Switch changes CSet/colors when triggered.

M27 S09: Switch changes CSet/colors when triggered.

M27 S19: Switch changes CSet/colors when triggered.

M29 S7D: Bottom half of switch changes CSet/colors when triggered. Also, it should trigger to an opening door graphic, not an exploding platform graphic.

M33 S03: It should trigger to an opening door graphic, not an exploding platform graphic.
(This is based on the last unlocked beta, so you may have fixed some since then? Also, this is all of the switches - I confirmed the rest trigger to the same color and proper graphic.)

Aquarius Bubble: Doesn't always rise upwards where it ought to.

And as seen in today's LP, lol (https://youtu.be/-dkeRRaaX3o?t=4m25s) you can use the bubble to swim up out of the water on the left side of the screen in Pisces 38. MeleeWizard didn't figure it out, but you can dash left from the upper-left corner and reach the platform in S37 with the Energy Max Up upgrade early, without the Grapple Beam. It only happens on that screen, and only to the left of the long blue pipe right of the entrance, and not on S36, S37 or S39, so you can't reach the doors in S36 or S39.

He also found another spot, in Pisces 60, where the collision detection or whatever seems buggy (https://youtu.be/-dkeRRaaX3o?t=15m10s) which I'd noticed before but didn't bother posting - since it breaks on the ceiling, you couldn't use it to rise up and over the ledge to the right anyways, to explore that area pre-DJBs.

I know the Bubble acts buggy in some other screens and doesn't let you rise as high as it ought to (like the terminal room in Aquarius 71, which I think I reported earlier) but I don't know if this is something you'll fix and worth looking for more instances of? I could make a comprehensive run of all the partially-underwater screens checking if you care about it.

And dammit, something just crapped out my gamesave and/or config. Even though the .qst file is right where it should be, named as it should be, ZC "can't find it." So it looks like I get to start over AGAIN.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 20 September 2015 - 12:37 AM.

[Deedee]

Found what I think to be a bug. The hitbox for the bubble attack used by both crab bosses is a combo higher than it should be. Also, the second phase of both of the bossses won't hit you unless you jump.

[newstarshipsmell]

Found what I think to be a bug. The hitbox for the bubble attack used by both crab bosses is a combo higher than it should be. Also, the second phase of both of the bossses won't hit you unless you jump.

FYI, if you enabled Cheats (password is 4) there's an option to display hitboxes in ZC: Cheat > Show/Hide Layer > Hitboxes, so you can easily confirm whether or not an enemy's hitbox is positioned properly. Alas, they use one of the colors from the enemy sprite's CSet (rather than something bright and/or flashing to contrast) so many of them are kind of hard to see...

It looks like Crabbor's hitbox is fine to me:


However, this other enemy has a hitbox shifted left when it's walking rightwards:

Walking left:


Walking right:


ETA: Ugh, I didn't read your post carefully - you mean the BUBBLES, duh. Yeah, those don't show hitboxes with that option on, so I'm guessing they are like the squid missiles, spikes/spikeballs and whatnot that all apply damage to you a row above them. This is due to some sideview gravity bug in 2.50.1 (not present in 2.50) and not something wrong with the quest. (You can easily confirm this yourself - either play it in 2.50, or go into ZQ and remove sideview gravity from a room with things like these in them and go play it in 2.50.1 - they will no longer deal damage above them to you if you walk along the row above them.)

 

Shop triggers: If the platform has a space behind it, I can do this neat trick:

 

I jump over the trigger while holding B (with my Sidearm assigned) and A (Pulse Hammer) and the message triggers as I'm falling halfway past the trigger platform. After it ends, and I land, my momentum will carry my a little farther left and when I'm completely past the platform, the YES NO prompt will flicker rapidly and my Sidearm temporary upgrades to a Rapidshot and drains my energy bar. If I move right, I'll lock back into place and the YES NO prompt stops flickering.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 20 September 2015 - 02:52 AM.

[Deedee]

Yeah, I was talking about the bubbles. Either C-Dawg can wait for the bug to be fixed, or just script sideview areas entirely.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

ETA: Ugh, I didn't read your post carefully - you mean the BUBBLES, duh. Yeah, those don't show hitboxes with that option on, so I'm guessing they are like the squid missiles, spikes/spikeballs and whatnot that all apply damage to you a row above them. This is due to some sideview gravity bug in 2.50.1 (not present in 2.50) and not something wrong with the quest. (You can easily confirm this yourself - either play it in 2.50, or go into ZQ and remove sideview gravity from a room with things like these in them and go play it in 2.50.1 - they will no longer deal damage above them to you if you walk along the row above them.)

IIRC, Cdawg was given a special ZC version for this quest, did you try it with THAT version to see if it fixed the bug?

[newstarshipsmell]

IIRC, Cdawg was given a special ZC version for this quest, did you try it with THAT version to see if it fixed the bug?

Yes, that is the only version I've been playing it with since he/they released it a couple months ago - before that, I was playing it in 2.50. AFAIK, the only difference between it and the official 2.50.1 version is that Gleeok added an option for quick scrolling on room transitions, as the default scrolling speed was horrendous for a side-scrolling platformer, and enabling the "No Screen Scrolling" rule in ZQ introduced its own massive irritants.

 

If you click Misc > About... in ZC, 2.50.1 reports it is v2.50 Build 28 from 10/4/14 (whereas 2.50  reports v2.50 Build 24 from 12/21/12.) The custom build with quick-scrolling reports the same info as 2.50.1, so presumably it is the same version as 2.50.1, just with quick-scrolling options tacked on. I haven't heard of any other new features added to it besides that, but I'm hardly the expert on the matter here.

 

I have already tested it in both 2.50, 2.50.1, and the custom build - the bug is present in both the custom build and 2.50.1, but not in 2.50. And it's related to how Sideview Gravity works - if you turn it off in ZQ and play it in 2.50.1 or the custom build, stuff on the row below you will not damage you when you walk directly above it along the above row. Alas, I'm too spoiled by how awesome quick-scrolling is, so I can't stomach going back to playing it with slow scrolling or no scrolling, which are the only options in 2.50.

[Anarchy_Balsac]

Hmm, that's unfortunate, was worth asking though.

[Deedee]

It's really annoying when you have this 1 block passage in Scorpio, and there is a damage tile below. You are expected to jump over it to get out of the passage, but there really is no way to avoid the damage.

[ShadowTiger]

It's really annoying when you have this 1 block passage in Scorpio, and there is a damage tile below. You are expected to jump over it to get out of the passage, but there really is no way to avoid the damage.

 Which room is that in?

[newstarshipsmell]

 Which room is that in?

I'd guess the narrow passage on the way to the ZW boss? Right before you reach the moving platforms and spiders?

 

Anyways, I dunno that it's that big of a deal. There's no shortage of intentional unfair damage dealt later on in the game, especially in the later corridors. So a bug that introduces some unintended unfairness is like icing on the cake of agony and despair.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 20 September 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[MaximumCDawg]

Delicious!

In all seriousness, I get the issue. I have added it to my list to tweak before final release.

[newstarshipsmell]

Delicious!

In all seriousness, I get the issue. I have added it to my list to tweak before final release.

Hmmm... do you mean the specific complaint from Dimentio, or the general issue with some things' damage hitboxes not working correctly in sideview gravity? The latter would be nice to get fixed, obviously, but I really don't think the former is too big of a deal.

 

I assume he meant either Scorpio 6B or 6F - 6B you would be able to dash across without damage in 2.50, but you cannot even jump over it in 2.50.1 as the bug applies damage to you on the ground on one side or the other. 6F simply damages you regardless of whether or not the bug is there.

 

Unavoidable damage is somewhat annoying, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. I actually enjoy it when paths to stuff (like navigating the coral in Pisces) forces you to optimize reducing your damage, rather than eliminating it entirely. (And the low-rate, but continuous damage stuff like lava and coral is way more fun, since you can zip through stuff with minimal damage, but if you screw up and/or get in over your head and/or don't react quickly and correctly, you can easily die - so it's an effective dangerous threat, but not impossible to deal with.) It adds more challenge, if done in proper proportions, since you then must strive harder to guard against avoidable damage along a route to accommodate the unavoidable you must tank.

 

It's more pleasing, to me, when a game has a good mix of dangerous paths that can be skillfully navigated without taking damage at all, and other paths where some of it can't be helped (but can be skillfully reduced.) Zodiac seems to do this well, and scales it up reasonably as the levels progress. Having a few isolated spots in Scorpio that warn you "hey sometimes the layout is just unfair" preps you for harder challenges further in. And you do get a cave door/continue point/recharge station as soon as you master the moving platform ascent there. So it's not horribly unfair. This was why I complained about that path previously, since it was pretty much guaranteed to drain your life bar, between the sandblock scorpions, lava, spiders, and cactii along the way, setting you up for a crippled fight against the boss or wasting time grinding for hearts with a limited set of enemies near the end of it. With the room added, I think it's fine now.

 

Again, the bug is more annoying, since it interferes with otherwise well-designed layout challenges, what with missile squids and spikeballs and whatnot, that end up introducing unintended and unfair knockback damage that can quickly end things for you, where otherwise you could enjoy skillfully passing those screens without damage (most of the time - some of the squid missiles seem unavoidable along certain routes, which again, is a good mix of damage dealt and frequency, I think.)

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 22 September 2015 - 03:38 PM.