399 replies to this topic

[Mr. Z]

For those who don't think the game looks much different:
 

Spoiler

 
 

 
Today on "Spot the weakness"

[strike]

Majora's Mask doesn't feel like a Zelda game to me. :/

Air Luigi, you might think that's plenty of time but to someone playing the game for the first time it's probably not. I had 2 seconds left when I finished the second dungeon for the first time. The main mechanic just drives the entire game away from the Zelda formula and that's a fact. More than that, the spirit of Zelda. Some people still think it's a great game and that's absolutely fine but it just doesn't feel like a Zelda game.

-Strike

[Shane]

Majora's Mask doesn't feel like a Zelda game to me. :/

Air Luigi, you might think that's plenty of time but to someone playing the game for the first time it's probably not. I had 2 seconds left when I finished the second dungeon for the first time. The main mechanic just drives the entire game away from the Zelda formula and that's a fact. More than that, the spirit of Zelda. Some people still think it's a great game and that's absolutely fine but it just doesn't feel like a Zelda game.

-Strike

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. It's a nice departure from the traditional stuff, and certainly resulted in a unique title that didn't resort in doing anything dramatically different (AoL and FS, for example). But the classic Zelda charm is missing for me. I always felt that exploration was a key factor in Zelda. However, here we have limited time, so our main focus is to save the world as soon as possible. This brings in the bittersweet goodness for me when I think about this game... you can't save everyone from their personal troubles. Sure, you save their lives from mass destruction, but did Link resolve every issue in Termina under three days? No, and that's what makes this even more realistic than most Zelda games. Link can't save everyone, but he can inspire them to resolve their issues on their own, by giving them a chance (= stopping the moon). I hope this all makes sense.

Edited by Shane, 07 November 2014 - 07:24 AM.

[Maleboocado]

Majora's Mask doesn't feel like a Zelda game to me. :/
Air Luigi, you might think that's plenty of time but to someone playing the game for the first time it's probably not. I had 2 seconds left when I finished the second dungeon for the first time. The main mechanic just drives the entire game away from the Zelda formula and that's a fact. More than that, the spirit of Zelda. Some people still think it's a great game and that's absolutely fine but it just doesn't feel like a Zelda game.
-Strike

Fact? Really?

Now there's a real fact.

There's no such thing as a "Zelda formula" or a "spirit of Zelda".

There are some common elements, but they way they're showed and executed are so different, Zelda is something but a monolithic entity.

Just look at Zelda 1 and Twilight Princess. The first one is heavily focused on survival and massive exploration, followed by resource management, and puzzles comes in fourth places. In TP, the puzzles are everywhere, whereas the real survival is minimal. Majora's Mask is around the middle, although too focused in puzzles and with " visible cracks in bombable walls"-type crap for my tastes.

Heck, aren't Zelda Classic's quest separated in categories? Classic, Modern... This is why some people love Majora's Mask and some people hate it. So I don't think your "fact" has strong arguments for.

[strike]

Zelda will always be about exploration and freedom no matter what the heck they start making. That's what the original is about and that's what Zelda is really about. And there is no doubt a Zelda formula, yes there is of course variations of it throughout the series, but it's there. Three dungeons plot twist. Dungeon item boss key boss.

-Strike

[Legen Dary]

If you don't have enough time to complete a dungeon the first time you play, then the game has accomplished something.

 

Yeah, because having three days for nothing would be pointless, and also because the time limit is a crucial part of the game not only because its RPG mechanics, but because it helps building the overall tension of the game too (you know: death everywhere, the moon is gonna crash, people are afraid and blah blah).

 

Lovely game.

[HylianGlaceon]

Majora's Mask doesn't feel like a Zelda game to me. :/

Air Luigi, you might think that's plenty of time but to someone playing the game for the first time it's probably not. I had 2 seconds left when I finished the second dungeon for the first time. The main mechanic just drives the entire game away from the Zelda formula and that's a fact. More than that, the spirit of Zelda. Some people still think it's a great game and that's absolutely fine but it just doesn't feel like a Zelda game.

-Strike

 

 

I've been there. Majora's Mask is technically the 5th Zelda I ever started up and 6th to complete. Basically I had to do Woodfall 3 times and Snowhead 5 times to actually finish them for the first time because I wasn't fast enough. Part of it's my fault, part of it is MM's I'd say. When I got the Collector's Edition for GCN, I started 3 games around the same time. Those being Z1, OoT and MM.

 

With MM I quit after getting to the first save point, then went to play Z1, OoT and AoL. A few weeks later, I tried to get through this, so I didn't remember or missed the hint about the slowdown song. I never went back to the scarecrow guys either, heck I just wanted to explore some dungeons and leave Clock Town alone because it didn't interest me. I do feel it should have been a song that appeared on the subscreen still. I eventually learned about it later online when looking up how to upgrade your sword sometime around the 3rd dungeon.

 

The fact you're timed doing dungeons just feels wrong to me too. This is with Stray Fairies you can collect and have to recollect if you don't get them all done in time. (Again been there with all but one and had to reset and start over)

 

I did give MM another chance after that with a second playthrough, and it's just not something I like that much. Easily needs more dungeons for starters.

[Maleboocado]

Zelda will always be about exploration and freedom no matter what the heck they start making. That's what the original is about and that's what Zelda is really about. And there is no doubt a Zelda formula, yes there is of course variations of it throughout the series, but it's there. Three dungeons plot twist. Dungeon item boss key boss.
-Strike

No.

What you're saying is that Zelda should come back to its roots. And while I would love to see a new Zelda following the steps of the series' grandmother, that's another completely different topic.

And no, the "Zelda formula" does not need to encomprise dungeon boss keys or three initial dungeons. That's a mental association YOU have made, and I don't have. Let's go even far. I say a Zelda game could scrap the heart containers after defeated bosses and still be considered a Zelda by many people.

Edited by Maleboocado, 07 November 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[strike]

If I had ran out of time, I would have quit the game. I was not invested enough to continue playing and repeated everything again.

I've never beat the game. I've started playing it three times and just stopped because I didn't feel any motivation to continue. I always feel like the game is bullying me to go in a linear path.

-Strike

P.S: I'm using formula to mean conventions that Zelda frequently uses. A "mental association" is the realization of a real pattern that is undeniably there If they scrapped heart containers, it would still be Zelda. That's a very small part of the formula. I don't get what you're saying :/

Edited by strike, 07 November 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Moonbread]

The first time around, it doesn't feel like a lot of time, and...that's kind of the point.  3 days in-game isn't a lot of time and that's what makes the setting build up that urgency; but as you play the game more, you realize just how much you're able to accomplish within that time.  The more you travel back in time, the more you've learned about the world for the next time, and the more familiar you feel with everything.  The first time I played it, I couldn't get that much done and it felt overwhelming, but these days I find myself able to grab a couple heart containers and quite a few masks and still get to and beat Woodfall Temple, get the stray fairies and the Great Spin Attack all in the same three days, right after you get the Deku curse taken off.  As a kid, though, there was no way I could've done that. But you know, I got better at managing my time and learned what things happened and when and where.  And that's honestly one of the best parts of the game- making the most efficient use of your time.  Don't wanna go back in time more than you have to?  Start paying attention to what goes on in the world and plan accordingly.  Sure, you'll have some slip ups and you'll still have to go back a number of times, but hey, that's life.  The time limit is a perpetual obstacle, and it's meant to push you around.

 

Anyway, I don't really like the idea that Zelda games should always be the same.  Yes, I'm a huge fan of the original, but I'm also a huge fan of what pretty much every entry in the series has done- boats, trains, time travel, shrinking, cloning, etc.  To be honest, the series wouldn't be nearly as interesting if they played it safe and never broke from the mold- imagine if the only flavor of Mario games we ever got anymore were of the "New Super Mario Bros" variety.  I love the NSMB games but it gets monotonous playing them.  And the truth is, my favorite Zelda games tend to be the ones that do something wildly different.  Just because I love the old ways of Zelda doesn't mean I can't appreciate when the series does something new and different, because to me, that means they really care about the series and don't just lazily rehash things all the time.  It doesn't always end up being the most popular decision, but it keeps things fresh.

 

Oh, and the reason Majora's Mask even exists?  Aonuma wanted to make a different Zelda instead of what Miyamoto wanted- which was making DLC dungeons for Ocarina of Time.  Thank fucking god.

[strike]

Scootaloo- Well, I really wish that they would depart from the Zelda formula completely!

I don't really feel that the formula supports the spirit of the franchise very well. Any attempt at getting away from right now's formula is fine with me even if I don't like how it turns out. That's why I try to support Majora's Mask even though I don't like it at all: it's original!

That's one of the reasons that I think going back to Zelda's roots is so, so important. Make a new formula that actually promotes exploration, story telling and freedom rather than shallow plots, shallow puzzles and false exploration. I don' think that Majora's Mask succeeded at this but then again, it didn't really try. That's why I say it's a good game, just not a Zelda game.

-Strike

[Maleboocado]

Scootaloo, I disagree.

Yes, I'm all for a dynamic series, because I think Zelda can be many things, but I think Zelda is currently in a dead end. Because strike has mentioned the word: conventions.

Zelda is full of so many conventions it has become its own universe, isolated from the rest of the market. Rather than critizising Zeldas for what they do compared with other games of the market, or for what they do by themselves, we critisize them for what they do compared with the rest of the franchise. And using weak arguments and terms.

How did strike critisized Majora's Mask and expressed his lack of interest in the game? By saying it departed from the "Zelda formula". He did not say Majora's Mask was about X but failed miserablely to do it, or that there are better games that did X better than Majora's, or that X is a bad idea to start with. No, he said that Majora's Mask was "not X but another thing", and X is "Zelda", so because Majora's Mask was "another thing" it wasn't "Zelda". So Majora's Mask is another thing, a "not-Zelda". So this "not-Zelda" should become "Zelda". Majora's Mask would be a better "Zelda" if it were an actual "Zelda". But you said that "Zelda" is always changing. So there's no such thing as "not-Zelda", because "not-Zelda" is "Zelda", just in another direction. So Majora's Mask is a "Zelda". Then it's a good game because it's "Zelda"? Or a bad game? But wait, strike said Zelda should come back to its roots. So then Majora's Mask is a bad " Zelda"? A good "not-Zelda"? And then he praises the game for being original. So what do he want? An "original" game or a "Zelda" game? So then "Zelda" is about being "original"? Then Majora's Mask is a " Zelda". But he said Majora's Mask was "not-Zelda". So " Zelda" is being "not-original"? This is confusing.

What if " Zelda" can be read and interpreted in many, many ways?

"But you said the Zelda formula does not exist"
It does not exist in the sense that the franchise is completely divorced from its roots. "Modern Zeldas", on the other side, does definitively have their formula. Or conventions. As I see the games. You could say this is not true. Fine. But then it's your point, not mine.

So here me ask: what do we understand as Zelda? And what do we want the series to become?
And rather than saying "Zelda is about exploration", we need far more solid frameworks. To go deeper.

Edited by Maleboocado, 07 November 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[strike]

Maleboocado: That middle paragraph is incredibly confusing, intentionally, but still. My opinion isn't that complicated dude.

Majora's Mask does depart from the Zelda formula but that's not why I dislike the game personally. It departs from the ideals the Zelda series is based upon.

Majora's Mask succeeded at achieving its goals and I think it's a great game because of this.

Nope Zelda isn't always changing . The formula is but not the concept.

Yes, there is such a thing as not a Zelda game...

No, just because a game embraces Zelda's spirit does not mean it's good.

Yep, Majora's Mask is a good game just not an especially good Zelda game. I feel like I've said this before.

Yes, I like original games. I want further departure from the Zelda formula. What's so hard about this?

I want an original Zelda game

Yep, you are confused.

I'm saying that I want a Zelda formula that actually supports the spirit of Zelda. I've already said this.

-Strike

P.S: So many

Edited by strike, 07 November 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[Haylee]

Guys, let's just narrow this down to "You like this game, or you don't."

 

Either way, I thought MM had plenty of exploration. The thing is, there's so many secrets in the game that it's impossible to find them all in one cycle. I feel people are over exaggerating about the timed events here. Yes, there's specific events that only happen at specific times, but that's very easily the charm of it. If you're not charmed by that, I honestly feel that's your own problem. Like I said, "You like the game, or you don't."

 

Just because it's not traditional Zelda exploration doesn't mean the game doesn't have plenty of exploration.

[Limebeer]

I just came across this trailer today, I am so excited!!! damn I've been waiting for this since OOT came out on 3DS! gah, I am Zelda-nerding out so freaking hard right now and I need this game!!!