691 replies to this topic

[Koh]

I agree it makes sense in very closed situations, like an enemy covered in sharp spikes, or something ablaze.  But just taking damage for walking near an enemy is stupid now, since there's plenty of memory to define how and where they attack.

[Orithan]

Well, I doubt there is any way to fix this now considering that the engine has no distinction between contact and attacking since the beginning. Lets hope that it is fixed in Terraria 2 (though someone can possibly mod this in given that a contact damage of 0 makes the player pass through enemies without an issue)

[KingPridenia]

I think touch damage has some legitimacy in certain respects, but not any sort of touch in general.  For example, some of Starbound's enemies have a charge attack, so I see that as valid touch damage.  Similarly, Eye of Cthulhu and Twins charge attacks I would consider valid.  A lot of Terraria's fighter AI enemies who just follow the player, jump, and hope to touch them, such as zombies, could have had a better AI.  And yes, a lot of enemies use that AI.  Each having their own sort of melee weapon attack, or most of those at least, would have been a good way to go.  They did sort of answer that with some of the zombies in expert mode.  It would have been great to see certain enemies use melee weapons that are the same or similar to what a player could use.  For example, a goblin warrior with a harpoon or flail type of weapon.  It is no wonder that the goblin archer is more of a pain to deal with than the others in their army prior to hardmode.

 

Save for the fact at least in my opinion, Goblin Archers have about the accuracy of a drunk guy being spun around in a swivel chair and blindfolded. But yeah, those Zombies in Expert Mode with weapons make short work of you at the start. I still think more enemies should have attacks, namely the enemies with Fighter AI that only lock onto your vertical location. It's too easy to lure them into a lava trap or get to a place you can cheese them.

 

Anyway, about the Baghnakhs, after thinking about it, it's not that they're 70 damage and uber fast that's the problem. The problem is, like I said, its availability. You can literally get it the moment you enter Hardmode and gather 15 Souls of Night to make the key. Of course, killing a Crimson Mimic freshly promoted to Hardmode is not exactly the easiest thing to do, but still. If you get one that early, it breaks melee weapons as a whole because it FAR outclasses virtually every Hardmode tier sword. It's just as broken as 1.2 and being able to get Spectre tools BEFORE ever getting anything else. Literally my first day of 1.2 I ended up with a Spectre Pickaxe and Hamaxe, both easily rendering my Drax and Molten Hamaxe worthless. Let's not forget how gamebreaking Spectre was too.

 

I feel any of the following would make the Baghnakhs more balanced, considering one can easily farm for it:

• Reduce the damage to around 50-60 so it's not a complete gamebreaker without making the weapon useless.
• Increase the use time slightly to around 9-10. For the record, the Terra Blade's use time is 15 before modifiers and any melee speed bonuses are considered. If the use time was 9, any +speed modifier would make it Insanely Fast.
• Make it only drop from the Crimson Mimic IF the player has reached the point of world progression where he or she is in the post Golem stage of the game, leaving it unchanged otherwise. Alternatively, make it post Plantera item instead.
• Reduce the drop rate. Probably NOT the best idea though.

There. I have four reasonable ways that they could be rebalanced without making them useless.

 

So, about my questions on the previous page (page 43), could anyone help me fill in some gaps in my knowledge or offer their feedback, especially in regards to allowing or banning the Crimson/Nimbus Rod for a summoner character?

[ShadowTiger]

I had a lot of respect for Yrimir's Summoner run on Youtube. I didn't really have any qualms with it.

It's just as broken as 1.2 and being able to get Spectre tools BEFORE ever getting anything else. Literally my first day of 1.2 I ended up with a Spectre Pickaxe and Hamaxe, both easily rendering my Drax and Molten Hamaxe worthless. Let's not forget how gamebreaking Spectre was too.

I take it this was before the change they made where defeating Plantera unlocks the Hardmode dungeon, where Ectoplasm drops, which lets us make the Spectral gear?

I can see how we'd get the Baghnakhs early, but not ectoplasm anymore. I wish. I hate mining and removing walls slowly.

[KingPridenia]

I had a lot of respect for Yrimir's Summoner run on Youtube. I didn't really have any qualms with it.

I take it this was before the change they made where defeating Plantera unlocks the Hardmode dungeon, where Ectoplasm drops, which lets us make the Spectral gear?

I can see how we'd get the Baghnakhs early, but not ectoplasm anymore. I wish. I hate mining and removing walls slowly.

 

That's what happened to me. I was on a 1.1.2 world and went straight to the dungeon. After a while, I had enough Ectoplasm to make the Spectre Armor and all of its tools. It wasn't until later that they made HM dungeon monsters spawn post Plantera and eventually began to add the Chlorophyte Bar requirement and now you have to actually make Spectre Bars from the former and Ectoplasm. Let's not forget I also got a Paladin's Hammer from my first Paladin kill. It pretty much trivialized everything because before, my Excalibur wasn't knocking back the HM dungeon skeletons enough to prevent them from reaching me, and that's with full Hallowed melee and Legendary Excalibur. It was literally useless. Not to mention my Megashark was just hitting 1s or otherwise single digits on them as well as my Harp. Of course, I'm pretty sure I'd have done much more damage if I was using the ranged or magic helmet instead, but at that point, I didn't want to sacrifice any defense since the monsters STILL hurt like hell even with 60+ defense.

 

I pretty much broke 1.2 because of that. I'm almost positive that it didn't register the Mechanical boss kills either, because a few nights in, I got the message you get before The Twins attack you. I don't want to sound like I'm flaming Re-Digit, but I do wish some balancing was done BEFORE updating. Maybe even allowing a few people to beta test like Pedguin did 1.3? I remember that's when Cenx nerfed Fossil Armor's thrown item retention rate because of how it was too powerful at 75% chance down to 50%. Then again, I guess it's hard to truly see how balance plays out until the masses play it. Same for bugs; devs can test all they want, but they will never find and patch EVERY SINGLE bug.

 

I've been watching BaumProductions play a mod that adds a lot of cool new features although some are a bit ridiculous. For instance, I was looking at the Exxo Avalon mod's wiki and they have an "Ultrashark" with a use time of 2. For the record, that's twice as many bullets shot per second as a Chain Gun. They also have a lot of items that are borderline hacking, such as this one drill I saw Baum use that literally shredded a 4x14 area of blocks in nearly a split second. I do approve of armor being able to get modifiers though. Speaking of which, using an Inventory Editor, you can give your armor in vanilla Terraria modifiers, but it seems only modifiers that accessories can get stick. What I wouldn't do for legitimate Menacing reforges on all of my armor sets. Or all Warding if I planned to tank.

 

Also, watching Ningishu defeat the Lunar Pillars on Expert. Goodness, the monsters there deal over 200 damage a hit in offensive Beetle armor! And your best potion only heals 150 (since Super Healing Potions to my knowledge can't be made prior to the Moon Lord's defeat). I'm wondering if Ningishu's character Yuri had the Worm Scarf equipped or not; one time she took like 220-230 damage from a single hit. It seems the Worm Scarf and Endurance Potions are almost mandatory there. Then again, if you can beat the Moon Lord naked with no buffs and only 100 Life, I don't see why the pillars would be impossible to no damage run through. Probably just have to fight a lot smarter than trying to facetank. Then again, facetanking on Expert Mode is a death waiting to happen, considering early HM monsters are already doing triple digit damage, making melee builds suicidal unless you're using a full yo-yo setup or one of the long-ranged melee weapons.

 

So yeah, started working on my summoning only playthrough guide. I'm working on just starting with the weapons and armor and their availability, then summoning-specific accessories, buffs, etc. As of now, I plan to write the guide under the assumption given how the two rain cloud rods work, the player will allow their usage, despite not being a summoning weapon, although the cloud's behavior isn't any different than using a sentry minion. By the same token, assuming the player allows the Nimbus Rod and its lesser counterpart, wouldn't that make the Clinger Staff fair game too?

 

Note to self; get back to playing my caster pure (Black Mage) soon so I can begin having Black Mage's dead body buried all over my world.

[KingPridenia]

Sorry for the double post, but I just got the Sick Throw achievement. Now I'm sitting on enough materials to make one set and one set only of one of the final armors. Problem is that I'm having a hard time picking, although my character is melee-centric at this time. Should I go for Solar Flare first if that's the case? Also tempted to try for the Cosmic Car Key and build myself around the Terrarian. If it matters, so far my Luminite tier equipment that I own:

 

-Daybreak

-Solar Eruption

-Vortex Beater

 

Should I just go all the way and make Solar Flare first since my character is chiefly melee based, then work towards getting the other three sets?

 

I suppose now my goal is going to be to unlock all the achievements or try to. Don't know why I'm being such a completionist, but meh.

[Nathaniel]

Good luck.  I unlocked all but the two longest to obtain fishing achievements.  I have also done nearly everything in expert mode (on a corrupt world) except for defeat the Moon Lord.  I tell you, in expert mode, when you struggle to defeat certain bosses, you feel like your development is hindered until you finally can find a way to break through.  All those deaths with that one moment where you yell out "Damn it!" (but I calm down a few seconds later)  Not against bosses though.  I expect death a lot of the time there, and I'm like "Yep."  Mobility is so important in expert mode.  If you are not good at attacking while moving around a lot, that is definitely something to work on.  Melee weapons in general I find it to be a bad idea a lot of the time.  In normal mode, you can get away with swinging a sword the vast majority of the time, but in expert mode, you are more inclinded to go for a bow, gun, or magic weapon on a regular basis.

 

I have been playing around a lot in both normal and expert mode with the wizard class route.  I have to say, it's a lot of fun.  You got to collect a lot of stars, daybloom, moonglow, and deathweed for sure.  Need those mana regeneration and magic power potions.

 

Speaking of classes, it would be lovely if one of these days we could round up some sort of quartet.  A warrior, a ranger, a wizard, and a summoner, based on the four pillars of the lunar events.  Heck, even design a house based around those four pillars, thus split into four sections of nearly equal size, and even decide which NPC belongs to which pillar.  I'd have my preference toward being the wizard, of course.  If developing from the beginning though, some would initially be at a disadvantage when it comes to being their class.  The summoner especially, since you can't really go that route until you have the bee armor.  Thankfully, they can still attack with any other sort of preferred weapon on top of their summoning.

[Orithan]

I personally think having Summoner and Throwing getting their own distinguished classes was a bad move on Re-Logic's part. Summoning feels like it should have remained a subclass of Magic whereas Throwing a subclass of Melee. Also to mention that the core mechanics behind Summoning (as a class) are very bland and uncreative. The summons themselves are fine, just rather the core mechanics of summoning are boring and unimaginative due to it just clicking with staff x to summon minions,

[KingPridenia]

I personally think having Summoner and Throwing getting their own distinguished classes was a bad move on Re-Logic's part. Summoning feels like it should have remained a subclass of Magic whereas Throwing a subclass of Melee. Also to mention that the core mechanics behind Summoning (as a class) are very bland and uncreative. The summons themselves are fine, just rather the core mechanics of summoning are boring and unimaginative due to it just clicking with staff x to summon minions,

 

I agree with Throwing; it should have just been melee or ranged damage. It has ZERO hardmode support; Grenades just aren't cutting at and you can easily kill yourself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in that update that removed the ability to use damage hazards to avoid getting hurt, does that include no longer being able to use a Grenade immediately after getting hit to bypass being hit by the explosion?

 

Summoning I think is okay personally. It just needs a bit more support. The problem is that if you're doing a pure Summoner playthrough, you literally have to grind until you hit the 1 in 10,000 chance of getting your first weapon. Melee is spoon-fed weapons at the start and ranged has tons of bows that are easily crafted. Magic gets at least a Wand of Sparking as of 1.3 and Gem Staves are easy enough to make. But Summoning literally has nothing. If anything, the Slime Staff should have had a higher drop rate or be a possible surface chest loot. There is no reason one of the weakest weapons in the game should be so rare. Of course, if this happens, its value would have to drop a lot. I propose that if this would happen, its resale value should be around 20 Silver, down from 2 Gold. Also wouldn't hurt if the Slime Staff and Hornet Staff had a small buff, the former to 9 damage and the latter to at least 12 damage.

 

Taking 6 hours or longer just to start a Summoner only playthrough is not fun, although Yrimir did it, AND on a Hardcore character to boot. On another note, it's no wonder most people simply provide their Summoner with the Slime Staff. Also, it is discouraging to have to pretty much get to post Plantera stage before Summoners start becoming effective as a standalone class.

 

Back up to my question earlier, I'll probably go for the Solar Flare armor first, since my character is already strongly built around melee. I may keep defensive Beetle around to help with the Moon Lord and Celestial Towers.

[Nathaniel]

When I thought about it, I would agree with most of your points Adam.  First off, it would make for three main classes that could split up into two subclasses.

 

Warrior:  Fighter (swords, spears, and flails), or Ninja (throwing weapons, boomerangs, and yoyos)

Ranger:  Archer (bows), or Gunslinger (guns)

Magic Users:  Wizard (magic weapons - direct damage), Summoner (minion staves + weapons that also summon temporary minions, such as the Bee Keeper - there should have been more of these kinds of weapons)

 

As for throwing damage, I actually would have extended that category, because otherwise melee would easily be the largest category of damage types.  I would have extended throwing damage to include all types of boomerangs and yoyos, since those are thrown, even though not consumable.  Thus shurikens, throwing knives, grenades, etc. I would categorize as consumable throwing weapons.  Plus, with the weapons listed above, you could have three main damage types, each with two sub damage types.

[KingPridenia]

Tried a character in Hallowed Armor out in the Hardmode dungeon to retrieve the Vampire Knives from the Crimson Chest...and I got my ass kicked twice. I was so pissed that I jumped onto my main character in a sheer fit of rage. Either I was sorely under-equipped or the dungeon got much harder all of the sudden, but I didn't make it but 30 seconds both attempts before being forced to teleport out. So enraged at this point, I go full on M. Bison mode with my main and his newly made Solar Flare armor to give the dungeon residents the ass kicking of their lives. Needless to say, it wasn't fair in the slightest; Solar Eruption tore through them like a molten knife through butter. Even a Paladin was slain in a mere 3 or so seconds before he knew what hit him.

 

Thing is, I didn't even have far to travel either, but my first attempt I got blindsided by one of those damn Ragged Casters, then a Sniper got me really low. Potions are worthless as hell; who the hell thought 150 HP recovery when most enemies can hit 100+ end-game and on Expert Mode one of the Lunar Event monsters can OHKO you from maximum life was a good idea (EDIT: I found out that was a bug)!? I luckily escaped with 60 HP and lit on fire with a nice 40s timer on Potion Sickness. Second attempt some Diabolists decided to spawn where they shouldn't and with the help of a Necromancer, they ran me out of the dungeon, this time with 80 HP left and 15s left on Potion Sickness. I was thoroughly pissed at this point and jumped onto my main character and got some heavily disproportionate revenge.

 

Lesson learned? Going into the dungeon with Hallowed armor and a Hel-Fire Yo-Yo with only 400 life is a curb stomping waiting to happen. I wonder if the Flesh Knuckle could have hurt me, because I don't remember the dungeon in Hardmode being nearly THAT brutal unless I was just very unlucky.

 

Speaking of potions...am I the only one that thinks Potion Sickness should be affected by how much you heal? For instance, the base debuff lasts 60 seconds, right? So it would be something like this instead:

 

Mushroom - 30 seconds

Lesser Healing Potion - 40 seconds

Healing Potion - 50 seconds

Greater Healing Potion - 60 seconds

Super Healing Potion - 80 seconds

 

Because let's face it, especially in Expert Mode, potions are almost completely useless. Even if you had the accessory to reduce the cooldown to 45 seconds, what good is it if you lose all the life you just healed less than a second later? If you have to use a potion...you're screwed. And yes, I did see one of the Solar Pillar monsters OHKO a player from 500 HP. What good is 200 HP recovery when in Expert Mode most Lunar Event monsters can hit 200+ in a SINGLE HIT? None. You need potions, you're dead. Period.

 

So yeah, going to be painstakingly working towards all achievements after unlocking two more tonight. Maybe I'll finally quit Terraria once it's done? Or maybe I'll try a Hardcore Expert Mode run and end up breaking my keyboard because I end up dying before even getting my first weapon. Okay, I think I could survive longer than that, but I'm just saying, especially because if with Hallowed gear in normal mode I'm being forced to warp out of the dungeon within 15 seconds of being within the dungeon, Expert Mode will kill me before I can even react. Then again, I'm never going to be a true player unless I beat the game entirely on Expert Mode. It's just I AM going to have to die. A LOT. It's bad enough I actually delete my characters and their maps just for ONE death being a perfectionist. Speaking of which, I need to get killed by a trap for an achievement.

 

EDIT: Cleaned up my post a lot. A few too many F-bombs, even with stars, everyone knows what I'm trying to say.

Edited by RedmageAdam, 24 August 2015 - 01:10 AM.

[Nathaniel]

Expert Mode is not supposed to be fair.  At least not by the time you reach the lunar events.  At that point, you die in seconds if you don't have a completely diabolical strategy, or one that involves some repetitive hit and run maneuver on a minecart.  I've gotten past those with a lot of struggle to the point where it just isn't enjoyable, even when you know what to do.  As for Expert Mode Moon Lord, I have not a prayer, as it's the one thing I have never been successful at in that mode.  I think a more reasonable challenge element would have been +50% to damage and life, rather than double, and keeping the same monster kill limit for the lunar events (100, rather than 150).  Thankfully those Stardust Cells are at least exploitable, making that pillar the easiest.

 

Expert Mode is for those who want their skills put to the big test.  It's for those who can take the heat.  I can at least take that heat until the lunar events.

 

If you are aiming toward perfection, you won't find it in Expert Mode.  In the standard mode, I did manage to not die with one character until the lunar events.

[KingPridenia]

To be honest, Expert Mode really isn't that interesting save for a small number of items that aren't all they're cracked up to be. Plus in reality, Terraria's balance has always been horrible. Look at 1.1 if you played during that time. Hardmode was extremely unbalanced; EVERYTHING hit like a truck. I'm talking 60+ through Molten armor. And you STILL have Healing Potions that recover a pitiful 100 life and their minute long cooldown. Going through my first time in Hardmode, it was a struggle. I found myself running from enemies because I was too weak to fight them. I don't find it fun being forced to run from combat or having to rely on cheesy tactics to defeat common enemies. But then you compare the enemies that deal too much damage too fast to the bosses. The bosses didn't hurt nearly as much, but instead they had tons of HP, making survival more a war of attrition than making them do 90+ damage a hit with any attack and being like "lol gl dodging".

 

It's just odd when many times normal enemies do like 60-100 damage but the bosses only do that kind of damage by means of attacks you pretty much have to get hit by on purpose (i.e Skeletron Prime's spinning). Thing is, the power creep is massive too. Back in 1.0.4, the best weapon was the Fiery Greatsword for pure damage at like 34 or so? Then in 1.0.5 we have Night's Edge which was in the low 40s. In 1.1 we get Excalibur which I think had 50 base attack? Going to 1.2, the strongest sword is now 80 attack with beams that deal 1.5x damage that got buffed to 88 damage later (and another buff in 1.3). Now in 1.3? Meowmere laughs at the people that wasted 10+ Platinum trying to get a Legendary Terra Blade; Meowmere STARTS at 200 damage. The Terra Blade couldn't even reach 200 damage in 1.2.4.1 even with the most offensively oriented loadout. Where in 1.1 the mechanical bosses were to be feared, in 1.3 they are so pathetically easy, mostly thanks to all the overpowered crap you can get farming Hallowed/Crimson/Corrupt Mimics...

[Orithan]

I will agree that Hardmode as unbalanced in 1.1, but I think you are exaggerating it a bit. Very few things did damage in the numbers you were making out to be in HM, but those that did were not badly nerfed for the most part. IIRC the only mobs that hit for huge numbers in HM were the Enchanted Sword/Cursed Hammer, Anglerfish, Green Jellyfish and maybe the HM Bats (Giant Bats were nerfed), Werewolves and Skeleton Archers. All of those, bar the Skeleton Archers and Illumant Bats were easy to deal with unless you get caught off guard.

This lack of balance in 1.1 HM can be more attributed to the fact that your HP did not scale to help ease with the high damage values. HM felt like it was designed with characters that have more than 400 HP from the damage scaling occurring at the same speed as in pre-Hardmode. If you could have even 500 HP, transition into Hardmode would have been a lot easier and more seamless. IMO, I think the maximum HP cap should have been at least 500, maybe 600 in 1.1.

 

In regards to the rest of the scaling, each major update added a new endgame stage; which was balanced with the mindset that this would be the final update. In 1.0, Exploring Hell was the endgame and Skeletron was the boss that granted you access to this endgame. The Mech Bosses were designed to be the final bosses of the game in 1.1 - They were hard; actually defeating them before time ran out was as much of a challenge as merely surviving and they granted access to (then) overpowered weapons like Grungir and Megashark and Hallowed Armor and the Hamdrax once all were down. Plantera was designed to be the final boss in 1.2 (which was superseeded by by the optional Moon events and Duke Fishron in later updates), opening up endgame segments in the form of the Lizhard and HM Dungeon. 1.3 brought the Lunar Event and the Moon Lord, which represents the game's final boss.

The difference between the tiers is that the transition between 1.0 and 1.1 and then to 1.2 brought about nerfs to the endgame threats of their previous updates. All three of the 1.0 major bosses received heavy nerfs and the various endgame parts of the game were made less threatening as 1.1 (or more like 1.0.6, which is when most of the balancing changes occurred) came about. Come 1.2, the three mechs were heavily nerfed to be easily beatable within the time you were given, greatly cut down on the grinding required to obtain their gear and a number of 1.1 mobs and mechanics (eg. Explosives) were also nerfed. However, there were no such nerfs in 1.3. All of the endgame stuff from 1.2 remained at their original power, lending to the resulting Lunar Event and Moon Lord scaling too high for players to realistically fight them.

IMO, your max HP cap should be at least 800 before the Lunar Event, as it appears to be designed with players that have that much HP in mind.

Edited by Orithan, 24 August 2015 - 02:38 AM.

[Nathaniel]

Well, either increase the max HP, or have much better improvements to defense, since each deal with the same sort of survivability, or reduce the ridiculous damage counts of enemies in the lunar events.  I do agree that the damage counts in the lunar events and moon lord is absolutely insane, mostly in expert mode.  Even the angry trapper in expert mode regularly does 100+ damage, but is easily avoidable if you pay attention and don't get too distracted by other types of enemies in the same area, such as the moss hornets.  But the lunar events is an insane swarm of very fast enemies.  The most annoying is perhaps the nebula pillar.  If you magic mirror back home in panic with a brain suckler on you, he will go with you.  One time I died several times back at home (in expert mode) because after the next few respawns, the brain suckler was there to do its attack, to only again die quickly right at home.  Cleanup of gravestones on aisle 1.

 

I think it's good to make the player find strategies that aren't just dependent on having a very high defense, maximum HP, and bum rushing an opponent out in the open.  That's a good challenge.  Thinking outside the box is good.  That's how I found ways to defeat Skeletron and Plantera in expert mode, which otherwise would have been nearly impossible without gear that you get later on.  But when they are very fast and shoot a lot of stuff at you to the point where they are only mathematically avoidable and can kill you in seconds if you don't play some extreme form of cat and mouse, it can get ridiculous, and is no longer a reasonable challenge, and is not enjoyable (ahem, lunar events).  It becomes comparable to playing Armageddon Quest in ZC.