121 replies to this topic

[Joe123]

Fixing the bugs is more important than replying to the bugs with any response at all. Sometimes there is no need for a post by a Dev to request an elaboration. Occasionally you'll find a situation where there will be an entry on Shardstorm but not in its matching bug report that it's been fixed.

Personally I don't think this should happen at all. Replying to bug threads is important.

[Freedom]

Freedom, would you stop picking fights in random topics and turning everything into a zc suxorz it will crsah your computer and kill your dog debate.

I'm not picking fights, I'm stating a truth, the fight comes when people want to deny that truth, or shoot the messenger.

They all end up like a bad episode of South Park where nobody learns a lesson at the end.

I beg to differ, now everyone is admitting these bugs exist and putting little disclaimers in there posts saying so, like you did, instead of blaming my operating system, my paint shop pro program, or just denying them all together.
So while it may have done little good, it still did some good.

Last I heard you just released a full length 2.5 quest in a recent beta. A hundred or so builds ago I made a Tetris clone with zc, and in build 1004 I released an Arena Shooter 'SSS'...which all seem pretty bug free if you play them in the correct build.

Yes, and there are critical bugs I can't do anything about that are game stoppers if people just happen to zig when they should have zagged, and the time spent working around other bugs convinced me that it was a waste of time to try and start another quest until this program is made more bug free, so I started a tileset and even that has been a crashing pain in the arse.

..Now I'm not saying that there are no bugs left, but I am saying that it's not a critical mass explosion imminent scenario like you make it out to be.

Thank you for the disclaimer admitting that there are bugs, I don't make it out to be a critical mass explosion of bugs, but yet I, unlike the developers, don't try to deny they are there of blame some outside cause like paint shop pro.
They are there, they are critical, even if they aren't in mass.

[Geoffrey]

I don't mean to rent-a-mod, so consider this my humble opinion to what has happened to this thread. Seriously guys, calm down. There have been way too many fights on PZC lately and quite honestly, it's starting to piss me off. Personally, I have only had one fatal crash in the entire time I've used 2.5. I reported a bug about a year ago, and again about a month ago, to my knowledge it still has not been fixed. If you have a problem with things like this, post in the appropriate forum and thread, instead of taking over someone else's.
As far as I can tell, this thread is for what will happen post 2.5, not what is happening to 2.5.

Back on topic...

Now that I think about it, I think the big question post 2.5 is: 'Screen Scrolling.' Who want's it, and what is the price?

I don't know if you know this, but blue_knight (I think that was his username) has made a side scrolling script that actually works, I'm not sure of the mechanics of it though. Still, you're right, built-in side scrolling would be nice.

[Jupiter]

ALttP scrolling would be really great...it would allow people to build more interesting areas because you would not have to worry nearly as much about objects at the borders of your screens or having corners covered...

[Freedom]

I don't mean to rent-a-mod, so consider this my humble opinion to what has happened to this thread. Seriously guys, calm down. There have been way too many fights on PZC lately and quite honestly, it's starting to piss me off. Personally, I have only had one fatal crash in the entire time I've used 2.5. I reported a bug about a year ago, and again about a month ago, to my knowledge it still has not been fixed. If you have a problem with things like this, post in the appropriate forum and thread, instead of taking over someone else's.
As far as I can tell, this thread is for what will happen post 2.5, not what is happening to 2.5.

Back on topic...

I don't know if you know this, but blue_knight (I think that was his username) has made a side scrolling script that actually works, I'm not sure of the mechanics of it though. Still, you're right, built-in side scrolling would be nice.

Well Onyx, I guess it made it into this thread because this thread is part of the problem and has been for over 6 years now.

You can't have post until you make it past present.
People have been calling for more more more in Zelda classic for years, without being willing to deal with what it is and has now.

It's like Yoda said about Luke... always he looks to the future of what might be or maybe be without his mind on where he is at and what he is doing....

The beta suggestion thread was closed years ago by DN to work towards a stable release.

People continue to ask for more in spite of it, they are unwilling to do what it takes to get what is already there working properly.

The direction that L took was to give the people what they want, and forgo a version that could actually be used for it's intended purpose.
This continues to this day, read the channel log, and people continue to ask for more to this day.

How many years should those who beta tested the builds be expected to wait for a little pay off on their time with a stable version
After all, it's what they worked for.

How much more should be added to satisfy many who never report bugs or build actual quests to satisfy them over the ones who DID work towards that end?

You talk about being pissed off that people discuss this and inconvenience you in a thread that should have never really been started in the first place.

I scroll back these pages and see all these names of people wanting this and that, and then look at the bug forums, and see very few of these names over there trying to help get what is already here stable
That's what should piss you off, because until THAT happens, this thread ain't gonna happen.

[Shoelace]

2.5... 2.5... 2.5... lol.

I was just talking to my girlfriend the other day and why I haven't been making EotM. She keeps telling me to make the game but on another problem because she has heard me vent and vent about 2.5.

"Why is Freedom so worked up?" people seem to not understand that. It is simple. We have put a lot of our life into Zelda Classic. I know I have. He more than anyone has poured hours and hours into bug reports and such.

Back in 2005 I started to make EotM, and then a developer had convinced me in March of 2006 to move my game to 2.5 because quote "It will be out in 6 months". So I did. I put a lot of work into my game, I scraped a lot of it because I like to make the most of what version I am making things on. So 6 months go and other go and another goes and another. To the point where it is April 2010.

The point to all of this is there hasn't been a release for 6-7 years. And people are like but you can still make your quest on a beta. It is a beta for a reason. So am I going to have to go, this quest is on beta 1034, this quest is on 1503, this quest is on 1834... etc. I would have hundreds of betas on my computer. Which I do. The reason: Because things update, things change beta to beta. That is my reason why I don't make my game, because if I make my game right now, say for example on beta 1234, once the final release comes out, all of my stuff that I previously did would be broken. It has happened throughout the 6 years.

We need a release. But the thing is every time I look, there is something else being added. And that is what breaks things, and it is just an endless cycle. If you look back to the 2003-2006 days, Zelda Classic has died. It is no where, where it used to be. The reason is because people are fed up with waiting. I am now 25. I am ready to move on with my life, and others that are newcomers are just plain confused at the state of Zelda Classic. You know how hard it is to explain to people on Youtube that want to play my game, to where the original 2.10 download is, and where the quest is, and such. Everything is so disorganized. Everyone that plays my game in 2.5 can't complete the game because of bugs, and... it is just a mess.

Anyways, we need a release. We need to stop adding things and focus. Focus on making it as stable as possible without adding new things. Once you make a stable release, add your things. People aren't angry when you release things close to each other. 1.92 183 and 184 where released close to each other and it was fine. It seems like there are focusing one day, and then adding one day, but that becomes an endless cycle. 2.5 was supposed to be released in 2006. It was "Near Completion". Just like it is now. It is like at a off away standpoint of where we where then and now, is like we didn't move at all.

In short, focus on stabling the builds and than focus on adding things. That way we will stop complaining because we will have our release, and the others can focus on the adding of features for the next release.

By the way, there are lot of new people always telling me and people, that we need to be patient and telling me to shut up and such... Well, yeah, you guys have only been waiting for like 2 years or so.. and in that period you are learning the program. Well we have been waiting 6 years and we know the program. Can you really blame us for waiting ZC to succeed. It would be sad to see ZC die, but in reality ZC has died, I just want it to be resurrected.

[Gleeok]

Look, as I've said before I completely understand that the long development time should have been split into smaller segments so there would be only a few years at most between releases, and I agree with that; I am not not arguing with you there.
..But here's my problem: Who do I get to ***** at? ..Global variables are EVIL. ..I want to strangle whomever made the damn GUI into one giant network of super friends. ..I hate C. Why does Kool-Aid only come in two flavors -Lemon-Lime, and everything else? Why Kool-Aid, why? ...And who are you *****ing at exactly? Me? Everyone that was working on it at that time isn't anymore and they're probably not going to read this anyway. If you're questioning whether or not new features are being put in then the answer is still no.

Personally I think "post 2.5" or "cool new feature idea X" is a perfectly legitimate topic of conversation and is encouraged to discuss. Since 2.5 is in the stabilizing/bug fixing for release phase it doesn't matter anyway, since those ideas will have to wait 'till the next cycle.

[Jupiter]

Please keep in mind that I am very appreciative of all the work that developers and testers are putting into 2.5.

I have asked this simple question before, I humbly ask it again: is there a goal or target release date?

Projects move towards completion when there is a goal; there should be a target.

July 1, 2010?

[Freedom]

Gleeok,

L is still working on it, and still improving and upgrading features that were added a couple years ago and then arguing about what is and what isn't a bug, instead of just fixing the damn bugs and stopping his additions to things like the scripting and the enemy editor, or bigger windows in the gui, who really gives a **** about window size in the first place, if it doesn't work anyway.
While serious bugs remain ignored.
as Shoelace said, that cycle could go on for years, as it already has.

The bug with warp tiles and the roc's feather cost me 20 hours to work around in the quest I just released, and L insists there is no bug, so since he insists there is no bug, then the rest of you can expect to do the same should you build and release a quest.

same with room state carry overs, he insisted there was no bug, I went back and pulled old beta reports where I had reported it once before, Jman fixed the bug and then I confirmed it fixed, yet L still maintains it is no bug, anfter proof was provide to the contrary.

Same bugs have to be fixed over and over and over again, only now an argument has to ensue as to weather it is a bug or not, what bull****!

If that's going to be his attitude then there will NEVER be a stable release, so then why do the developers and others insist that there will be and that this one is almost completely bug free at this moment, only to be proven wrong and then deny the crap?

The dishonesty of it all is what has grown to be my main problem with it.

Edited by Freedom, 25 April 2010 - 09:35 PM.

[Nathaniel]

I am sure there is some sort of target or goal for the overall process. I am not sure they put any sort of definite timetable on it, much like the Bush administration probably didn't over Iraq. There is a lot of uncertainty I guess when developing ZC (at least from what I witness every time the discussion comes up), especially when there are a lot of bugs to fix, including an uncertain amount of other bugs that will come up later. But is it better to promise a time and break it, or is it better not to make any promises to begin with? I would probably go with the latter, honestly, despite it not being any sort of straight answer, because it is one of those straight answers that is very hard to end up being right about.

I can certainly understand the point of view of the developers, or at least some of them, including the ones who post in this thread. At the same time, I can completely understand the points that Freedom, Shoelace, and others on that end are making. There is a lot of long and hard work going on with both the ZC developers and quest designers. Sure it is a free program with developers devoting their free time, but at the same time, those making the quests and those helping find the bugs are doing exactly the same thing. That sort of point will always end in a stalemate. It's as if these quest makers were led down a road that at first they were completely unaware of until they found themselves on it for a very long time, as if it was the Bermuda triangle without being aware they were in it at first.

A lot is being said, and a lot of claims are made. I doubt anybody has the perfect perspective on it, and I don't think I ever will come close to having it myself, no matter how much I scratch my head over it. For those who are complaining about Freedom and those who agree with him, let me just say this: I completely understand where they are coming from. 6+ years is a very long time to wait for one stable release. Lives change dramatically in that period, and this is a period that has lasted roughly the entire second half of ZC's existence. That is significant when you think about it. When are we going to be close to a stable 2.5? I don't think anybody will truly know. I doubt the developers truly know themselves, mainly because of the nature of what this developing is. To make a prediction probably wouldn't even be an educated guess. Perhaps a wild guess at best. I just don't think there are any good answers to it all. I am completely baffled by it all myself. It would be nice to see a stable release, because not only does it have an effect on AGN, but it has one on every ZC community that exists. It is easy to point fingers, but it is much harder to do what needs to be done (which is what Freedom is calling on for anybody who is ready, willing, and able), and we all know that the developers are not the only people with a contributing role, as most pivotal as theirs are.

[Jupiter]

I am sure there is some sort of target or goal for the overall process. I am not sure they put any sort of definite timetable on it, much like the Bush administration probably didn't over Iraq. There is a lot of uncertainty I guess when developing ZC (at least from what I witness every time the discussion comes up), especially when there are a lot of bugs to fix, including an uncertain amount of other bugs that will come up later. But is it better to promise a time and break it, or is it better not to make any promises to begin with? I would probably go with the latter, honestly, despite it not being any sort of straight answer, because it is one of those straight answers that is very hard to end up being right about.

I really appreciate Nathaniel's ability to see the point of view of people on both sides of this, and to recognize at the same time that we are all on the same side. But let me offer my thoughts once more.

Look: it's always better to under promise and over deliver. But this ain't Iraq. That's an open and therefore chaotic system. This is a closed system: it's coding. What is possible to achieve is possible to achieve and that won't be changed by outside events.

Further, in a war, concealing your goals is part of the strategy. You don't want your opponents to make their plans based on knowing your plans. This ain't a war. We're all on the same team. It would be our goal.

In my experience (and I have some) it goes like this: no goal; no delivery. Without an announced target things can drag, and drag, and drag. And then drag, and drag, and drag, and drag.

I understand the fear of making any promises when there is some uncertainty, but even in the face of uncertainty humans need to aim at something, and usually they accomplish more when others know what the target is. I know this is true for me. And it seems to me like we are within striking distance anyway.

Yes, under promise and over deliver, but if you're not setting a goal your efforts are not focused. Making a public promise focuses your efforts because you want to reach that goal both for the people depending on you and for yourself. It motivates you, and the best people want to use everything they can to motivate themselves.

Let me be clear: I'm not down on any of the developers, not one iota. I have not been involved in developing at all and I certainly don't have standing to tell anybody who is devoting their time to bringing 2.5 to launch that they aren't doing good enough. Because they are. They deserve thanks from everybody who plays or authors quests. I am so grateful for every minute they are working on the project...and they aren't devoting minutes, they are devoting hours. Hundreds of hours. I am acutely aware of that and tremendously appreciative. I am not in any way criticizing the developers: I am rooting for them! And this is my best advice.

I know this: so long as things are open ended in public (even if there is a private goal), the future of ZC will be the following: ...

"..." And for the sake of the community and the developers, I suggest that "..." is not a healthy way to keep approaching this. Setting a goal, a goal that seems more than reachable, and sticking to it won't just be good for the players and the quest authors, it will be good for the developers. It would be motivating and exciting. It would be a goal to rally around.

I think Gleeok commented that there are only a few critical bugs to be worked out. Most commenters are saying they have not experienced many, or any, crashes in recent months at all---I have not! We're in striking distance! So, while I know this is not at all my call, it's the call of the developers, who we all owe our gratitude to, it seems like it's time to set a goal and hammer it out: July 1, 2010?

I bet it could be done.

[Shoelace]

Well I think the point is, there needs to be focus. I am not bashing the developers or anything, Because I have respect for them. They have done a lot. My thing was the whole, "It would be released 2006", and then things were added, "It will be released in 2007" and then things were added, etc. I just feel like I was lied to, when they tell me, it will be released soon. Because yes, it does look like a release is in the horizon, but it looked that way years ago too. So if they tell us that they are serious about releasing it by the end of the year. Then I would help with the bug reports, as well as no additions, etc. If we worked together we can release a stable release this year. But when we are left in the dark, we are blind. I just read the ZC log and read what is going on. And throughout the years I am just so sad that it the additions just prolong it because I really want to get back to making the things I love.

[Gleeok]

It's really not so much an issue of focus as it is an issue of banging my head against the wall until I pass out while trying to figure out the cause of some of these bugs. It's an immensely frustrating situation, and that's why I get irked every time Freedom quotes something out a post I made and turns it around when I really didn't want to go there. zquest.cpp (starting to be a running gag I suppose. =P ) alone has like 25,000 lines of code. (That's more than every zscript script ever made combined into one giant script lol.) So if anyone posts a bug report that can't be reproduced and no test quest given, then It's just not going to get fixed anytime soon. I mean seriously now.

Also I don't have as good working knowledge of the code base or as much experience as guys like as _L_ or Saffith do, so if anyone can give an estimated time frame guess for release it would be one of them. Last time I tried that I said "March" ..but it's April now so it seems I suck at that... And hey, I'd like to know too!



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[Freedom]

I thought it was a given Gleeok that I don't blame you for this fiasco, you're a new kid on the block.
You're doing a great job.
Saffith is doing a great Job.
Joe123 is doing a great job.

The problem dates back further than that.

Shoelace said " promised a release in 06... 07." try promised a release within 2 weeks of when the 211b10b was released.
That was a really good build, and didn't have the bloat you have to pilfer through now to search for a bug.

It should be understood that those of us that were testing back then and there were many of us, were doing it for a reason.
We wanted a stable engine to use to build quests with.
We found ourselves in a situation that then went on year after year after year, of reporting bugs only to have them fixed and return in the next beta released.
So with each beta released the whole damn program had to be tested again.
Testing became a full time job leaving no time to build quests, and with each release a promise that any day now would be the payoff of a stable version.
It never came.
Took me over 4 years to complete SwanSong~Genesis and let me tell you, I'm disappointed with it.
There are critical bugs that can kill you, if you just happen to do the wrong thing.
All you have to do is collect a key and quit for the night, and your screwed, that key will be GONE when you start back up.
The hours spent working around other bugs just to get it released.
I won't do it again

I take exception to this part of your post

It's really not so much an issue of focus as it is an issue of banging my head against the wall until I pass out....

Yes, it is about focus, it's just that the comments on lack of focus weren't directed at you personally.
It's all about the focus on the direction ZC has taken as a whole.
Look at the change log even now, much is being done that isn't focused on fixing the bugs so there can be a stable build.
Much is still being done to add to and improve some of the features that are already there.
while you can say there is no new features being added, it seems as though there is a complete rebuild going on of some that are already there.
The string editor works, why mess with it
the window sizes in the gui work, why mess with them.
why add more and more to scripting capabilities it's working isn't it?
The enemy editor is constantly being messed with, and each time serious bugs develop as a result.
The focus isn't on a stable release, the focus is still on more more more.

Edited by Freedom, 26 April 2010 - 11:34 AM.

[Shoelace]

But okay, I since I am doing a HoD update right now and yesterday I just finished testing up to Level 7 on the game, what I will do also when I have time is replay my quest on 2.5 and see what bugs will come up and I will post them so that we can weed out the bugs. But I am going to be so ticked off if I read on the log additions and additions and additions instead of the promised focus on bug fixs only which was promised in a thread in 2007-2008 I believe, than I think I will give up.