72 replies to this topic

[Moonbread]

Of course, with the Saharan Spy Set, you have to learn how to use YER (which some people can use really well) but with DR, you can't cloak or disguise whenever you feel like it. Also, people see the Familiar Fez and will typically be on the lookout.

[Beefster]

Engineer is a fantastic class when you know how to play one, Beefster. If you want to be an offensive engineer though, you need to use Gunslinger, and perhaps Widowmaker or the Pomson.

I know how to play Engineer correctly. Still only works in pubs. There is a reason why Engineer isn't played in competitive outside Highlander games.

Also, the whole point of having different items is to change the flavor of the game with different styles of playing. Also, on the subject of the equalizer- you were the one complaining that melee weapons are a joke. And then you get upset when they make ones that are designed to help a class fight with theirs?

I'm not against unlocks; I'm against fixing problems with unlocks. I want Valve to fix the underlying class.

Vanilla Pyro and Engineer just don't cut it if you want to be effective.

I agree with EZ on the Dead Ringer.

I guess if you think the Pyro should be an awful class, this makes sense.

They could leave the Degreaser exactly how it is now if vanilla Pyro were buffed. The problem right now is that there is no good reason to use vanilla Pyro.

[Mitchfork]

They could leave the Degreaser exactly how it is now if vanilla Pyro were buffed. The problem right now is that there is no good reason to use vanilla Pyro.

That's not a problem with the Degreaser though.

[Giggidy]

@Giggidy: The game wasn't nearly as balanced as you thought it was. There's a reason why most non-highlander teams consist of 1 Medic, 1 Demoman, 2 Scouts, and 2 Soldiers. The other 5 classes are mostly situational and just aren't up to par with the rest. Sure, it's better than TFC, where Medics were the main offensive class, but it isn't quite there.

A few problems with this.

Firstly, this only applies to competitive teams. You can argue that comp is the only "real" way to play all you want, but there's no escaping the fact that competitive matches play under some very different assumptions from how the game was designed. Comp teams are 6v6. I understand these small teams are due to time and effective coordination constraints, but the fact of the matter is: The game (and the maps) were intended to be played 12v12. You can't really complain that the game's balance breaks down at the 6v6 level any more than you can rightfully complain about 16v16 being terrible (which it is, but it's hardly Valve's fault). This has several, related effects:

- The vastly oversized maps makes movement much more important, which artificially devalues classes without movement options.

- The three classes that happen to have the best movement options available are the utility classes, designed to be capable of doing more or less any role within a pinch. This further artificially devalues the other classes due to their more specialized abilities. Notice the medic is the exception in more ways than one: Recent unlocks notwithstanding, he's the only one who can heal and provide ubers, so he sticks around even without the oh-so-important movement capability.

- It doesn't matter how good a class is at their particular specialization: What matters is the opportunity cost. No matter how good the Engie/Heavy is at defending, they have to be compared against not only the defensive abilities of every other class, but also the ability of every other class to provide different roles. When you pick Engie over Soldier, you gain some defensive ability but you lose movement options, striking power, and long-range capability. With teammates so scarce, this isn't a sacrifice you can really afford to make in comp. The choice is more difficult in 12v12 when each character doesn't have to pull so much weight on their own.

Unlocks, obviously, cause these assumptions to break down even further. Notice how much more popular the Heavy became in comp when he got movement and healing options in the form of the sandvich and the GRU. The Tomislav pushed this even further, though I do believe some of these weapons are banned in comp now. The Heavy became more useful because he became more capable in pulling his own weight, something desperately required for a good comp class.

Following from this, there's one option to run with if you seriously want to rebalance TF2 to make every class an effective choice at all times in comp play: Either equalize all the classes to some degree to make them always capable of doing everything themselves. In essence, make everyone a scout variant with some gimmicks.. I don't think this road will lead to a better game for anyone.




Secondly, it's a mistake to judge a class's worth by its average number of kills, or even by how often they're used. The real way to judge a class is what effect it has on the game, whether this effect creates situations that are tactically interesting or not.

An obvious example is the Spy. Yes, the Spy isn't very effective at actually getting kills against players who know what they're doing. That's not the spy's purpose: The spy's real purpose is the risk-reward curve of spychecking, and how it creates a price for distraction. There doesn't even need to be a single Spy on the server to create this risk-reward mechanic, the mere paranoia that a spy MIGHT be around is enough. This is why I think the Dead Ringer and the YER are great unlock designs: They add new layers and dimensions to the paranoia and how this affects the flow of the game. And why the Enforcer (or whatever it's called) is a terrible design because it distracts from the Spy's core purpose.

A more subtle example is the Pyro. No, the Pyro is not an ambush class. The Pyro's purpose is to enforce a cohesive team. Due to the Pyro's presence, you absolutely *cannot* Rambo your way through the enemy base, taking out everything by yourself, even if you really are just badass enough to dodge the flurry of bullets and quickscope headshot every time. The Pyro will eat you alive if you attempt this. The flamethrower is nigh-impossible to dodge once you're within its range, and you can't escape the Damage-over-Time effect without either a medkit (unlikely if you're in enemy territory), a teammate's help, or some water. And notice the careful placing of medkits and water on the original maps: Getting a medkit/diving into water usually requires retreating from the battle and going out of your way. The Pyro is one of the many factors built into the game to guide the flow of the map as being that of united fronts pushing against each other, rather than a wild free-for-all you see in most other FPSes.



Finally, I'm not just talking about game balance. There's many, many factors to TF2 that were carefully put together. From map design, visual style, to even character silhouettes. Even entire game modes are being tossed in now without much thought or effort. My complaint isn't that the balance is set off by the unlocks or that Max's head is stupid-looking*, it's that all of the careful thought put into the game is breaking down, all at once.


* Which it is, by the way. I'm sorry, but hot-pink bunny ears? TF2 never took itself seriously but there's a difference between something you can laugh with and something you can't help but laugh at.

Edited by Giggidy, 29 March 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[WindStrike]

If you want to be an offensive engineer though, you need to use Gunslinger, and perhaps Widowmaker or the Pomson.

It's even scarier when the offensive engineer is using vanilla.

Vanilla Pyro and Engineer just don't cut it if you want to be effective.

Vanilla Pyro was fixed when they added airblast. Not talking about blasting ubers away - it's reflecting projectiles. It's hard to land, but people that have mastered it can make a great counter to soldiers and demos (or in extreme cases of godliness, counter to Huntsman, lol).

Vanilla Engineer... even if his sentry is down and broken by an uber or demoman, he still has the dispenser and teleporter. Both are great supports for the entire team, especially for teams of sizes 8 and up.


Also, Spy + Cloak & Dagger can provide great intel for the rest of the team, pinpointing the positions of the enemy team for his team.

[Beefster]

The airblast is okay IMO. Problem is there are just too many ways to put out fire, so there's really no value to afterburn itself.
Originally:
- Medkits
- Supply Cabinet
- Water
- Medigun / Dispenser
Now: (Additionally)
- Jarate / Mad Milk
- Airblast
- Dead Ringer (reasonable)
- Conniver's Kunai
- Half-Zatoichi
- Manmelter
- Spycicle (kinda)
And there are plenty more ways to survive it. Pyro has been nerfed via everyone else's unlocks.
I really like my friend's (He goes by Ivory, BTW) idea of critical afterburn, which would actually encourage killing with fire instead of briefly igniting and killing with another weapon. (Puff and sting)
The Degreaser would then have the downside of no critical afterburn instead of the reduced afterburn damage.

Also, Pyro needs an SMG instead of a shotgun. She needs a little extra oomph at range.

Vanilla Engineer is plagued by slow build times. 21 seconds for dispensers and teleporters is way too long.

If I were to change him minimally, I would change all build times to 6 seconds (3 with the wrench) and change upgrades to only require 100 metal each. Right now, upgrading isn't really worth the time or the metal.

The Gunslinger is a crutch, really. Minisentries start with full health, so you can build them in plain sight of enemy with few problems. If I were to change it, I'd make the build start with no health and have it instantly destroyed by explosive damage (regardless of its current health).

[Zemious]

Speaking of the Pyro, I made this video an hour ago:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5HHSsZzqwA4

[Beefster]

In response to Giggidy: ideally, you'd have a game that is balanced at both the competitive level and the casual level. TF2 is pretty balanced at the casual level, but suffers serious balance problems at competitive. Anywhere in between is also unbalanced, but to a lesser degree.

I usually play on small servers, no bigger than 9v9. Once you get to 12v12, balance just doesn't matter, much like how Super Smash Bros is only "balanced" when playing with items. Yes, 12v12 is what the game was originally designed for, but they could have made the system more robust for smaller server sizes.

Problems with the classes that aren't played in comp:
- Pyro's fire (on its own) is less effective than other weapons. Fires are too easy to put out.
- Heavy is too slow.
- Engineer takes too long to set up buildings. Upgrades aren't usually worth it.
- Sniper requires a little too much setup time and doesn't have enough health.
- Spy depends too much on how bad the enemy team is.

[Zemious]

I play Medic as my main and I can safely say that I usually utilize an enemies Pyro flames to help with my ubercharge. That doesn't tell everyone to get caught on fire and come to me, it just means that the small damage tic helps with getting my uber faster

[Moonbread]

I'll address some of those for you:

- The Heavy is slow because he has a mini gun and 300 health. I think that's fair.

- You have no idea how useful Level 3 buildings are. Level 3 sentries can make people never leave the first area of a match, Level 3 dispensers can save so many lives, and Level 3 teleporters can cut out the unimportant parts of a map. I especially love and hate Level 3 teleporters, I remember playing a match where the opposing team kept getting closer and closer to taking our control point because they had 3 of them, and I finally snuck behind enemy lines with homewrecker and took them out, and it severely hindered them. Does it take a while to build? Of course it does- they're all insanely useful once they're Level 3. It wouldn't be fair if you could get them immediately.

- The whole purpose of the charge time for the sniper is so that it's fair and so you don't deal 400 damage every time you scope in. I am so sick of FPS's that have insta-kill sniping, because in real life, you will spend hours setting up the perfect shot. And you don't have that much health because you don't fight on the front lines! You find a nice spot to snipe and watch your back every now and then.

- All classes depend on how good or bad the enemy team is, to be honest. That's how all video games are played. It all comes down to skill, I know people who are insanely good with spy, and I've seen people who are insanely bad at spy. I've faced teams where every other person on the opposing team is awful, but they have one spy who keeps on putting us down despite most of us being better than them.

Also, I'm okay with the shotgun for the pyro- it's my favorite class to have it, because pyro moves at a decent speed and has the HP to back it up.

[Zemious]

I'll address some of those for you:

- The Heavy is slow because he has a mini gun and 300 health. I think that's fair.

- You have no idea how useful Level 3 buildings are. Level 3 sentries can make people never leave the first area of a match, Level 3 dispensers can save so many lives, and Level 3 teleporters can cut out the unimportant parts of a map. I especially love and hate Level 3 teleporters, I remember playing a match where the opposing team kept getting closer and closer to taking our control point because they had 3 of them, and I finally snuck behind enemy lines with homewrecker and took them out, and it severely hindered them. Does it take a while to build? Of course it does- they're all insanely useful once they're Level 3. It wouldn't be fair if you could get them immediately.

- The whole purpose of the charge time for the sniper is so that it's fair and so you don't deal 400 damage every time you scope in. I am so sick of FPS's that have insta-kill sniping, because in real life, you will spend hours setting up the perfect shot. And you don't have that much health because you don't fight on the front lines! You find a nice spot to snipe and watch your back every now and then.

- All classes depend on how good or bad the enemy team is, to be honest. That's how all video games are played. It all comes down to skill, I know people who are insanely good with spy, and I've seen people who are insanely bad at spy. I've faced teams where every other person on the opposing team is awful, but they have one spy who keeps on putting us down despite most of us being better than them.

Also, I'm okay with the shotgun for the pyro- it's my favorite class to have it, because pyro moves at a decent speed and has the HP to back it up.

Tomislav and Gloves of Urgently Running get rid of the Heavies slow down by a lot, and help build an uber faster too with the gloves.
I agree with everything else you said.

[Moonbread]

Tomislav is something I'd love to see taken out of the game, though. One thing I always preferred about the other miniguns is that you could at least get a decent surprise attack on a heavy. With Tomislav, they turn around and you're already dead.

[Mitchfork]

In response to Giggidy: ideally, you'd have a game that is balanced at both the competitive level and the casual level. TF2 is pretty balanced at the casual level, but suffers serious balance problems at competitive. Anywhere in between is also unbalanced, but to a lesser degree.

I usually play on small servers, no bigger than 9v9. Once you get to 12v12, balance just doesn't matter, much like how Super Smash Bros is only "balanced" when playing with items. Yes, 12v12 is what the game was originally designed for, but they could have made the system more robust for smaller server sizes.

Problems with the classes that aren't played in comp:
- Pyro's fire (on its own) is less effective than other weapons. Fires are too easy to put out.
- Heavy is too slow.
- Engineer takes too long to set up buildings. Upgrades aren't usually worth it.
- Sniper requires a little too much setup time and doesn't have enough health.
- Spy depends too much on how bad the enemy team is.

Competitive is balanced in that both teams have equal options to choose from. The fact that some classes/loadouts are generally more desired than others is not an indicator of poor balance.

[Beefster]

It's still an indication of poor design. That doesn't change how fun TF2 is...

As for building upgrades: it's always worth it to set up level 3 buildings during setup time on defense, but it's never worth it in a pinch. If you have time to set up a level 3 any other time, you're redundant, as the rest of the team is doing a fine job holding off the enemy without you.

I'm perfectly aware of the purpose of Sniper's charge time. It just needs to be a little faster. A little extra health just helps against sneak attacks; Sniper will still be more effective when set up correctly (i.e. from a distance).

Heavy shouldn't have to have a GRU to go at a usable speed. As long as he's slower than average, he's balanced. I'd personally buff him up to Soldier speed. That should fix things up.

Also, damage spread is too wide in general. Reducing it helps out Heavy tremendously, but it also makes him more vulnerable to the flanking classes.

[Giggidy]

In response to Giggidy: ideally, you'd have a game that is balanced at both the competitive level and the casual level. TF2 is pretty balanced at the casual level, but suffers serious balance problems at competitive. Anywhere in between is also unbalanced, but to a lesser degree.

I usually play on small servers, no bigger than 9v9. Once you get to 12v12, balance just doesn't matter, much like how Super Smash Bros is only "balanced" when playing with items. Yes, 12v12 is what the game was originally designed for, but they could have made the system more robust for smaller server sizes.

1. In TF2, you can switch what class you're playing/what items you're using at any time, with the only cost being going back to spawn. Sometimes this cost is significant, but the ability to switch what class you're playing in the middle of the game makes things very, very different from an SSBB match where, once you pick your character, you're stuck with it till the end of the match.

2. Because of this, PvP balance isn't required in TF2. It doesn't really matter all that much if, for example, a lone Pyro will lose on average to a lone Scout of equal skill.


Let's not forget that the key metric of a multiplayer game, the only one that matters, is that things stay interesting as you move up the skill ladder. Metaknight being strictly better than everyone else in SSBB is a serious problem because this means every battle at high-level play is Metaknight vs. Metaknight. This sucks a good deal of interestingness out of the game.

The critical question is, is competitive-level TF2 still interesting? I think it is, or people wouldn't still be playing it 5 years down the road. The questions we should be asking is "How can we make TF2 more interesting?" Not just the short-term "oohs" and "aahs" the recent unlocks grant, but long-term interestingness that works on a deep level. It's a question I don't think Valve's put very much thought into ever since the Sniper vs. Spy update.