899 replies to this topic

[C-Dawg]

<p>I'm still hemming and hawing about exactly what to do with the charged up versions of each Zodiac Weapon. &nbsp;The Bubble works great, and it should be reasonably simple for me to make a script that allows it to float in water. &nbsp;If somewhat tedious to set up in each screen.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>What I'm having more difficultly with is the rest. &nbsp;A few of the charged up attacks can just be more powerful versions of the normal weapon, but I'd kind of like most of them to have some kind of utility or uniqueness. &nbsp;I also like the concept of engineering them so they are tactically good against a specific Zodiac Boss. &nbsp;So they don't just &quot;do more damage hurr hurr&quot; but give you a specific counter to the next boss. &nbsp;This lets me crank up the difficulty dial on the bosses.</p>
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<p>I'm also toying with the idea of making your charge-up require energy. &nbsp;That seems logical, and forces the player to make more hard choices about how much dashing they want to do.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>So here's my thoughts so far:</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Aquarius Bubble</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
<p>Charges to create a bubble around the player that absorbs the next hit you take. &nbsp;Also will make it so you can float in watery areas with the bubble activated. &nbsp;Bubble only lasts for one screen, so you cannot use it to sequence break in Pisces, but it should be a very viable option to make Capricorn less infuriating. &nbsp;Scorpio's boss will be redesigned so that the sting attack is a massive single blow that is almost impossible to avoid, making the bubble a very powerful counter.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Scorpio Sting</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>This might be a good candidate for some kind of simple, powered-up version of the regular shot. &nbsp; Perhaps it fires a single bullet that moves slowly away from the player in a circular pattern around a moving point, and causes persistent damage over time? &nbsp;There's a weapon in TGL that does this, but I forget what it's called. &nbsp;I can script it so that it displays as a larger bullet and has a wider area of effect. &nbsp;This kind of effect also makes it pretty easy to make two tiers of charging to get stronger.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>If I go that route, I think I'd code the Pisces boss to allow the charged up Sting to have the same effect as getting hit by one of the missiles from the sides.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Aries Saber</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
<div>I think I should redesign the Saber from the ground up anyway. &nbsp;I've never been totally happy with the purple &quot;schwing&quot; animation I have now. &nbsp;I want it to be more like Strider's attack from the arcade game. &nbsp;The coolest charge-up would be a rising slash of some kind, but this would have to be very, very carefully implemented or it might allow sequence breaking in areas where you otherwise need double-jump. &nbsp; Alternatively, I could have some kind of short range multiple slash thing, like the Crissagream attack from SOTN. &nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>As far as weaknesses goes, I guess it would be proper to use this weapon against Cancer. &nbsp;Perhaps the charged up attack, whatever it is, can catch the eyeball parts and prevent them from closing while taking damage.</div>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Pisces Spread</div>
<div>
<p>---------------------</p>
<p>A charged up spread could be a seeker weapon of some kind, probably ones that look like robotic fish and explode on impact. &nbsp;This is kind of tricky to do. &nbsp;I guess I'd have to check which enemies are on the screen when you fire, find the closest 3, and then set up the bullet combos to seek them out. &nbsp;This could work well against the Gemini boss, if I redesign him to spend a lot of time hiding down on the bottom attacking your doppleganger. &nbsp;Perhaps they could knock him back out.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<p>Gemini Beam</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
<p>I like the idea of using a &quot;copy image&quot; thing here. &nbsp;A duplicate player is spawned that fires Gemini Beams ahead in place. &nbsp;Aries can be redesigned to use a more powerful seeking attack, so that the copy image gives you a powerful counter. &nbsp;Making ALL of the seeker weapons in the game go after your copy would be ... time consuming... but possible, ultimately. &nbsp;Maybe thats the way to go?</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<p>Leo Laser</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
<p>This thing is already so powerful that it should have a utility effect, not a damage effect, when charged. &nbsp;And it should be one that is useful against the Capricorn Brain. &nbsp;Of course, the Laser is already an amazing weapon against the Brain. &nbsp;Maybe the charged up version can act like a bullet eraser, wiping out all enemy projectiles on the screen at the time? &nbsp;That would help...</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<p>Libra Crystal</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
</div>
<p>By the time you can get to Libra's boss, do you have wall-cling? I forget, but I think so. &nbsp;Would it be too much of a sequence break to allow Libra's charged up ability to actually spawn a little ice platform to jump on? &nbsp;Kind of like an Item-1 that doesn't move? &nbsp;I should look into that. &nbsp;If it works, then this would be a cool thing to do, and I could resign the Taurus boss to make this a good idea. &nbsp;Perhaps his totally lame current attacks are replaced with attacks that spray fire along the ground and walls, making mid-air on a platform the only safe place to be?</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<p>Taurus Flame</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
<p>I need to tweak how the flames react when firing straight up and down. &nbsp;Other than that, this weapon is probably okay. &nbsp;A charged up version could be a big, slow-moving fireball just like the fireball weapon from TGL; slow moving, large, persistent damage over time. &nbsp;I wonder how much work it would be for me to redesign Libra so that certain types of ice blocks could all be melted a charged up flame attack?</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Virgo could be me made vulnerable to this in kind of a dumb way; have it catch on fire if it's hit so that it continues to take damage regardless of which eyeball is open. That boss needs its sprites redrawn anyway, they're kind of ugly. &nbsp;Or, maybe being on fire causes all of the targets to open at the same time? &nbsp;That could work. &nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<p>Virgo Whip</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
</div>
<p>We already have an Indiana-Jones style grapple, so that's no good for this. &nbsp;Assuming I do something like what I'm suggesting for the other items, we also already have lots of pure damage-enhancing effects, so I don't want that. &nbsp;What kind of plant-themed utility could I use? &nbsp;Healing? &nbsp;How about this: when the Whip is charged to maximum, it keeps consuming energy but assembles a leaf shield around you that causes incoming damage to also fill your energy? &nbsp;Or Missiles? &nbsp;The missile idea certainly makes the Whip unique and useful in the end game. &nbsp;I kind of like that. &nbsp; Making it reliant on continuing to charge rather than just setting it like the Bubble would prevent abuse.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Could Leo be vulnerable to this? &nbsp;Maybe not the shield, exactly, but maybe the whip knocks the Leo Mutant back and spins him around so he's unable to attack quickly,</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<p>Capricorn Wave</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
</div>
<p>So, here's where we would wrap around and have something that is powerful against Aquarius. &nbsp;Maybe this one is just a screen-wide damage effect that will nail lower-tier enemies and do lots of damage to the Aquarius boss? &nbsp;Seems lazy, but Im not sure what else to do with this one...</p>
</div>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
<p>Cancer.... Splatter?</p>
<p>---------------------</p>
<p>If all the other weapons charge up, then Cancer has to have a new gimmick. &nbsp;Maybe it can be a splitter? &nbsp;That makes sense. &nbsp;It fires a single bolt that goes out, maybe in a downward arc, and then splits into multiple shots when it hits a solid combo or an enemy? &nbsp;Can look like a big ol' chunk of flesh that splatters when it hits. &nbsp;Charging it up would then let you fire larger shots that split into more mini shots on impact.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Could make the Libra boss weak against this kind of attack by tweaking how he gets damaged. &nbsp;He's too easy right now anyway. &nbsp;In keeping with the Golbez theme I was using, perhaps each time he spawns he has 4 crystals around him that each have to be destroyed quickly in order to damage him before he disappears again? &nbsp;That way, the spread would let you quickly nail his defenses. &nbsp;They'd have to be resistant to the Super Bombs, though, or else that would be easier.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>EDIT - Okay, I implemented the Scorpio sting charge attack and made it cost energy. &nbsp;I think this works pretty well. &nbsp;A charged shot deals large amounts of damage, but it also consumes 40 energy to charge. &nbsp;This seems like a fair trade-off to me, and puts more tension on the energy meter. &nbsp;Do you want to tangle with a boss using maximum mobility and missiles? &nbsp;Or do you want to hit them with charged shots?</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>I think these changes make the Zodiac weapons WAY more interesting.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>EDIT - Aries Saber charged shot implemented.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>EDIT - Pisces is proving... a little more challenging. &nbsp;The seeker missiles are basically working correctly, but they won't lock on to boss target points for some reason. &nbsp;Hrm. &nbsp;Ghost-type enemies treated differently somehow...?</p>

Edited by C-Dawg, 21 February 2015 - 02:23 AM.

[newstarshipsmell]

Taurus 58: This boss is frequently spitting his flames out of the upper-left corner of the room, instead of his mouth. He also, like the first version, has a neck sprite that doesn't explode during the boss death explosion. He's also really easy now - last time I fought him, he presented a moderate challenge (I think he shot fireballs more frequently - perhaps the sidearm enhancement since then is letting me kill all his fireballs as they spawn, rather than only some and letting the rest spread out and get to me.) This time I just kept double-jumping and shooting from just right of the left column, and none of his flames or fireballs ever came near me, the constant knockback from my sidearm pinned him to the right, and it was a tedious fight. Just an Energy upgrade, so no need to make him super-hard, but maybe a little harder, or at least less life so it doesn't take as long. Damage-overhaul for this boss will probably just make him take longer to kill without any other modifications.

Cancer 15: Outside door autowarps/doesn't require up. Inside cave door requires up.

Cancer 5C: The hole down to 6C is too high to jump back up from 6C into 5C, without exploiting the 2nd walljump bug (or using WCB/AGD/IJBs.)

Cancer 7A: The hole into this room is just high enough that you need to time your double-jump at the very top of your jump to reach the ledge in 6A and get back out. Since your sprite is behind the graphics, it's difficult to see when you're at the top of the jump, forcing you to do it over and over until you get it right. It might trick some players into thinking they're stuck if they don't persist. Suggest moving this combo here:


Cancer 78: You can dash/jump/double-jump from the top row or step just below it to the right and reach the ledge in 68 above, bypassing the intestine route below you. Probably intentional or unimportant; just reporting in case. Can't believe I didn't notice this shortcut earlier, heh...

Woohoo! Back in Libra, my favorite level.

Rapidfire: Much better now. However, it has a couple bugs, not sure if you can fix easily. If you depress the button while scrolling the room, you won't begin firing when you enter the room, and have to release/depress it again to begin firing. Also, it continues generating the firing sound during room scrolls, if you're holding it down before you scroll the room, though you don't see any shots fired during room scrolls of course.

Libra 78: The hole from 68 above also requires exploiting the 2nd walljump bug to re-ascend after coming down this way, with just the double-jump boots. If you make the block above/right of the door destructible, that would resolve it.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 21 February 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[C-Dawg]

Whoa, my prior post got all kinds of jacked up.

 

Anyway, Gemini's copy vision charged shot is working great.  Pisces is still not working, but I'll revisit that.  Next, on to Cancer!

[newstarshipsmell]

Whoa, my prior post got all kinds of jacked up.

Anyway, Gemini's copy vision charged shot is working great. Pisces is still not working, but I'll revisit that. Next, on to Cancer!

That only seems to happen to me when I've left the page open in a tab for a while, possibly when I've clicked the Edit button and left it in editing mode. I've gotten tired of having to fix those posts, so I just keep a copy of my last post saved in a text file and edit that first, then reload the tab and edit/copy/paste/save. Except for the times I forget to do that, and then it ends up messing up another post I edit, lol, and I have to manually fix it.

Really looking forward to the Zodiac Weapon upgrades. You know I was frustrated with how ornamental they were to begin with, so I'm thrilled to see them get overhauled and better integrated into the game.

Zodiac Changer: Would you consider switching this item from a tool to a body item? It's kind of annoying to have to load it as an item and press it over and over to cycle through the weapons, especially in the middle of a fight. It would work far better if you could simply load the subscreen to switch weapons - can you recode the subscreen so that possession of the Zodiac Changer remaps L/R to cycle the Zodiac Weapon slot backwards/forwards through the weapons, without affecting the selection cursor? (But immediately swapping the Zodiac Weapon in use, if assigned to either A or B.) Or could you recode the cursor behavior so that landing it on the Zodiac Weapon and pressing up/down cycles through them, instead of moving the cursor? (Obviously, this latter behavior would have to be suppressed in the corridors, to avoid preventing the player from selecting the cannon.)

Wall Jump Bugs:
So, I know you keep putting fixing the ceiling-cling bug in your to-do list, but what were your intentions with dealing with the walljumping bugs? And what should I continue reporting regarding problems with them?

For clarity, I've been recently distinguishing the walljump bugs as:
#1: The bug where you rapidly rise along the wall when you jump up into a bottom corner precisely - the one which you were aware of and chose to keep and level-design with it in mind.
#2: The bug where you can jump off the wall while partially inside it, by either falling into it from the top or working your way back into it after using #1 to rise to a room top and scrolling up. If I understand you correctly, you weren't aware of the second bug while designing the levels, hence the various exploits that have been discovered with it.

Obviously #2 is pretty terrible and should be fixed... if it's possible to do so without adversely affecting the collision detection, and ruining a bunch of other tight jumps you must make that require you jumping through the edges/corners of blocks. If you cannot fix it, then the best you can do is identify where it can be exploited to seriously sequence-break, and redesign those rooms to prevent it, if possible.

I believe that once you acquire the Wall Cling Boots, you can't actually use them while partially inside a wall, so you must move out and back against it to latch on. So maybe you could recode it to detect when you're inside a wall, and then push you out quickly and exactly to the edge (so that you're aligned on the column.) This would prevent the WCBs failing to latch on, and also eliminate WJB#2 (unless you maybe timed it as soon as you first entered the wall, before it pushes you out - but that would only happen at a) the bottom row of a wall you've just scrolled up into, or b) a top corner you've just fallen into - neither of which would give you any benefit I could imagine.)

But as far as the first bug... do you expect players to master it, in order to avoid becoming otherwise stuck? Or are the various spots I've found (and frequently overlooked, without considering reporting them as bugs) where you must exploit #1 to backtrack - or end up stuck - rooms that you would want to fix so the player is not required to exploit it? (Letting players use it to gain powerups earlier than they could otherwise seems okay; causing players unaware of it to think they've become stuck and F6 seems not okay.)

If the latter, then I'll point them all out, but I'd rather not waste time posting them if you simply expect players to learn how to exploit it. The ones that require #2, though, I'd imagine you definitely want reported? So for example...

Libra 74/64: In 74, on the right side, the only way to reach the platform above from the floor is by exploiting WJB#1. And it's super-annoying, too, since you have to jump and move left/right to line yourself up without sliding on the ice, and the corner you're aiming for is just barely in reach. Without exploiting it, you'd become stuck in this area and forced to F6, if all you have is the HJ/DJBs. Easiest fix I see for that is removing some blocks above the little ledge underneath it so you can jump up there to the top of the higher ledge (or make them destructible or hidden walkable.) Once you reach the higher platform, you must then exploit #1 and scroll up, then exploit #2 to walljump upwards to backtrack out of there. Perhaps you could place a hook above in 64 so you can grapple up there?

Also, the two destructible blocks in 64 - they do not explode when shot with explosive missiles from below. You must jump up and shoot them (or use bombs) right underneath them to destroy them. I'm guessing you fooled with the code again since last time, since this was working before - but I hadn't noticed this earlier in the game on this demo, so I don't know what's going on here. Is this the case with all destructible blocks shot from below, or just these ones? I can't recall if I've actually had to shoot any blocks above me before this point in the quest, and thus whether or not I should have noticed it earlier. ETA: Also, can you make them permanently-destroyed? Otherwise it's really easy to fall back down into the top block.

Libra 55: This room also requires WJB#1 to backtrack out of to the left, ascending the ice pillar on the left side. (Another good place for a hook above?)

Libra 34: Outside door autowarps/doesn't require up. Inside cave door requires up. Also, purchasing the item causes the ice blocks on the floor to disappear, permanently.

Libra 20: The gap between the two pillars on the right does not light up when the aliens freeze.

Libra 32: The ice blocks along the secret path are not slippery.

Libra 31: The ice blocks along the secret path are not slippery. Also, the door has a solid top, and the two purple blocks underneath it are slippery (so are the ice blocks next to them, as they should be.)

Libra 30: These ice blocks are not slippery either. Also, the warp-shooting enemies stay dead/do not respawn when you return to this room. They respawn in all the other rooms... ?

Libra 24: The hidden path requires WJB#1 to backtrack out of.

Libra 2D: Outside door has a solid top.

Libra 2E: The gap between the center pillar and the block below it does not flash when the enemies freeze.

Libra 0F: Floor is slippery, but platforms and ledge on right wall aren't.

Sidearm powerups: Not really sure I understand how these are working. How exactly are they supposed to affect the sidearm, now? I can see that the Energy upgrades make my shots larger - I thought the Power upgrades would do that - though I can't really tell if they're making the shots any more damaging. The Speed upgrades didn't really seem to do anything. And now that I have the Rapidfire, it seems like my Power upgrades are increasing the rate of fire and bullet speed? Not sure.

Taurus 2C: Fireball enemy is stationary.

Ice Beam: is far better now!

Taurus 1C/1D: I'd suggest ditching the non-fliers in here and replacing them with fliers - with only two fliers on each screen, it's really tedious waiting around for them to fly into a position you can freeze them in to proceed.

Explosive Missiles: Fired upwards, they will only destroy destructible blocks within two tiles distance from the Guardian. Tested it out on the pile of bomb blocks in front of Aries entrance:

I shot upwards, and destroyed the block directly above me, as well as the block above that one - the block above it did not explode when I shot it.

Taurus 08: After defeating Iron, the message displayed is wrong (displays one string from some terminal message about freezing the fliers.)

Taurus 09: I like this new boss! Alas, I was watching his lifemeter while I attacked him, and he definitely died early, with half a meter left to spare.

Gemini 06: Defeating the boss does an expanding-circle warp back to the labyrinth room instead of the typical instantaneous warp.

Leo 33: Suggest moving the cave exit warp to the right side of the door, so you don't fall through the destroyed blocks when you exit it.

Leo 46: Unless I'm missing something, this Missile Upgrade is impossible to reach. Can you destroy the energy draining machines with some weapon?

Leo 68/69: These two rooms have enemies that look like missiles, that just spawn and fall off the bottom of the screen.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 21 February 2015 - 06:38 PM.

[C-Dawg]

Cancer Splatter is done, charge mode is functional.  This completes the "front tier" of weapons (the ones connected to Aquarius).  Still to do, the back tier: Libra, Leo, Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn.

 

I think I'll stop on the Weapon upgrades now, and turn my attention to your bug reports from the last few days.  I'll update the quest file tonight so you can see what I've been doing with the weapons. 

 

EDIT:

 

Working my way backwards through bugs, fixing em.  If I don't mention them, I fixed it.

 

Questions:

 

Boss issues:

Vector defense dying with health remaining - it's not obvious why this is happening.

Pheagon and its rematch in Taurus are (a) lame and (b) have bad death animations.

 

Sidearm: Speed initially starts faster, but each upgrade only tics the speed up 1/4 of what it used to.  So you need to collect 25 speed to max it out.  As far as secret secondary effects:

 

1. Power only makes it stronger.  Visually, it also makes the projectile larger.

2. Every 5 Efficiency you pick up lets you fire an additional bullet.  What you're seeing is not the bullet getting larger, but more of them.

3. Speed also spaces out your bullets in a wider spread.

 

Wall Cling: I have located and destroyed the wall-cling bug.  Now, it remains to be seen whether this is actually an improvement or not.

 

Changer: I cannot run code on the subscreen.  I'd have to code up an entirely custom subscreen if I wanted to do that.  It's not impossible by any means, but it's a ton of work.

 

"Leo 5,8: After you blow up the computer, wasn't there a cutscene here that had the commander and Iron going to the Engine?"

 

Yes, and still should be.  Is this not working for you?

Edited by C-Dawg, 21 February 2015 - 08:32 PM.

[newstarshipsmell]

It would make more sense if the Aries Saber moved with you, mid-jump, like the Virgo Whip does, rather than having the "sword" drop behind you as it currently does.
 

"Leo 5,8: After you blow up the computer, wasn't there a cutscene here that had the commander and Iron going to the Engine?"

Yes, and still should be. Is this not working for you?

I don't remember seeing it on this playthrough - but I might not have been paying attention, which is dumb, since I meant to look out for/confirm it after reading his post. But I seem to remember just seeing enemies in that room without any cutscene.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 22 February 2015 - 01:17 AM.

[Solairflaire]

The cutscene in Leo never played. I didn't notice till I had made it past that section. I went back to see if I had somehow missed the trigger but couldn't get it to play. Aside from it being neat, I don't think it ever actually tells you anything mission critical other than the Engine is in Taurus, but the player won't know where that is since they haven't encountered any reference to it yet, iirc.

 

I did get Iron to join me after beating corridors, but I still had one or two left to beat when he did. I know I still needed to do Aquarius 7,F and I think there was one in Cancer I hadn't done at that point (I forgot to check before saving on the Pandora).

 

About the final boss. Could you make it so that his hitbox doesn't appear during his teleport animations? It's just not fair at all to take completely random unavoidable large amounts of damage. Otherwise, I don't see the fight being possible without at least the infinite jump boots.

 

Are you supposed to be able to actually swing while using the grapple beam? I can only get it pull me to where it is connected.

 

About the Zodiac Weapons:

I like the idea of them having more uses than they do now. And yes, if you make any of them have some sort of extra movement mode, it will get abused to sequence break stuff. Technically, I think I could get Libra's Zodiac Weapon with just the Double Jump Boots, but it would be hard as heck to get the right position because of those spikes. I'm sure most people wouldn't bother trying.

 

One thing you might want to consider is giving a weapon a primary stat that boosts damage but also giving a secondary stat that increases damage by half the value of that stat. Like the Scorpio Wave could be Power + Speed/2. I think it would also make balancing the damage of the weapons easier.

 

The Virgo Whip doesn't seem very useful to me since the rapid attack part seems to only work if you hit an enemy within Link's normal sword range. Otherwise, the whip only actually connects when the whip is retracted for me. I think it would just be more useful if it acted like the Belmont whip and struck once when swung but with the added effect of draining say 1/2 your sidearm energy level. I don't know, high speed didn't seem to make it better than other options to me.

 

Aries Sabre Charge: This could actually be something as simple as throwing the sword giving it a range option. Or giving a temporary defense boost that drains energy for a short time so there's less risk with being in melee. This weapon also gets completely outclassed by the Leo Laser by the time you can get it since the Leo Laser multiplies your Power and the Sabre only adds a small amount to it.

 

Capricorn Wave Charge: Could you do Time Stop? For some reason I remember Capricorn being closely associated with Saturn who had time as one of his domains.

 

Cancer Charge Attack: I don't know how easy this would be to do. Would you be willing to give the Guardian a scorpion tail that auto attacks nearby enemies at the cost of draining energy?

 

I could also swear that there was some order to how the Zodiac Signs went that could determine a weakness order, if you wanted to do some research.

[newstarshipsmell]

With the new demo (437) it's really easy to land from a jump slightly inside a wall, and then jumping does nothing - you just stand there while the jump sound plays. I wasn't even trying to mess with anything, and ended up landing on the rocks next to the ledge on the right side of Aquarius 19. Pressed jump and nothing happened, so I moved left a little and jumped up onto the ledge. Took me a second to work out what'd happened. This will probably get really annoying throughout the game, since it happens so easily and unintentionally, if it isn't fixed.

Even worse is that single tile-wide gaps you try to jump upwards into now require pixel precision. If the gap has a solid wall next to it on the level you're jumping from, no problem - you'll align on the column simply by walking up against it. If you don't have that... well, in Aquarius 7D trying to hop up onto the green half-tile platforms requires perfect alignment, or a diagonal jump left-to-right to squeeze between them. I imagine making jumps into gaps where the solid tiles are on the same row, without a wall on one side below, are going to become pure hell.

This was why I suggested (if possible to do so) some sort of inside-wall-check that simply reacts by pushing you completely, and exactly, out of the wall, rather than changing the collision detection to prevent you from entering it in the first place - so it wouldn't totally screw up a bunch of the expected and desirable behavior just to fix the exploitable bugs. Can you do something like that instead? Or modify the changes you've made so the player doesn't get stuck like this?
 

I could also swear that there was some order to how the Zodiac Signs went that could determine a weakness order, if you wanted to do some research.

There are various methods of calculating the length of an astrological age. In sun-sign astrology, the first sign is Aries, followed by Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces, whereupon the cycle returns to Aries and through the zodiacal signs again. Astrological ages, however, proceed in the opposite direction ("retrograde" in astronomy). Therefore, the Age of Aquarius follows the Age of Pisces.

https://en.wikipedia...Age_of_Aquarius

There's contention amongst the astrological community as to whether we're still in the Age of Pisces or have entered the Age of Aquarius. I assumed the game takes place some centuries into the future, when we've probably firmly entered the Aquarian age.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 22 February 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[C-Dawg]

Yeah, Ive been noticing that, too. You can't walk into a solid combo or jump UP into one anymore, but apparently you can sometimes fall downwards into one just enough that you can't jump up. I'm on it.

EDIT: The problem now has to do with the fact that ZClassic handles actually pulling the player downwards. I don't know exactly which points on the bottom of the sprite ZClassic looks at when deciding whether to pull the player down, and apparently ZClassic checks a narrower portion of the middle of the sprite than my jump code does. That means that it's possible for ZClassic to allow you to fall downwards closer to a block than the jump script expects. I'm just gonna keep tweaking the jump code's collision detection until it matches what ZClassic does, I guess.

EDIT2: Okay, I sauced it. For future reference (not that anyone will find it buried this deep in the thread) it looks to me like Zelda Classic checks collisions below the character sprite at X+4 to X+12.

newstarshipsmell, on 22 Feb 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:


There's contention amongst the astrological community as to whether we're still in the Age of Pisces or have entered the Age of Aquarius. I assumed the game takes place some centuries into the future, when we've probably firmly entered the Aquarian age.

Whoa, you guys are going DEEP.

EDIT3: Taurus Flame charged up version is functional. It's a slow-moving fireball, and it will destroy the icicles in Libra. This allowed me to add more secret areas accessible only with the Flame. Score!

Also, I don't think it's possible to get to Libra's boss without the Wall-Cling anymore, since you need to ascend that long shaft at the bottom of Libra and I've now disabled the cheatyface wall jump. So, let's see if you can sequence break with the Libra's charged version...

EDIT4: Virgo charge works now. It's a plant shield that doesnt reduce damage, but will recharge your missiles a little bit each time you take a hit as long as you hold down the button to keep it up. I think the difficulties in keeping the button pushed down make it safe to remove energy consumption from this weapon, but we'll see.

EDIT5: Leo is working. This one wraps you in a huge fireball and shoots you in any direction constantly until you hit a solid combo. This gives you a good replacement / alternative to the Grapple 2 / AGD in the late game. Since you need the AGD to get to the Leo Zodiac Boss, I feel like giving you this kind of capability is... safe? I dunno, I will be tasking you with trying to use these advanced techniques to break the game!

EDIT6: Capricorn is done. It's a screen-wide damage effect, but it's kinda lame. Will work on a better visual for the effect down the road. Solar: I'd love to do a time-stop type thing, but holy hell that'd be a lot of work. Like, adding code to every single custom boss and enemy, and then making a massive array function to store and freeze all enemies. I can't just mimic the "clock" item, for example.

New demo with these changes is now up. Go forth and sequence break, if you can.

EDIT7: Without the ability to wall-clip-jump, numerous early game areas become death traps. I've corrected the ones I've noticed so far in a new playthough, but feel free to report them.

Edited by C-Dawg, 22 February 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[newstarshipsmell]

EDIT5: Leo is working. This one wraps you in a huge fireball and shoots you in any direction constantly until you hit a solid combo. This gives you a good replacement / alternative to the Grapple 2 / AGD in the late game. Since you need the AGD to get to the Leo Zodiac Boss, I feel like giving you this kind of capability is... safe? I dunno, I will be tasking you with trying to use these advanced techniques to break the game!

Nice. I originally considered suggesting some late powerup that did exactly this (sans fireball) but turns you into your ship form until you crash. Does it maintain across room scrolls?

[C-Dawg]

Nice. I originally considered suggesting some late powerup that did exactly this (sans fireball) but turns you into your ship form until you crash. Does it maintain across room scrolls?

 

No.  I have some concerns with that being very abusive, since you can just blast past many areas.  It might also be frustrating, since you lose control when you hit the fireball, and running into danger you can't see seems like a bad idea. 

 

If you want to have at it, though, maybe I make it work that way on one update so you can see. 

 

 

This was why I suggested (if possible to do so) some sort of inside-wall-check that simply reacts by pushing you completely, and exactly, out of the wall, rather than changing the collision detection to prevent you from entering it in the first place - so it wouldn't totally screw up a bunch of the expected and desirable behavior just to fix the exploitable bugs. Can you do something like that instead? Or modify the changes you've made so the player doesn't get stuck like this?

 

 

I've been playing through the latest upload to check for this, and I'm not experiencing the same problem.  I wonder if it's just a touch thing?  I'll try to pay attention as I keep going to see if I find this frustrating or not.  It probably becomes a much bigger deal when you're double-jumping or other wise not able to line up on the ground easily.  I've only gone up through Cancer and the Disintegration Beam so far.'

 

 

EDIT: Working on Scorpio boss. That damn scorpion tail is a huge pain in the behind... still in progress.

Edited by C-Dawg, 25 February 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[newstarshipsmell]

I've been playing through the latest upload to check for this, and I'm not experiencing the same problem.  I wonder if it's just a touch thing?  I'll try to pay attention as I keep going to see if I find this frustrating or not.  It probably becomes a much bigger deal when you're double-jumping or other wise not able to line up on the ground easily.  I've only gone up through Cancer and the Disintegration Beam so far.

Good to hear. If you're playtesting it yourself, you'll see immediately whether or not it needs further tweaking. I suggested what I did since I felt it would fix the problem without possibly interfering with other desired behavior, but obviously it's simpler to simply prevent wall-entry if it doesn't really mess anything else up (somewhat more difficult, but still possible, jumps are fine, of course.)

I haven't actually tried the newest demo, just the one prior (with the first walljump bugfix.) My primary concern was that some of the tighter jumps you make (like in the horizontal passages at the beginning of Aries, outside in Gemini, the upper-left section of Taurus, etc.) would become difficult/impossible to jump up through a hole past the end of a platform below it, due to how you now collide with the blocks. A secondary concern was being forced to line up pixel-perfect to leap upwards into 1-tile wide holes. Does it actually require your sprite to be lined up precisely on the column? Or is there a little leeway still involved? I didn't pay that close attention - just noticed that the holes are definitely tighter to jump into now, and easy to unintentionally bounce off the bottom corners of instead. Also, are you able to move single-pixel at a time? Barely tapping my D-pad, I always move 2-3 pixels at least, so lining up walljumps generally forced me to move back and forth a bit to get it right. If that's just my gamepad/system, then obviously that's just my problem and not everyone's, so lining up to jump now wouldn't be as annoying for others as for me.

Anyways, I haven't had a chance to play farther since my previous posts. I didn't play past the AQ room I referenced - didn't even get the missiles or pulse hammer, before I had to do other crap. Hopefully I'll have a chance to start over on the new demo this Thursday and try out some of these suped up ZWs I'm looking forward to killing things with.

[Solairflaire]

Where are the platforms in Scorpio 4,6 so one can get out after getting the explosives?

[C-Dawg]

They're gone! I moved stuff around to fix a bug and neglected to put in a replacement. I fixed it, but that version has not been uploaded yet.

 

 

I haven't actually tried the newest demo, just the one prior (with the first walljump bugfix.) My primary concern was that some of the tighter jumps you make (like in the horizontal passages at the beginning of Aries, outside in Gemini, the upper-left section of Taurus, etc.) would become difficult/impossible to jump up through a hole past the end of a platform below it, due to how you now collide with the blocks. A secondary concern was being forced to line up pixel-perfect to leap upwards into 1-tile wide holes. Does it actually require your sprite to be lined up precisely on the column? Or is there a little leeway still involved?

 

 

I wasn't looking for this precisely when I started playing through again, but I don't think it's quite that difficult.  It doesn't feel that way.  To understand why, you need to know a little bit about the collision functions.

 

So, each sprite in ZClassic (or any 2-d game, really) takes up space.  It's not a single point on the screen.  In ZClassic, each sprite is normally 16x16.  The sprite's location is specified by the X, Y coordinates of the upper-left-hand-corner of the sprite. So if I put a sprite at 100,100, then it will  take up space from 100, 100 to 116, 116 on the screen.  

 

When you're checking collisions, you need to make a decision about what locations on the side of the sprite to check.  You check by specific X, Y coordinates.  So, you could ask the engine to check every point along the 16 pixels on the edge, and see if any of them abut a solid combo, and if so, prevent movement in that direction.  But that's more work than you have to do, because the game doesn't have holes only 1 pixel wide anyway.  8 pixels is the largest any opening is going to be.  So all you need to do is check the border of the sprite at two or three points.   In my current builds, the game checks for collisions with walls while you're falling or jumping at coordinates X+4, X+8, and X+12.  That's a little bit inside the sprite, the very middle of the sprite, and a little bit before the other side of the sprite. Essentially, the "solid" portion of the Guardian is just the middle half, 8 pixels wide. 

 

This means that you should have 4 pixels of leeway when you are jumping or falling through a narrow opening.  The opening is 16 pixels wide, and your collision detection is only looking for a space 8 pixels wide.  You should have lots of room to fudge this.

 

What was happening before was a disconnect between collision detection when going up and down versus where the engine looks to determine if you are on solid ground.  I was basically letting the player get too close to solid blocks while travelling vertically.  That's fixed now, and it feels fine to me.

 

EDIT: Updated file.  Scorpio might have balance issues, particularly at very low levels of Sidearm upgrade, but he's functional.  Also fixed those early game death traps I found.

Edited by C-Dawg, 26 February 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[ShadowTiger]

I'll keep this post up to date with my findings from the demo from 2/25/15.

1. Strings 1 and 2 still have a sound effect.

2. Boss from 1:7A is missing a neck segment.
3. Boss from 1:7A's health meter disappears one hit before it dies.

Any chance those blocks that form steps that appear after a boss dies could appear faster? It's a little unsettling to watch them come into form so very, very slowly. It has a very "unfinished" feel to it.

4. Aquarius 54. Not a bug in the slightest, but the boss's second phase is far, far too easy. I didn't take a single point of damage. I just held up the whole time while pressing left and right occasionally. Maybe make rocks fall or something. The first phase is dozens of times harder than the second phase.