899 replies to this topic

[Solairflaire]

Some more later game bugs, since I decided I wanted to finish as much as I could on the 1/25 build (sorry, I don't know the actual numbers). I didn't update it since I wasn't sure how the game would react to having a new inventory and a stunner that also wanted to freeze when that function was removed from it.

 

Aries 3,E: Enemies in the secret part of the room disappear after about a second and leave behind invisible shooters.

Aries Warp Room: It puts you on the left side and you can't get into the area from that side.

In the Warp Zone: The screen above Aquarius (the Pisces Warp I think) prevents you from using anything other than the directional buttons.

Libra 5,C Inside Terminal Room: Just below the door is a block you can destroy and you can scroll the screen to the Capricorn Zodiac Boss.

Libra 1,A: Leaving Shop puts you in upper left corner.

Libra 7,B: The boss crashed ZC whenever I killed it with a Super Missile. Other methods of killing it didn't do that. I crashed it 3 times just to be sure.

Aquarius 0,7 Corridor: Continuing in the corridor puts you at the final screen of the Leo 5,F corridor and puts you out over there.

Virgo 7,F: Door goes to blank room and you're put on top of spikes when you exit.

Virgo 7,B: The room locks you in and killing the enemies won't let you out. I couldn't figure out another way to open the "bubbles" there so the switch on the other side is inaccessible (yes I looked up what was in the next room).

Virgo 3,F: Item is a key, also it can't be acquired.

 

So, the lvl 2 Dash Boots are really nifty, but they have a flaw. You can't go through 1 wide walls if the other side is off the ground and only 1 tile high. I'm fairly certain that the wall cling boots are taking priority here. If you need a picture, just look at Virgo 3,F. You can't get into the maze to acquire the item there.

 

I do like Starships' ideas for the Scorpio boss, but I fear what the rematch fight will be like with those spike pits in the room if those ideas are implemented.

 

I think you might need to redesign the Aries 3,C Corridor boss. For one, he has way too much regen. Second, his attacks blocking all of your attacks except the Laser is really unfair. This is only boss I've died more than 10 times at. I kept count after dying a bunch and the count ended up at 73 times. It's possible I died more than 100 times. Healing yourself against the boss is irrelevant since it's a damage race at the end. It's not too hard to knock him down to the final phase, but then he teleports too quickly and it's not possible to damage him enough with the lvl 3 super laser to kill him before running out. As I said, the other weapons can't hit him since his shots block them. I can't find the lvl 4 laser at all, is it actually in the game? I did eventually beat him out of sheer luck when he teleported next to me when he was at mostly dead and I lasered and super missiled him to death. But, that was sheer luck. I think this is the only boss I've encountered that I feel is completely unfair.

 

One thing that would be nice is if bosses cleared their room after they started dying so that their parting shots can't kill you. At least in the shooter levels. There have been several times where I couldn't see because of the explosion and something hits me and I died forcing me to do it all over again.

 

Edit: The boss of Corridor Virgo 0,F also has you start on the top left corner and you can scroll the screen left.

Edited by Solairflaire, 02 February 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[newstarshipsmell]

C-Dawg, I know I previously reported several of the bugs Solairflaire just reported - and I've found several bugs still in recent versions that I reported early on and didn't get fixed (yet.) Maybe it would be easier to track them all and ensure you fix all of them, and we don't waste your time double-posting them or reporting fixed bugs, if you created a google word doc or something we can all edit, in order to list them all? Group all the room bugs by area, and sort them alphanumerically by coordinates, and maybe put all the other bugs (items working incorrectly, general problems, etc.) at the end? We could add new bugs with [NEW demo#] in front of them, and you could edit them to [FIXED demo#] when you fix them (and just put FIXED in front of all the ones you've already fixed up until now, if you didn't waste time documenting which demo versions you fixed them all in.) Then we could check that doc before adding a new bug, and avoid reporting something already reported and/or fixed. (This would also remove all the bug reports from this thread, and let it focus on more general feedback and suggestions.)

ETA: If that sounds time-consuming to you, well... If you set up the document, I can go through the thread and add all the existing bug reports, and mark off the ones I know you've fixed, and you can go through afterwards and mark off the rest you've fixed. If editing a google doc (or some other external online document) is a hassle for the other playtesters, they can just report their bugs in here as before (hopefully checking the doc beforehand, at least) and I'm willing to add them to the doc as they're posted. I'm pretty much camped out on this thread all day long every day. I have google docs installed - I'm just not sure how to set up a new document and assign editing privileges and whatnot.
 

Virgo 7,B: The room locks you in and killing the enemies won't let you out. I couldn't figure out another way to open the "bubbles" there so the switch on the other side is inaccessible (yes I looked up what was in the next room).

That switch also erroneously reports that it triggers something in room 6C - in reality, it opens the gate at 72. The item at the end of that route is also guarded by a room like 7B, where clearing the screen doesn't open the exits back and to the item room past it. Without that item, you may not be able to obtain the final armor (newer versions require this item to reach it, older versions didn't) and most of the final area (including the Zodiac Changer) will remain inaccessible, so you'll want to noclip through and pick it up, if you want to complete everything you can on the version you're presently playing, before starting over on a new version.

/bug reports

Aquarius 79: You can Dash2 into the space on the right border and scroll into the left wall in 7A. There may be a handful of other rooms like this (where you left an opening on the border, enclosed by combos only a tile wide and thus passable with Dash 2) but I'm not seeing any glancing at the maps. I'll look more closely later and let you know if I find any more.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 02 February 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Avaro]

 

=========== CONFIGURATION ==============

The game expects your buttons to be laid out this way:

A  B
L  R

A and B are used for your items, as normal.

 

Dude, it looks like you've mixed up the A and B buttons. A always comes after B in ZC.

I'm now going to try the demo.

 

Edit: Loving it! However, it's nothing like what I expected at all. Based on the thread and the screenshots I expected a sideview platforming quest and what do I get to play? A space shooter xD

I guess this game changes between space shooter and sideview adventure? Interesting concept. Any tips on how I could beat the first level?

Edited by Avataro, 02 February 2015 - 03:31 PM.

[C-Dawg]

I think the only tip is to make sure you know how to use your "L" cannon in a crisis situation and try to keep grabbing the energy drops so you don't run out.  Other than that, I don't know what to say except practice

[newstarshipsmell]

Edit: Loving it! However, it's nothing like what I expected at all. Based on the thread and the screenshots I expected a sideview platforming quest and what do I get to play? A space shooter xD
I guess this game changes between space shooter and sideview adventure? Interesting concept. Any tips on how I could beat the first level?

LOL, practice it? It's not that hard... (I died multiple times before finishing the first shooter level, when I began playing this, so it's a bit hard at first, but you'll learn quickly what works and what doesn't.)

But seriously, the weapon selection stuff seems to work kind of bugily. Make sure you are using the Ship Weapon instead of the Sidearm - on the subscreen, the Ship Weapon is in the upper-left corner, at the top of a two-item box. It doesn't always seem to auto-select the ship weapon for you at the beginning of shooter levels. The Sidearm is intended for the sidescroller portions, and sucks heavily at the beginning (plus, it drains your Energy bar, which you want to conserve in the shooter levels for your Special Weapon - mapped to L.)

Hold down the button for the Ship Weapon, rather that pressing it over and over - it will repeat fire. Get as close as you can to enemies to shoot them - when you're close, you'll shoot bullets faster and damage them faster, as it limits how many bullets can display onscreen, so rapidly hitting them up close optimizing your firing frequency.

Use the L weapon when you have a bunch of enemies in front of you to maximize effectiveness, and if you're lucky, some will drop Energy refills so you can replenish it quickly.

Scroll left/right whenever the screen's empty and shoot, near the top of the screen. With luck, you can take out a number of enemies as soon as they appear.

Don't try to shoot the enemies that scroll in from the side and zoom towards you, if they are not the only enemies onscreen. Just dodge them. If there's no other enemy types, you can stay slightly to the side of them and fire while moving with them, to take a few of them out and gain drops.

If you have any energy left over when you reach the pumpkin thing, save it for the boss - don't use L. Just get close and shoot it, dodging its sprays. On the boss, don't waste time on the side targets - just shoot the big red target on the center/backside with your L weapon and bullets.

Rest assured, the vast majority of the game is awesome sidescroller platforming. The shooter levels are infrequent in comparison, though there are two dozen of them.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 02 February 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[C-Dawg]

As to the google docs notion: that's a fine idea.  Let me see what I can do tonight.  Probably I will have a three-column table set up, the first column being the location and the second being a description of the bug.  The last could be my comments or status.  We could delete them when completed.

[newstarshipsmell]

Also, one thing that's inefficient here... boss tweaks, and gaining playtesting/feedback on them. As is, when you mention them, we have to either a) play through/up to the given boss, before offering any new feedback on it, or b) cheat to give ourselves the right inventory and warp to it. That kind of puts a hurdle in the way of providing immediate feedback on changes you've made, before you move on to tweaking something else.

If instead, you could host/post a special copy of the quest file in the thread here - with the start point set to the boss's entrance, and the player inventory set to the minimum stuff you'd have upon reaching it, that would make it easier and quicker to respond to new tweaks. Additionally, you could compile a list for the bosses, and for each boss, note a range of inventories spread from the minimum inventory you'd need to reach the boss, up through the maximum inventory you could possess if you gained every item out in the open/won from clearing rooms, every item in a hidden room/cave, and every item you can wall-glitch to before obtaining an upgrade that lets you obtain it normally.

Then you'd just have to start a game, copy it 2-3 times, and upon loading each subsequent save, cheat to adjust the inventory to the next level, and save. Bundle the game save file up with the qst file, and host/post it. Then, as playtesters, all we have to do is download the boss-test quest, put it in with a copy of ZC, unpack it and overwrite the save file (or not, if it doesn't exist in a clean copy of ZC) and run the program. We'd have at least one copy we could adjust through cheating to boost the inventory if you skipped creating saves, or 3-4 saves at varying levels to pick from, so we can see how the players would hold up against them with a variety of inventories, in order to more effectively tweak bosses that are generally too easy or too hard. ETA: Er. Now that I think about this for a minute - the quest path in the save file would probably depend upon you, so at least, in order to make distributing hacked saves work, we'd either need to use an identical path to the testing copy of ZC on our machines, or be able to edit the save file to change the path to match our own, which I'm not sure if that's feasible. Thoughts?

Obviously, if you don't already have all this stuff written down somewhere, it'd be a chore to compile - I'm willing to do so, on another playthrough (note when and where I gain everything, note how I obtained it, etc.) and compile that list. The PSE sidearm and LEM upgrade selection rooms would through variables into it - I'd simply put down ±n PSE/±n LEM, and assume always choosing the Life upgrades and picking PSE to balance the sidearm for continuous fire without draining energy. It would be simple for playtesters to use the cheat menu to adjust the inventory numbers to reflect alternative choices for playtesting purposes (though some would be a waste of time - if someone picks nothing but Speed upgrades for their sidearm, they probably deserve to die a lot on the bosses.)

/bug reports

Missiles: Not sure if this is intentional, nor whether it's really problematic/needs fixing. But, I noticed the pre-Explosive missiles travel through solid combos, but also destroy bombable blocks, so you can use them to clear out destructible blocks inside walls which Explosives and Explosive Missiles cannot reach. This is particularly helpful to the player in some of those bomb-your-way-through-the-maze rooms, as you can quickly shoot missiles along every other halfrow/halfcolumn (to hit anything left/right or above/below it, blasting out two rows/columns at a time) and move over when the missile clears to the wall.

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 03 February 2015 - 12:20 AM.

[C-Dawg]

Another day, another four custom bosses.  Well, two, with two slight variations.

 

So I've uploaded a new version.  This one has Iron upgraded in all of his encounters, and has replaced the bosses guarding the Level 1 Shield and the Level 2 Jets with something significantly less fun to do battle with.  Check'em out.

 

As to your suggestion: I can't really make a custom quest file for every release on each boss.  Remember, I work at a pretty brisk pace; custom bosses get added or replaced at the rate of about 2 to 3 a week, most of the time.  Its not really feasible for me to make special versions with different starting points.  Luckily, even though the game world is big, it's all pretty compact if you're using F11 and Q to zip around.  

 

I mean, once we get to the point where no one else can find bugs, then sure, we can talk about boss-rush scripts or something.  But that's a higher grit of sandpaper that we're using now, if that makes sense.  

 

Plus, I think my current shell for custom bosses is very robust and will work fine to correct and outstanding bugs once I get it implemented throughout.  

 

Tomorrow, I will address your bugs here and then move on to work on the next bosses who sorely need makeovers, the Shield Armor and the Fan Bot.

Edited by C-Dawg, 03 February 2015 - 01:36 AM.

[Solairflaire]

How much HP are health ups supposed to give? I just got the one at Aquarius 6,9 and it gave me 4 max hp. I could've sworn that I was getting 16 when I checked before.

[C-Dawg]

I think you were getting eight before. The early tanks give you hp by script and by item type. Later, when your health gets really large, Zclassic cannot handle the lifegain, so only the script works. I kind of like this, as it makes it easier to estimate the players health in the late game.

 

But seriously, the weapon selection stuff seems to work kind of bugily. Make sure you are using the Ship Weapon instead of the Sidearm - on the subscreen, the Ship Weapon is in the upper-left corner, at the top of a two-item box. It doesn't always seem to auto-select the ship weapon for you at the beginning of shooter levels. 

 

While most of the time I can use a script to fix anything I don't like about the engine, this is not one of those times.  I have no access to write to Link's currently selected item in a script.  I could simulate this one of two ways:

 

1. Write a script that removes every item from Link except that one, waits a frame, then adds the items back.  I believe this will force the engine to select the remaining item in slot A.  This smells like it would be very buggy solution - what if you saved and quit in the middle of it?  Ugh.

 

2. Write a totally custom sub screen and inventory system, and then make every weapon totally custom too.  Ironically, the latter is the easier of the two.

 

Neither of these seems attractive to me right now. 

 

 

Missiles: Not sure if this is intentional, nor whether it's really problematic/needs fixing. But, I noticed the pre-Explosive missiles travel through solid combos, but also destroy bombable blocks, so you can use them to clear out destructible blocks inside walls which Explosives and Explosive Missiles cannot reach. This is particularly helpful to the player in some of those bomb-your-way-through-the-maze rooms, as you can quickly shoot missiles along every other halfrow/halfcolumn (to hit anything left/right or above/below it, blasting out two rows/columns at a time) and move over when the missile clears to the wall.

 

Bombable blocks?  I hope not.  You're referring just to blocks where any ol weapon will clear them out, right?  (They use the "Strike" flag.)  Those areas in Aries can be cleared with the Sidearm alone.  That isn't a bug.  If the level 1 Missiles are somehow clearing BOMBABLE blocks, that's a huge problem and would make my head explode.

Edited by C-Dawg, 03 February 2015 - 01:50 PM.

[newstarshipsmell]

While most of the time I can use a script to fix anything I don't like about the engine, this is not one of those times.  I have no access to write to Link's currently selected item in a script.  I could simulate this one of two ways:
 
1. Write a script that removes every item from Link except that one, waits a frame, then adds the items back.  I believe this will force the engine to select the remaining item in slot A.  This smells like it would be very buggy solution - what if you saved and quit in the middle of it?  Ugh.
 
2. Write a totally custom sub screen and inventory system, and then make every weapon totally custom too.  Ironically, the latter is the easier of the two.
 
Neither of these seems attractive to me right now.

Agreed. It's not that big of a deal. Honestly, just write it into the plot. In the manual. Something about a damaged circuit that shorts out during her transformation into ship mode and requires her to manually select her weapons.

Bombable blocks?  I hope not.  You're referring just to blocks where any ol weapon will clear them out, right?  (They use the "Strike" flag.)  Those areas in Aries can be cleared with the Sidearm alone.  That isn't a bug.  If the level 1 Missiles are somehow clearing BOMBABLE blocks, that's a huge problem and would make my head explode.

You're probably correct. If I've previously been dying in those goddamn mazes from fireballs because I was running around trying to bomb my way through, when I could've just used my sidearm instead, then I feel like a huge stupid asshole. Which is nothing new.
Sometimes I just assume you've made the game needlessly difficult. You know, on account of all the times you put needlessly difficult parts into it.

[C-Dawg]

Fanbot improvement complete.  It might actually be too absurdly difficult now, though.  Don't leave the grapple at home...

 

Path to the Spin Attack in Virgo now functions.  Replaced nonfunctional scripts with more copies of the Crabbor boss.  Hooray!

 

Nerfed regen rate of Cloak Wing 2.  He should be marginally more fair now.  If it's still a huge problem, I can change his spread shots so they do not block your bullets.

 

Fixed the spawning problem with enemies in Aries 3,E.  While I was there, I also tweaked the cleanup code for Corridor enemies.  I THINK that you won't see leftover enemies and sprites anymore.

 

Fixed warp zone problems reported.

 

Libra 7A boss removed until we get that far.  This is on the list of lame bosses to be make less lame as we go.

 

"Aquarius 0,7 Corridor: Continuing in the corridor puts you at the final screen of the Leo 5,F corridor and puts you out over there."  <--- the dreaded Continue Bug.  I have double checked all ways into Aquarius Corridors, and none of them are Entrances.  Nor does the relevant DMAP have "continue here" checked.  Not sure what is causing you to continue within a corridor like this...

 

Remaining bugs on this page fixed.  Uploading in a moment.

Edited by C-Dawg, 04 February 2015 - 12:06 AM.

[newstarshipsmell]

Nerfed regen rate of Cloak Wing 2.  He should be marginally more fair now.  If it's still a huge problem, I can change his spread shots so they do not block your bullets.

Fixed the spawning problem with enemies in Aries 3,E.  While I was there, I also tweaked the cleanup code for Corridor enemies.  I THINK that you won't see leftover enemies and sprites anymore.

That reminds me. Can you do bosses with differing hitboxes depending upon the item hitting them? I know you want the actual vulnerable spots to usually be small and thus not totally easy to hit, but... the consequence of that is, oftentimes you have large boss sprites that most of your explosive missiles travel clear through without exploding. Or worse, they get absorbed by enemy shots without exploding. Both of which seems kind of lame and ridiculous. If you could give them another hitbox as big as their sprite for the missiles to hit (and maybe somehow set it up so that missiles that don't hit their vulnerable, smaller hitbox deal no or minimal damage, I guess) that would look a lot better. And fix the boss bullets so they stop simply canceling your missiles out, unless they're stuff that obviously looks like it should.
I actually gave up even trying to use missiles on most bosses because they're such a pain - you end up doing more damage to yourself trying to aim at your target and crashing into things and/or firing the missile the wrong way as you try to dodge something, and then half the time they don't even hit anything or disappear... only time they come in handy at all it seems is when you can sit still at the bottom and unload on a stationary boss (the crustacean/mechanical boss while it's shooting its six-way bullet spray comes to mind.) Of course, this is uh... nothing new. Many of the weapons in TGL were equally annoying to try to use in any of the corridors for the exact same reasons, so... being a bit authentic there, lol.

Also, did you have any plans for or interest in adding background graphics to the labyrinth areas? Because I have some ideas to bounce off you if you're game - though they may not be possible since I don't know what ZC 2.5 can/cannot do.

Libra 7A boss removed until we get that far. This is on the list of lame bosses to be make less lame as we go.

The Libra 6E boss is also really lame. It seems like all he does is dive attack you, so all you end up doing is timing your jumps to get out of his way and then he's an easy target while recovering. Becomes a rather dull fight quickly. Give him some other attack modes?

Edited by newstarshipsmell, 04 February 2015 - 12:08 AM.

[C-Dawg]

The corridor scrolling backgrounds?  Given time, what I'll probably do is paint up a bunch of better-looking backgrounds and import them.  Right now they're serviceable but nothing special.  I don't plan to get crazy elaborate and have long interesting backgrounds; it's too minor a part of the game.

[newstarshipsmell]

The corridor scrolling backgrounds?  Given time, what I'll probably do is paint up a bunch of better-looking backgrounds and import them.  Right now they're serviceable but nothing special.  I don't plan to get crazy elaborate and have long interesting backgrounds; it's too minor a part of the game.

No, I meant the side-scroller areas. That, for the most part, just have empty black background everywhere there aren't foreground tiles.