1333 replies to this topic

[Tree]

I know, but I think what he's trying to say is that SS isn't (Or what we think isn't) just an overworld surrounded in mountains that could show so much more to the world on the other side but restricts you.

It seems that there is so much more to explore in this game and I really hope that that is true. Because in most Zelda games, the overworld is pretty much the same. The basic surrounded in mountains overworld that we saw mostly in Oot and TP.

[Russ]

Well while I kinda agree that it's a bit boring, not really any emotion in Oot, but it is the most ground breaking game in the Zelda franchise. It just is and it will be for a long time. It's just how people are. Lots and LOTS of people love Oot. I personally think Majora's Mask is the greatest game in the Zelda franchise. but let's face it, Ocarina of time will never be Over shadowed. It changed Zelda games forever and it was the first 3D Zelda game and people are going to remember that.

Fair enough. But still, from what you're saying, nostalgia's the only reason it's still around. People remember it being awesome, so it is. If you were to release it today graphics meeting today's standards (well, OoT 3D I guess, but imagine that's the first time it was ever released), it would seem outdated. Okay, but not up to par. Release Majora's Mask today (my favorite as well), and it could easily stand up to today's competition.

Not to mention it's the first Zelda game with a complex story instead of you start in the middle of no where and are told to save some girl you've never met.

Thought ALttP had a pretty deep story.

And let's not forget Link's Awakening. That one had a deep story too.

[Tree]

Fair enough. But still, from what you're saying, nostalgia's the only reason it's still around. People remember it being awesome, so it is. If you were to release it today graphics meeting today's standards (well, OoT 3D I guess, but imagine that's the first time it was ever released), it would seem outdated. Okay, but not up to par. Release Majora's Mask today (my favorite as well), and it could easily stand up to today's competition.
And let's not forget Link's Awakening. That one had a deep story too.

Doh, I forgot about Links awakening
But did anyone really tell you why you were doing this whole quest in Link to the Past?
I haven't played for a while, but I remember Zelda telling you to save her in the Castle. After you do, why the hell are you going to 3 dungeons? I might have just forgot some important info, but I still didn't really get as much story as I do in the newer titles.

Links awakening on the other had actually tells you why you are going from dungeon to dungeon.
To get the insturments of the Sirens and wake the Wind Fish who might make an appearance in Skyward sword. I still don't know what that giant whale thing is !

[Russ]

I haven't played for a while, but I remember Zelda telling you to save her in the Castle. After you do, why the hell are you going to 3 dungeons? I might have just forgot some important info, but I still didn't really get as much story as I do in the newer titles.

After you save her, you seek out the old man (Sahasarala? Can never spell that right). When you find him, he asks you to get the item out of the Eastern Palace before he tells you what you must do. When you bring it, he talks about the Master Sword, and explains you need to more pendants before you can wield it. So yes, you are told why you go to the dungeons. So you can get the Master Sword, so you can stop Aghimnon.

[Tree]

Well, I stand clearly corrected now...
You sure, know your Zelda

But still, that thing about OoT being ground breaking still apply's

[The Satellite]

ALttP does not hold your hand. In the slightest. It gives you hints, sometimes they're more clear than others, but they're never blatant. You go and figure out everything yourself. Sure it's like that in Z1 and Z2 but ALttP perfected that because, well, comparatively, the first two had like no hints at all. Besides those vague and poorly translated ones.

Maybe that's why I'm getting dissatisfied with Zelda games recently: They're too direct. Not much is secret nor does it challenge you to do a lot of exploring. TP was like that, almost. Hopefully SS does us a favor and makes things somewhat vague so it challenges us to think. Looks like it might do so from the trailers. I want a Zelda game where you have to figure things out for yourself again.

[Radien]

LTTP and LA are "deep?"... You guys need to play more traditional RPGs.

ALttP does not hold your hand. In the slightest. It gives you hints, sometimes they're more clear than others, but they're never blatant.

Marking the locations of the temples with icons on your map isn't blatant?...

[The Satellite]

Not really. You still have to solve puzzles that no one explains to you to figure out how to even open a dungeon half the time. Plus certain key items are required to open some that no one tells you where to find them. Sure, they tell you where they are, but never how to get into them.

And of course they're deep, they're Zelda games.

On a side note: Skyward Sword. *wanted to stay on-topic somehow*

[Sir Evan]

I'm kinda backtracking a little bit, but Skyward Sword's concept of "flight and ground exploration integration" isn't entirely new. Last year, Capcom released a game called Dark Void, which combined a third person shooter with the ability to fly around each area, from place to place. Now, granted, it's a different genre and isn't based on exploration, but the core concept is still there. I'll also admit that I haven't actually played the game, so if I'm completely wrong on the subject, sue me.

[Radien]

Not really. You still have to solve puzzles that no one explains to you to figure out how to even open a dungeon half the time. Plus certain key items are required to open some that no one tells you where to find them. Sure, they tell you where they are, but never how to get into them.

And of course they're deep, they're Zelda games.

I suppose I should say that I think it's possible to "hold the player's hand" AND make the game difficult in specific ways. This becomes more noticeable if you have recently played any of the older Zelda titles (and many of us have, here). Namely, older games don't even give you little directional pointers. Whether or not this is better, well, that's up to the individual to judge.

I'm kinda backtracking a little bit, but Skyward Sword's concept of "flight and ground exploration integration" isn't entirely new. Last year, Capcom released a game called Dark Void, which combined a third person shooter with the ability to fly around each area, from place to place. Now, granted, it's a different genre and isn't based on exploration, but the core concept is still there. I'll also admit that I haven't actually played the game, so if I'm completely wrong on the subject, sue me.

Now, I didn't play the title I'm about to mention, but I seem to remember than Panzer Dragoon Saga made a big thing of the combination-ground-and-sky exploration thing. It was about a dragon rider/knight, and I think it was an action RPG, and that sort of thing would go hand-in-hand in such a title. Given the popularity of dragon riders and sky knights within the fantasy genre, most games with that combination would give way to ground-and-sky exploration.

Of course, imagining how Zelda will do it IS exciting to those of us who have high expectations of the quality that comes with the Zelda treatment. But if we pretend for a moment that we aren't uber-fans, we must force ourselves to say "I guess we'll wait and see how it turns out."

[Nicholas Steel]

So long as it gets rid of the limited use items like Ball and Chain and the Beyblade from TP, and not replace them with similar bad ideas, I'll be happy as punch.

Yes the ball and chain is powerful but it greatly restricts your movement while using it and is both incredibly inaccurate and slow to use. Every other zelda game uses items that are fast to use if they impede movement or are of average speed while allowing you to move reasonably. Also the items have very little use outside of ghost/heart piece hunting once you've done the dungeon the item is found in.

Beyblade had tons of potential until it was found you travel extremely slowly when not on a track with it.

Edited by franpa, 10 June 2011 - 08:50 AM.

[Sheik]

So long as it gets rid of the limited use items like Ball and Chain and the Beyblade from TP, and not replace them with similar bad ideas, I'll be happy as punch.

Yes the ball and chain is powerful but it greatly restricts your movement while using it and is both incredibly inaccurate and slow to use. Every other zelda game uses items that are fast to use if they impede movement or are of average speed while allowing you to move reasonably. Also the items have very little use outside of ghost/heart piece hunting once you've done the dungeon the item is found in.

Beyblade had tons of potential until it was found you travel extremely slowly when not on a track with it.

Items you get in later dungeons are less useful outside that dungeon by purpose. Wouldn't it totally suck if you had to fear that you are missing tons of content just because you don't reexplore the whole world of the game everytime you get a new item or an upgrade for an item that might open some new pathes? Some backtracking is fine, some revisting too, but I don't want to revist every place a trillion times. I believe that those items get less useful on purpose. I think it's balancing the game rather than anything else.

[Geoffrey]

Items you get in later dungeons are less useful outside that dungeon by purpose. Wouldn't it totally suck if you had to fear that you are missing tons of content just because you don't reexplore the whole world of the game everytime you get a new item or an upgrade for an item that might open some new pathes? Some backtracking is fine, some revisting too, but I don't want to revist every place a trillion times. I believe that those items get less useful on purpose. I think it's balancing the game rather than anything else.

I disagree with your argument. It's essentially saying "I don't want more content, that would take too much effort." Things like the Spinner and Ball and Chain were really fun when you got to use them. As far as I can remember there was only one area outside of that dungeon where you could use the Spinner. When at the very least they could have incorporated it into the following dungeons. It saddened me, especially considering how much potential it had. However, I think there's one thing we can all agree on: no more rupee-sucking armour! It was especially useless considering by the time you got it, it was useless anyways. I suppose that's kind of the same as the Magic Armour in Wind Waker, though.

Edited by Ornlu, 10 June 2011 - 06:25 PM.

[Moosh]

>Useless items
>Ball and chain
Not following you there. How is the ball and chain useless? It's gotta be the best item ever! It's way OP, like TP's version of the hammer from ZC.

[Sheik]

I disagree with your argument. It's essentially saying "I don't want more content, that would take too much effort." Things like the Spinner and Ball and Chain were really fun when you got to use them. As far as I can remember there was only one area outside of that dungeon where you could use the Spinner. When at the very least they could have incorporated it into the following dungeons. It saddened me, especially considering how much potential it had. However, I think there's one thing we can all agree on: no more rupee-sucking armour! It was especially useless considering by the time you got it, it was useless anyways. I suppose that's kind of the same as the Magic Armour in Wind Waker, though.

No it is not. It's your way to interprete it but it's not my message. You can't just go around and decide what people are "essentially" saying, because in most of the cases the people know better what they indeed are saying. You can question all you want but please spare me such attitude. Anyways, let me explain.
My point is that the items aquired in later dungeons don't get as much screentime as the items early aquired do because it would be too much hassle for the player, and no fun too, to have to revist the entire game world every time he gets a new item or a new upgrade. It's fine to revist "Inside the Deku Tree" after you got the bombs. When you get the boomerang, though, you don't really want to go back anymore. And much less when you for example finally get the Lens of Truth. And you don't have to. Because there is nothing you would miss. Just imagine you had to revist all of Hyrule after you got the Giant's Gauntlets in Ganon's Castle. That would suck, totally. Instead you just have two occasions where you can use them and that's totally fine.
And I believe that the game's balanced like that on purpose. I don't need to revist "Inside the Deku Tree" four times. The first time is great, the second time is fine and a third time would suck. If the game sucks, it's no fun. A game developer who decides to include no-fun moments in their games are likely rather untalented at what they are doing (or they have enough addicts, like WoW for example...).
About your point that they could've incorparated items like the Spinner in TP in later dungeons, I have to say that I'm not a big fan of that either. One or two occasions would be okay with me, but I don't want every dungeon to feel the same. If every dungeon after Arbiter's Ground played like Arbiter's Ground where's the point of playing the later dungeons? It's the better choice to invent new mechanics and items for each dungeon, espeically in those that are visted later in the game. It's a given that some basic mechanics are carried over from the early dungeons, but what monster of a dungeon would it be if you had to use every item you ever got in every new dungeon (which also features a new item or an upgrade). It would not only be confusing as hell, it would also feel like a big terrible mess of a dungeon and no dungeon in the game would feel unique.
I agree on the point of rupee-sucking armors, though. While I do like the way they managed such overpowered item in TP I don't see the point of adding it anyways. But I think I might've liked it at the age of 12 or something, nowadays I just don't see the point of such gimmicks anymore. So if there's an audience for such, go ahead and add it to the game. If I don't like it and it's solely optional than I have no problem with it. Complaining about the fact that there was a Magic Armor in TP is like complaining about the food because there's salt on the table which you could use if you liked to. No one forces you to use it, i.e. no one forces you to experience optional parts of a game that you don't enjoy. There's always the option of simply not doing it.