326 replies to this topic

[Deedee]

I thought you beat LoH:IU a long, long time ago Dimi?

I think I beat IE; never beat IU. I doubt I actually beat IE without cheats, though; I don't remember the playthrough but I almost certainly didn't have the patience or skill back then that I do now. Either way, there's now no question that I have beaten it without cheats.
 

Anyway to answer your queries. The quest is definitely intended as beatable. Maybe there's a bug with 2.55 or the later versions of 2.53. LOH:IU has been painstakingly tested in one of the earlier versions of 2.53, but its not the final one. To prove that everything is possible I made a playlist on youtube. See: https://youtu.be/Yjkgi5GSURI

Care to show me a video or screenshots of the room that you say won't let you win? As far as I remember the only room with a triforce and a jinx cure that won't let you go through the left door is fortress 7. And its intentional that you can't got through the left door on that screen, but you can still pick up the triforce if you know a neat trick. You were never meant to go backwards with an item cure in fortress 7.

I was indeed talking about fortress 7. ...you're meant to fight the goriyas with full health and sword beams!? I cleared out the entire gauntlet both left and right, then candle boosted out and made my way to the goriyas and killed them with silvers. I thought that's why there were so many item jinxers; to screw you on the return trip.
 

Of course things are rehashed from the original. What would you expect when the title is the same except for the insanity unchained part of it? Its supposed to be an improvement on the original game - namely scripting which was absent in the original.

I suppose; though it's a damn shame cause there's a lot of cool stuff, but then the old fortress 1 and 6 come out to rear their ugly head. The armos room is still terrible; I remember you saying somewhere that they were that way cause you couldn't force them to be a single step speed? To quote the ZC Wiki: "Armos: The enemy randomly (one in two chance) uses a different step speed when it spawns. Also, if its Anim. is "Armos (4-Frame)" then, if it uses the alterntive step speed, its tile is incremented by 20. Walk Attribute determines the alternative step speed the enemy can use." If you wanted to be cruel, you could force every single one to be the faster variant; if you can/want the player to dodge the armos even if all of them are fast, you should take the RNG out of the equation entirely and force it to be the meaner variant. If you think the faster ones are undodgeable, then you could force them to be slower.
 

The door leading of the map in fortress 5 is just a decoration. Don't worry about it.

Ah, okay.
 

Fortress 7 is supposed to be the hardest fighting sequence in the game - even harder than fortress 9. Hence the difficulty is in the shop. Its designed to mimic the world of business which is mean, unforgiving and brutal. Each enemy is a customer and they will pay you money when you kill them and collect the rupees. You use these rupees to pay your supplier for jinx cures, bombs and health. If your income is greater than your expenditure, then your business is profitable and you will eventually be rewarded with the triforce. In such a scenario, you need to constantly serve your customers and spend very little on your supplies. Are you a good enough soldier to manage it? Too many mistakes and you'll go bankrupt and have to restart.

The difference is that you don't get a restart in the business world, you just fail and become poor. Merciful James...
 

Isle of Rebirth wasn't designed to be played with 3 hearts I think. Anyone can artificially make a game hard by putting artificial restrictions but will it be a "fun" hard? Will it still be possible? LoH:IU is impossible with 3 hearts. I already know one room you'd never beat in a million years with 3 hearts.

I wonder now... I might have to try it sometime.

Edit: I don't think it's possible to beat it with 1 heart because of the dodongo on spike rooms being mandatory (including level 9's one) plus the triforce in 8 and 3 requiring multiple damage boosts. That said...


 

Anyway, well done on beating LoH:IU. I offer you my congratulations.

Thank you.

[James24]

Yes, you're supposed to shoot sword beams at full health.  If you take even one point of damage, you can't shoot beams anymore and you'll have to buy health costing a minimum of 100 rupees.  If you can't afford 100 rupees then its game over and you must restart the whole gauntlet.  I'm guessing you modified LoH:IU somehow to let you candle boost out somewhere so you retained your items.  As far as I know its not possible to do this unless you worked out a cheese that I didn't think of.

 

The fire-gel room and the armos room in fortress 1 are deliberately intended to be awful rooms.  They are punishment rooms which are intended to take up a player's time with RNG to get through.  There are two reasons for putting them in.  First, I have to ensure that only the right kind of player plays my game.  If someone random comes along and plays LoH:IU then when they hit those rooms they will be asked a question.  Do they really like the game enough to sacrifice their time getting the right RNG for those bad rooms?  If they sacrifice, then I'll know 100% for sure that they are a challenge quest player and that the rest of the content will go down well with them.  If they don't, then they aren't really my target audience and they're playing a game that they shouldn't be playing.  Its best if they leave quietly and not rage-quit.  I know of at least two people who were spooked off by those rooms and they rightfully shouldn't have been playing LoH:IU - so anecdotal evidence shows this works.  You passed the test and despite your protests about those rooms you still kept playing - you must be a real challenge quest player at heart.  Sorry if I ruffled your feathers a bit but it had to be done

 

Second reason I put them in is to punish any slipups in the aquamentus room(s).  There needs to be a real penalty for losing to such an easy enemy.  Otherwise the game gets too laid back and easy and that's not LoH:IU.  The player should always know that dying will have consequences and that playing well and not dying will be rewarded.  I think that's the right taste for a challenge quest.  Its like in IoR level 9 where there are moving platforms.  If you fall off there's a big punishment pit below with lots of monsters.

 

Correct that in the business world you don't get a restart.  If you make a bad investment, then your capital goes.  No second chances and no mercy.  But I don't think I can cheaply replicate this in LoH:IU so I had to be merciful - but not because I really wanted to be.  So the limit of your losses will be to just restart the second part of fortress 7.

 

I'd like to see a video of you doing the second part of fortress 7 with 1 heart and the white sword (its supposed to be played with the magic sword).  How do I know that the screenshot isn't just something that was done by cheating beforehand?

[Moosh]

As far as I know its not possible to do this unless you worked out a cheese that I didn't think of.

I know there's some premium cheddar candle strats in this program I've seen Dimi use that can bypass certain seemingly unbreakable bubble gates. I believe Yloh used the same trick to skip the broken Mirror Shield section in Armageddon Quest. Dunno if that's remotely applicable here, as I've been unable to reproduce it myself.

[DarkFlameSheep]

I think players should play LoH series only for his or her self-enjoyment, shouldn't hope more things.

Edited by DarkFlameSheep, 13 May 2021 - 03:40 AM.

[James24]

The mirror shield section in AQ is not broken.  It can be done B button only legitimately.

 

I have a friend who is the boss of a Chinese restaurant here in Australia.  He comes from China and he can cook the most authentic and delicious Chinese food I've ever known.  One day, I went to his restaurant and ordered one of my favourite dishes.  A few weeks later, I went to his home and he made the same dish for me again - but it was very different.  Apparently the food that's being served in his restaurant has been specially modified to accommodate for western tastes.  The one that he cooks for his friends and family at home are the authentic Chinese dishes from China.  So I asked him why he does this.  Why not just serve the authentic Chinese dish in his restaurant?

 

He told me that the authentic Chinese dishes just don't go down well with western tastes.  So he had to modify his recipies to accommodate for their tastes.  He told me it took him months to modify his recipies and learn the western tastes and he had to pay lots of money to lots of western testers to test his food.  So I asked him what would motivate him to do something like that?  No one likes to change the way they make their food especially if they really love what they are already making and especially if its going to cost him lots of money to do so.  He told me that if he didn't change his food to western tastes he would go out of business because no one would buy his food.  So he was doing it just for money.

 

LoH series was written just for my enjoyment, DarkFlameSheep.  What you see is my authentic home-cooked meal which I serve to myself and other like minded players.  If you want me to make type A Zelda then that belongs in a restaurant, and I will want to be collecting restaurant quality prices for my services.  You know?  That's the way the world works.

[DarkFlameSheep]

I completed Lv1, 2 and the spike game in LoH, also in IU completed Lv1 and got the wood boomerang, a first meat, I believe it was enough to enjoy LoH series personally. I meant I played them for my self-enjoyment. So I don't give them any rating or any review on database.

Edited by DarkFlameSheep, 14 May 2021 - 02:16 AM.

[Deedee]

I'm guessing you modified LoH:IU somehow to let you candle boost out somewhere so you retained your items.  As far as I know its not possible to do this unless you worked out a cheese that I didn't think of.

You can candle boost to the right of the dodongo room; you didn't put the same precautions there as you did the other exits.
 

I'd like to see a video of you doing the second part of fortress 7 with 1 heart and the white sword (its supposed to be played with the magic sword).  How do I know that the screenshot isn't just something that was done by cheating beforehand?

 
I knew you'd ask that, which is why I was recording the whole thing. I dedicated an entire morning just to attempt this challenge.



If you want part 1, I can upload it some other time, I had to split the recording due to space and uploading to youtube takes ages.

[Moosh]

I knew you'd ask that, which is why I was recording the whole thing. I dedicated an entire morning just to attempt this challenge.

If you want part 1, I can upload it some other time, I had to split the recording due to space and uploading to youtube takes ages.

Truly Dimi puts the "insane" in Insanity Unchained.

[DarkFlameSheep]

I saw Dimi frequently called the subscreen to pause and watch enemies and their attacks. I did the same thing in a room just before a first meat in Lv2 of IU, it decreases difficulty a lot. But LoH:IU is James's quest so he should judge it a cheat thing or not, I shouldn't.

Edited by DarkFlameSheep, 14 May 2021 - 09:36 AM.

[Deedee]

I saw Dimi frequently called the subscreen to pause and watch enemies and their attacks. I did the same thing in a room just before a first meat in Lv2 of IU, it decreases difficulty a lot. But LoH:IU is James's quest so he should judge it a cheat thing or not, I shouldn't.

Bad habit I picked up from doing Blighted Abyss 3 heart. There's really no reason I couldn't have fought the goriya 3's regularly beyond "I was impatient and wanted to do other things that day eventually". The entire gauntlet was cleared and I had as many attempts as I wanted.

[James24]

There are many things I would have liked to have done but I just don't have the motivation to figure out how to do it and the time to put them into my game.  When I was first playing LoH:IE I knew that the player could get large amounts of cash (sometimes infinite) cash by reentering certain rooms and fighting certain enemies.  Yloh also brought this up the first time I saw his playthrough of LoH:IE.  But I also knew that this was problem was something that would take a long time to fix because of my limited scripting skills. If I tried to fix everything that the player could possibly exploit it would simply take too long and there would be no benefit to my playthrough experience.  I would quickly lose motivation and it was very likely the quest would end up cancelled.  So I made a design choice to self-impose rules on my own playing instead of fixing the game to prevent such behavours.  It turns out to be a cheap and workable solution.

 

I figured that if people want to cheat, find loopholes and cheeses then they would do that but it would only cheapen their own experience of the game.  It didn't affect my own playthrough of the game personally, so there wasn't really much motivation to bother fixing it.  So, the way LoH:IU "should" be played is how I've displayed it on my playthrough of the game.  If you want the best playing experience, then it is the one you should aiming to emulate.

 

Yeah, I can see from the video it is possible with 1 heart but only because you gained infinite money from the fire-gel.  But lets look at the very un-fun and yucky things you need to do to pull it off 1) Rupee grinding like with the fire-gel.  2)  Rerolling the wind-wizzrobe room until the RNG makes it perfect for you to get through.  The RNG involved in the fire-gel and armos rooms of fortress 1 pale in comparison.  3) Continually pressing pause all the time in tight spots.  If I could cheaply and easily fix fortress 7 to get rid of those things I would gladly, but sadly its going to take a lot of time and effort to do something like this given my limited scripting ability.  Now compare that experience to the one in my playthrough video of fortress 7:  

 

https://youtu.be/HqQiWDHOYYM

 

I hope you can see that its a lot funner, cleaner and a lot better playing experience.  And that's what we should be striving for when we play games - a fun, clean and smooth playing experience.  Perhaps you should try it sometime and you might see a world of difference.

[P-Tux7]

You don't need scripts to change what enemies drop, do you? In fact, for every enemy except Ganon and Zoras you can make duplicate versions that can drop items or not, and return after dying or not.

[Anthus]

I have a friend who is the boss of a Chinese restaurant here in Australia.

 

What is his final form though? If they use peanuts instead of cashews on their war su gai it's a bust.

[DarkFlameSheep]

James cooked his homemade too spicy curry sauce, but even he didn't seem to eat it stylish. Even worse, Dimi spoiled it with throwing in tons of salt and sugar at the same time.

Edited by DarkFlameSheep, 15 May 2021 - 07:50 AM.

[Deedee]

I hope you can see that its a lot funner, cleaner and a lot better playing experience.  And that's what we should be striving for when we play games - a fun, clean and smooth playing experience.  Perhaps you should try it sometime and you might see a world of difference.

You know what? That's fair. "Yeah, you could do it that way, but you're having less fun doing so" is a pretty clean argument.
 
In fairness, I find enjoyment from breaking quests, finding unintentional cheese, and doing things in an unorthodox manner. That is the only reason I did this challenge, but you're right in that I would have just had an easier and more enjoyable time doing it the intended way; sometimes my addiction to breaking things leads me to making my time less fun.
 

You don't need scripts to change what enemies drop, do you? In fact, for every enemy except Ganon and Zoras you can make duplicate versions that can drop items or not, and return after dying or not.

The problem with that is that he wants you to get money from them the first time through, because the whole point of the gauntlet is getting money to stay afloat without going poor.

If you ever do another project James, I might be willing to script for it. I've probably offered this before, though I'm terrible at following up on offers because I'm easily distracted, so I'm offering it again with more time and motivation on my hands now.