44 replies to this topic

[Russ]

People trying way too hard to mimic critically acclaimed quests/questmakers - I know some may feel pressured to create quests that live up to the standards of critically acclaimed quests in our DB so that they can have that kind of glory too. While there is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from other quests, no one should be restrained by what critically acclaimed quests offer. In fact, if everyone were to mimic each other, then ZC would most likely end up like all the other milked franchises in video games.

This one's definitely a big one, and one of the easiest to fall into because you don't even realize you're doing it. For example, we all know I'm a massive IoR fanboy. Well now, making my own quest, I keep finding myself subconsciously trying to constrain myself to IoR's guidelines, which does nothing but hold me back at best and make my work seem like a cheep imitation of Evan's at worst. There's that fine line between taking inspiration from somebody and copying their entire design structure, and it's really hard to stay on that line at times.

Heavy Scripting - While it's true that some scripts actually enhance a quest to allow a cleaner gameplay experience. Some may go way too far with scripts that it does the opposite of what it's intended to do. Scripts != quality. Not one bit.

I wouldn't say this one's necessarily bad. Scripting is a tool, and like any other tool, it can be used for good or evil. I've seen quests that rescripted everything and were quite enjoyable for it. Conversely, I've seen quests that threw in lots of scripts for the sake of having lots of scripts, and they came out worse for it. It really just comes down to implementing scripts well. If they're used well, it all comes out fine. If they're thrown in just so the author can say the quest has scripts, it usually shows and drags down the quest.

Now a lot of stuff that I'd say has already been mentioned here, but let me throw in a couple of others bad design trends.

Completely Pointless Rooms. Don't get me wrong here; not every screen can be hugely important. Sometimes you just need a basic hallway connecting point A with point B. That's perfectly alright. But I've seen quests with passages dead ending in a room that serves absolutely no purpose. What's the point?

Boring Enemy Gauntlets. This is another one that needs some clarification. Having to kill enemies is good. Having sections of dungeons when you need to fight through a gauntlet of enemies is also alright. But I've seen entire dungeons that amount to nothing but endless kill enemies->open shutter rooms, and that starts to get boring after a while. Especially if you're just using default enemies. If you're going to make a use enemy gauntlet, at the very least use some custom enemies.

Unfair Difficulty. There's a difference between true difficulty and fake difficulty. Having a few challenging enemies that you have to tread carefully around can be very good. Throwing in lots of death knights and expecting the player to just tank through it is bad. Really, any time tanking is the main strategy is pretty bad.

In short,

[Ben]

Things I find to be a problem? Well, here's some in no particular order.

 

- Too much detail. Ground clutter is fine, but not every screen needs to be a Screenshot of the Year candidate. Don't just use flat grass in the Pure tileset, for example, but don't make a visually distracting mess. Don't use super-detailed tiles as your default ground cover, either! Subtle works well, and makes your areas more memorable.

 

- Cramped walkable area. This can be part of the above problem, but really it can be a problem anywhere else. If you're using standard Z1-style movement, make sure Link has at least 2-3 tiles of elbow room most of the time (preferably 3) and if you're using diagonal movement, you can get away with 2 tiles a bit more often.

 

- Too many enemies. The limit per screen is ten because that is seriously a LOT of enemies. If it's not a boss fight of some kind, you usually don't need more than five enemies per screen.

 

- Bland CSet usage. A personal peeve of mine is walking into a dungeon where every tile, every wall, and every door is colored the same. This is fine in the classic tileset, but using a different CSet for the floor in Pure or anything else can make a huge difference.

 

- Floor borders that go around objects make a screen feel smaller and cramped. Adjust the borders so that they appear to go under objects and the space will feel larger.

 

- Scripting used the wrong way. Try to have your scripts fit into your quest as nonchalantly as possible. Instead of having the only scripting be big bosses, for instance, have some regular old enemies with a bit of scripting powering them. It's less jarring and feels more organic to have scripting throughout a whole quest instead of just in spots.

 

- Samey overworlds. Try to place memorable landmarks or topography/biome changes around the world so that it's harder to get lost.

 

- Using every screen to hide something or have some specific purpose. Sometimes, a room is just a room. I'm not saying go nuts making a ton of useless corridors, but sometimes a hallway is handy to have. This makes it easier to use indicators for secrets instead of having to make them super cryptic, for example. Plus, having  rooms without any purpose is funny, as long as you only do it once or twice, because Eppy's reactions are pretty great.

 

- Big complex block puzzles. They were neat back in 1.92 and 2.10 but they're not all that original now. Please stop. Especially if you make me go through them multiple times. Unless you already have a plodding, slow quest already, they destroy pacing.

 

- Block puzzles are not the only puzzles in Zelda games. I'm sure that everyone making a quest is creative enough to come up with something else!

 

- Mirrorobes, Peahats, and Dodongos in rooms with shutters. Do not do this.

 

- A quest where you never use most of your items and just sword everything to death. Give some of your enemies some sword resistance and make them weaker to something else; the Enemy Editor can help you to add a little strategy to your quest.

 

- Worrying about nonlinearity. Open dungeons can be cool, but you can also have a linear dungeon that feels nonlinear because of the path it takes. You don't have to make every dungeon a straight line, but it doesn't need to be Metroid. Unless you're making a Metroidvania quest, in which case this whole point is moot.

 

- Warping around a dungeon because you decided to constrain your dungeon map to a specific shape. Who cares if the dungeon map doesn't perfectly resemble a sword or a heart; asymmetry is neat! If you need to add a room somewhere, just do it!

 

- Dungeons with long lines of rooms without any adjacent ones. This is a perfect way to frustrate players who are trying to get back to the end of a long dungeon section after dying or continuing.

 

- Rooms with no enemies that consist of a single tile-wide path. This includes overworld screens like bridges over water. No. These are a waste. Do something actually interesting instead.

 

- Too much enemy variety. It helps to give areas an identity of their own if they stick to 3-4 types of enemies without throwing random other things in there.

 

- Imitating Hero of Dreams. It's a great quest, but Shoelace made it. Make your own quest.

Edited by Bagel, 22 November 2014 - 04:05 PM.

[Avaro]

There sure are a few quest design trends I consider bad, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are bad. However, as others have mentioned, it is important to not try to limit yourself, by using popular quests as "guidelines". Always try to strave for creativity and always just make your quests however you feel like.

[Lejes]

• Heavy Scripting - While it's true that some scripts actually enhance a quest to allow a cleaner gameplay experience. Some may go way too far with scripts that it does the opposite of what it's intended to do. Scripts != quality. Not one bit.

 

This is almost exactly the opposite of what's true. I know the site is geared toward dozens of redundant screenshot contests more than anything else, but come on. Zelda Classic is about 15 years old and scripting is by far the most substantial update it's seen in that entire time. It's how new enemies, new puzzles, new items, new gameplay is created. Defining ZC's base features as the bedrock standard of all possible gameplay and scripts are pointless flourish is completely arbitrary. Especially considering how many flaws and random restrictions ZC has. When I see a block puzzle that has to be redone over and over instead of being permanently solved, I don't reflect on the beautiful purity of design. When an NPC warps you to another room to display a message instead of just talking after pressing a button near them like any game made in the last 25 years, I'm not wowed by the sheer integrity of the quest designer.

 

I feel like I've asked this before, but which quests go too far with the scripting? As far as I know, quests mostly fall into two categories: the quest maker doesn't know how to script and mostly sticks to using low key gameplay enhancements like real NPCs, or the quest maker does know how and uses it to create things new to Zelda Classic, either ported from other games or completely original. The latter category comprises the freshest and frankly best quests on the database.

[Dawnlight]

This is almost exactly the opposite of what's true. I know the site is geared toward dozens of redundant screenshot contests more than anything else, but come on. Zelda Classic is about 15 years old and scripting is by far the most substantial update it's seen in that entire time. It's how new enemies, new puzzles, new items, new gameplay is created. Defining ZC's base features as the bedrock standard of all possible gameplay and scripts are pointless flourish is completely arbitrary. Especially considering how many flaws and random restrictions ZC has. When I see a block puzzle that has to be redone over and over instead of being permanently solved, I don't reflect on the beautiful purity of design. When an NPC warps you to another room to display a message instead of just talking after pressing a button near them like any game made in the last 25 years, I'm not wowed by the sheer integrity of the quest designer.

 

I feel like I've asked this before, but which quests go too far with the scripting? As far as I know, quests mostly fall into two categories: the quest maker doesn't know how to script and mostly sticks to using low key gameplay enhancements like real NPCs, or the quest maker does know how and uses it to create things new to Zelda Classic, either ported from other games or completely original. The latter category comprises the freshest and frankly best quests on the database.

I was mainly referring to people who make scripting a necessity without actually thinking if they really need to script whatever they need to or if they can pull it off well.

[Lejes]

Does it really matter if it's necessary? Maybe you could pull off whatever you're trying to do through some obscure ZQuest trick like tiered secrets, but if you can script, why would you? ZQuest tricks like that tend to have a degree of jank that's almost always noticeable to the quest player anyway. Another example: I made a moving fog layer with a script a while ago. I probably could have obtained a visually identical effect with animated combos, but why would I want to? Setting those up would have been unbelievably tedious.

[Aevin]

On the subject of scripts, it's an issue I've seen from both sides.

 

My first quest, the Hero's Memory, was completely script free. I felt like it didn't need scripts. I wanted to make, at least in terms of gameplay, something very similar to the original Zelda. I wanted to use the same kind of mechanics, lots of hidden secrets, very simple puzzles and triggers, etc. I didn't need scripts to make what was at its core a Zelda 1 fangame with prettier graphics. I in no way look down on makers of classic quests who opt to make games like those, that are based firmly on the LoZ style.

 

Hitodama, on the other hand, was conceived from the beginning as something completely different. I didn't want it to be a Zelda game at all. I wanted magic instead of swords, no overworld, few guys and strings ...  In order to make the game I wanted to make, it was necessary to do some scripting, and I think I managed to produce something unique that was much closer to my vision of the game I wanted to play.

 

In the end, I see scripting as a tool for questmakers to make quests that are closer to what they envision. In some cases, it's completely unnecessary, and in others its essential, and I don't look at either type of quest as inferior to the other.

[TheLegend_njf]

Having to go through enemies without a sword. Why.

I must admit I am guilty of this for Souls 2. It sucks really, but I wouldn't know how to change it considering the story. The quest for the sword is a story part I don't want to remove. I'd give Link another item, but that contradicts the story.

All I'm saying is that for the record, under normal circumstances, I am against this design choice. But for that quest I haven't seen a reasonable alternative other than a boring stroll through an empty forest. (Which sounds worse)

 

 

With that said, here are my thoughts of bad trends (and sometimes outdated trends):

 

A need to use all of ZC's default features: While I would disagree that using Z1 enemies should be avoided. I am in agreement that there are just quite a few Zelda 1 enemies that doesn't have to be added to your quest just because they are there. There are just some Zelda 1 enemies that just doesn't go well with some quests. This goes the same for item. Do you need to use the ladder? Do you need to use the raft? Do you need to use the Lens of Truth? Or what about Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind? All I'm saying, if you feel these items help your quest and your ideas, go ahead and use them. But some people just use these items to just fill the void. I think it's unnecessary.

 

Too much focus on battling: I feel some people (in their minds) are born in the battlefield. You know these people. They use the excuse that ZC is limited in puzzles, so they approach quests with battle type quests instead. There are so many ways you can enhance gameplay to each and every screen in your dungeons that it amazes me how people can even be remotely satisfied throwing 5 goriyas in a room and call that gameplay, it's not gameplay, it's 5 goriyas. Fuck sakes!

 

 

Having to avoid enemies while being harmless: Haha! Souls 2 did this. I am guilty of this! I'll shut up now. 

 

okay, all jokes aside. There are very few excuses to do this. There are many ways you can fix this, and I may even find some way to fix this in Souls 2 as well. Enemies are not glorified slider traps, they are enemies, and they should be treated like enemies unless you make something very specific. (like avoiding like likes in a certain level in TRIFORCE.. lol)

 

 

Being too linear, or too non-linear: I want to say this right now. Linear isn't a bad thing. I'll repeat. Linear isn't a bad thing. But of course, it's just common knowledge of how bad too linear can get. You got this gut feeling when you know you are playing a quest that is too linear. But on the other side of the coin, you also got this gut feeling when you know you are playing a dungeon that is too complex and full of turns and passageways and directions that only exist for the purpose of being as non-linear as possible. This type of design overwhelms and exhausts players, sometimes there is no harm just going through a straight with a few challenges to beat along that straight path. It's just one of those fine line kind of issues. 

 

 

Some things excused to be "challenges" but is in fact just very mean: Everything in the Temple of Cole makes for a good example of this. lol Anyways, to be more specific. An excessive need to create unfair situations is a horrible trend. Why do this? Because it's hard? Of course it's hard. I've seen some things that human beings just cannot do. They'll use the excuse "if you keep trying, you'll eventually get it". Ya, I can go to a slot machine and eventually win $100, but I don't want to play a video game that is built entirely out of the slot machine approach and than being told by the quest author that it's "challenge". No it's not fucking challenge, it's bullshit. I play a lot of games with a lot of unfair situations that tend to get very luck based, but the games I play doesn't use that as it's entire design philosophy. No reasonable game should do that unless it's an arcade game designed to take coins away from the suckers who are foolish enough to play them. A little bit of unfairness/luck isn't totally a bad thing (slot machines are addictive afterall), but damn, if your entire philosophy runs on putting people into unfair, cruel, mean, and sadistic situations, you shouldn't be making a quest, you should be getting proper therapy. The Temple of Cole is self aware of this, and has been seeking therapy for years, but there isn't much therapy that's ever going to help it. 

 

Poor Scripted Enemies or Bosses: This is pretty much just self explanatory. Just odd, strange, erratic, sometimes unfair enemies, with poorly designed attacks, and terrible hit boxes. People are too eager to push out a scripted enemy these days. 

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 22 November 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[Dawnlight]

Does it really matter if it's necessary? Maybe you could pull off whatever you're trying to do through some obscure ZQuest trick like tiered secrets, but if you can script, why would you? ZQuest tricks like that tend to have a degree of jank that's almost always noticeable to the quest player anyway. Another example: I made a moving fog layer with a script a while ago. I probably could have obtained a visually identical effect with animated combos, but why would I want to? Setting those up would have been unbelievably tedious.

I believe I should have rephrased it to "Excessive use of scripts." In a way where people have scripts just because it looks flashy with no benefits to the player whatsoever.

[Russ]

In a way where people have scripts just because it looks flashy with no benefits to the player whatsoever.

People do this? I can't honestly think of any quest that does this; all the quests I've played with scripts recently had a legitimate reason to have those scripts and the scripts benefited the player. Can you give some examples of this?

[Dawnlight]

People do this? I can't honestly think of any quest that does this; all the quests I've played with scripts recently had a legitimate reason to have those scripts and the scripts benefited the player. Can you give some examples of this?

Note that this is completely subjective, but usually the gimmicky stuff like the rolling script which is in reality Roc's Feather without the jump. Any script that is bottlenecked by lack of Z3 scrolling is pretty much useless.

 

Though to be fair, today's view on scripts could have very well changed dramatically from several years ago which could explain the heavy disagreement.

[Russ]

Note that this is completely subjective, but usually the gimmicky stuff like the rolling script which is in reality Roc's Feather without the jump. Any script that is bottlenecked by lack of Z3 scrolling is pretty much useless.

Fair enough. But... has any quest actually used a rolling script? I can't think of any.

I guess I just don't understand the antagonistic attitude towards scripts in general. You can complain about them just being used to be flashy like that, and it's a fair enough hypothetical, but I don't ever see it actually done. And when a script is doing something ZC can't do or doing a better job of something that ZC does poorly, I don't get what's not to like about it.

[Air Luigi]

The issues aren't normally the scripts itself (well, sometimes simply they don't fit the quest), even if I see some of them well executed, the issue is that focusing too much in the scripted content can lead to weak layouts or a lack of work in atmosphere. Some people think that a cool gimmick/script make automatically a good dungeon, neglecting other important aspects of design. Scripts help, but don't forget than Zelda is about exploration, lively worlds and hidden secrets.

[TheLegend_njf]

Bottom line, don't put all your eggs in one basket. 

[strike]

NJF- I feel like all your points apply to my demo XD

I'm starting to see that parts of my game have some serious problems.

-Strike