63 replies to this topic

[Anthus]

Here is my take on feedback, and I have changed how I feel about it a lot, and maybe this will help you from getting discouraged.

I understand why it can be frustrating. You spend hours and hours building, and testing, and refining this game. You want it to be perfect. You show it off, and hope to check the thread the next day and see dozens of replies. But, there aren't. The thread has a few posts, and most of them are negative. The average user has the bar set waaaay too high for the quests they see. If it's not glossy and sexy to look at, "it probably sucks". I don't think there is much point in asking a community of people who A) have ridiculously high expectations for a quest, and B) by enlarge, care only about how pretty something is. Let's face it, quest makers using Classic are a dying breed, and it's sad to see people care less and less about these types of projects. It is pretty hard to get anyone interested in a game unless it looks like A Link to the Minish Sword of AWESOME, and uses tons of scripts to make it 'different'. I don't typically ask for feedback, but I welcome it, and prefer constructive over flattery (not to be confused with 'negative' and 'positive'), but either way, I go into it knowing that it is MY game, and I will make it how I want, regardless of what people think. ZC is a hobby. None of us are getting paid to do this, so it can be very disheartening to see your hours of work go unnoticed. The ZC world is over-saturated with "pretty" quests that all look the same at the end of the day, and will probably go unfinished, and no-one cares about the little Classic quest that could anymore.

When I post a screen, I'm doing it to show what I've done, take it or leave it. The last thing I really would want to do with something personal I've made and unfinished is go "Hey, here's my shit, rip me a new one". I like using the program, and I know everyone has different motivations, and reasons for pressing on, but mine is the satisfaction of knowing I've made something I want to play, and maybe, just maybe a few others might like it. You will never be able to please everyone, and make everyone love your work. You can't get the entire board interested in a project anymore cause there are just so many of them now. All you can do is make it for you, cause you are the only person who can make you finish it, and make it worth it to do.

I hope this has been helpful. It was certainly something. Anywho..

Edited by Anthus, 31 December 2012 - 04:10 AM.

[Orithan]

I understand why it can be frustrating. You spend hours and hours building, and testing, and refining this game. You want it to be perfect. You show it off, and hope to check the thread the next day and see dozens of replies. But, there aren't. The thread has a few posts, and most of them are negative. The average user has the bar set waaaay too high for the quests they see. If it's not glossy and sexy to look at, "it probably sucks". I don't think there is much point in asking a community of people who A) have ridiculously high expectations for a quest, and B) by enlarge, care only about how pretty something is. Let's face it, quest makers using Classic are a dying breed, and it's sad to see people care less and less about these types of projects. It is pretty hard to get anyone interested in a game unless it looks like A Link to the Minish Sword of AWESOME, and uses tons of scripts to make it 'different'. I don't typically ask for feedback, but I welcome it, and prefer constructive over flattery (not to be confused with 'negative' and 'positive'), but either way, I go into it knowing that it is MY game, and I will make it how I want, regardless of what people think. ZC is a hobby. None of us are getting paid to do this, so it can be very disheartening to see your hours of work go unnoticed. The ZC world is over-saturated with "pretty" quests that all look the same at the end of the day, and will probably go unfinished, and no-one cares about the little Classic quest that could anymore.

When I post a screen, I'm doing it to show what I've done, take it or leave it. The last thing I really would want to do with something personal I've made and unfinished is go "Hey, here's my ****, rip me a new one". I like using the program, and I know everyone has different motivations, and reasons for pressing on, but mine is the satisfaction of knowing I've made something I want to play, and maybe, just maybe a few others might like it. You will never be able to please everyone, and make everyone love your work. You can't get the entire board interested in a project anymore cause there are just so many of them now. All you can do is make it for you, cause you are the only person who can make you finish it, and make it worth it to do.

Thanks. I agree with you for the most part, except for the fact that I rarely play quests (the most recent quest I played was Isle of Rebirth and that was like a month ago). My main motivation for building a quest is for the satisfaction of actually completing a good quest. I hate it when I see someone judge a quest mostly based on its screendesign and scripting (2.5), mostly skipping the rest of the game. Isle of Rebirth is a great example of a well-received quest that has only decent screendesign at best (I can count several problems with many of its screens), but it makes up for it with being great in almost everything else (out of what I played so far). On the same token, screendesign is important, but it is not as important as what I would like to call a "vocal minority" (a large portion of our active memberbase, who have similar feelings on a particular subject and is usually tiny in comparison to our total memberbase) makes it out to be. I am only touching on this particular subject of screendesign here, but feel free to make another thread about our expectations as a community.

I do have to disagree on one point, however. The only quests that will look the same by the end of the day is if the designers don't look at decent, different sources of inspiration. My overworld design for TLKDX I felt was the best work I did in DoR, but that was all based on a rushed newbie quest. One of the screens I liked the most in what was my attempt at remaking Moscow Modder's The Lost Kingdom was the screen with the entrance to Ganon's Cult, but I felt that I could only do that because I looked there for inspiration.

[Jamian]

I agree with Anthus, you should first of all think about making YOUR game, and hope others will like it as well. In any case you can't please everybody at the same time so there are bound to be people who don't like it, whatever you do.

As for giving feedback: I think eveybody should always be friendly about it, even when giving negative feedback. None of us are getting paid for making quests, so there's no reason to complain if you don't like a particular quest.

[Dawnlight]

From reading your posts, I can clearly see that you're not having any enjoyment at all when developing quests. You seem to be hungry for positive feedback and "mild" criticism and take relatively harsh and negative feedback as a personal attack.

This is one of the most common newbie mistakes in the ZC community. And believe me, those who don't resolve this mistake end up in this dark cold "abyss" where they are so selfish, have such an elitist attitude, and they call their own work "legendary" that they become a huge pain to everyone as they claim that they are "the best questmakers ever".

I've seen several people suffer from you are suffering now and we've always try to save people from falling into this "abyss". And those who are saved from this problem end up making vast improvements in their work (you guys know who you are).

So what if people absolutely hate your work? Don't take it as a personal attack. And from what I have read, apparently one person who was bashing your work hard was Giggidy. Remember he was Revfan9. You're probably too new to know about his history, but he makes some of the harshest comments ever in PZC and in the AGN forums. So don't worry about him. That's the way he normally critiques whether good or bad.

Lighten up, grow a backbone, and take it one step at a time. The ones who are willing to improve end up succeeding. And I agree with Nathaniel, be more specific on what you want critiqued if you want it so much to improve. Use negative feedback as a weapon to try to improve overall in your work.

Edited by Dawnlight, 31 December 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

I agree with Anthus, you should first of all think about making YOUR game, and hope others will like it as well. In any case you can't please everybody at the same time so there are bound to be people who don't like it, whatever you do.

I both disagree and agree. I disagree because what Orin was saying here, was that he wasn't getting enough feedback. Which means he want said feedback. Wanting feedback isn't a bad thing, but at the same time, we are not getting paid, so why should you make a quest for anyone but yourself? I think it depends on what you're trying to do. I personally want to use the experience I gain here to grow as a designer. To do that, I have to entertain the player, but if your goal is simply to have created something, then there's no reason as to why you should have to do anything 'right'.

I will say though, that a big part of this problem is the nature of Zelda Classic itself. Quests almost never stand out to me, because most of them only want you to trek through dungeons and grab triforce pieces. It has grown stale, and I think everyone would be doing everyone else a favor if we all decided to just be a little more creative with this tool. Cause Zelda Classic totally can make different kinds of games. You just have to step out of your comfort zone to do it. But please do!

As for giving feedback: I think eveybody should always be friendly about it, even when giving negative feedback. None of us are getting paid for making quests, so there's no reason to complain if you don't like a particular quest.

What do you even mean by this? Of course you should be nice - it's not as if that only counts when pointing out flaws in somebody's work. There's no fine line between proper criticism and just being a dick. In fact I'd say the line is very visible, and it shouldn't be hard to avoid stepping over it.

[Mero]

I'm afraid you all just might be not using your heads to it's full processing power except Nathaniel and the original poster. To fix this, I suggest upgrading your drivers and software everyone to Good Constructive Feedback version 2.0.

I agree with you completely OrinXD. If your feedback isn't constructive "good or bad", then say hello to the bottom of the Bus for me okay. And if it's bullshit badgering... Then say hello to my shotgun. >_<

There are 5 types of feedback.

Constructive Feedback that praises: This block puzzle was good because you made use of hole combos to rotate the blocks 90 degrees.

Constructive Feedback that scorns: This block puzzle was bad because the solution is quite obvious, and requires zero brain power. Perhaps if you we're to make it so some of the blocks had more switches under them and pushing a block on some switches creating more blocks would result in having the player needing to think on how to solve it.

Deconstructive Feedback that praises: The dungeon's palette is awesome! <-The reason this iis deconstructive is because it doesn't explain WHY it is good.

Better way. "i like how the black and purple give the dungeon a very gloomy feel, good color combination."

Deconstrucive Feedback that scorns: This is the most ugly dungeon I've ever seen. <- Doesn't explain why again.

Better way. "red and Green?" Sorry but this color combo for a haunted castle doesn't work. Try using it in a christmas dungeon instead.

Bullshit... You suck at making quest. <- Let's not go here shall we.

The most important part of feedback is that you explain WHY and in the event of having to offer bad feedback also HOW to make it better.

[Moosh]

I haven't given you much feedback because your design philosophy is pretty much the polar opposite of mine. If I were to fully critique ZLW it would ultimately end with me saying essentially "start the whole quest over again". I tried my best to give feedback on some minor things that could be easily changed, but other than that there's really nothing much I can do. I use Classic is a way that is vastly different to how you use it. As for Lost Kingdom DX, it was never a project that piqued my interest.

As I said before, you could add more scripted stuff. Scripting can make anything better if implemented right. Scripting could probably even make Mario Quest fun...I need to do this. Mario Quest DX: Coming Fall 2051.

Edited by Moosh, 02 January 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Dawnlight]

Guys, feedback is feedback whether or not you think it is. Rules don't need to be enforced to give an opinion.

Asking specifically for what kind of feedback you want when presenting something is what really matters.

[Mero]

Guys, feedback is feedback whether or not you think it is. Rules don't need to be enforced to give an opinion.

Asking specifically for what kind of feedback you want when presenting something is what really matters.

I disagree. We do need rules for feedback and criticism. If someone told you something was absolutely wonderful or worst totally terrible, how would that make you feel if no explanation to why they feel that way is given? All Opinions can be positive or negative it doesn't matter. They simply need to be constructive that's all. If not, trouble can brew between members.

[Dawnlight]

I disagree. We do need rules for feedback and criticism. If someone told you something was absolutely wonderful or worst totally terrible, how would that make you feel if no explanation to why they feel that way is given? All Opinions can be positive or negative it doesn't matter. They simply need to be constructive that's all. If not, trouble can brew between members.

I would politely ask why, but it is not a necessity for people to do so or even respond back. It would be silly to enforce something like that as a rule. That's like saying someone here should get banned for making non-constructive comments about screenshots.

Edited by Dawnlight, 02 January 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Nathaniel]

Yeah, you can't really have a set of rules on feedback, but you can certainly have suggestions. As I mentioned before, if he wants people to cover certain things in the feedback, or to go by what he considers to be feedback, he has to let them know what he means by it (before the opportunity arises). Those who provide feedback are voluntarily doing it, as there is no obligation to do it a certain way. If he wants something, he has to ask for it, and the chances of him getting the desired feedback are better (assuming he doesn't rub people the wrong way when making requests), but there are no guarantees of it. By asking for feedback, he is also opening up the gates to potentially hearing some things that he might not be ready to hear, whether he realizes it or not. It's just part of the beast. The only problems that could arise that would be a staff concern would be situations that clearly break our already established rules.

[Kite]

I had a longer response to the actual thread in mind, but Nathaniel pretty much covered it for me already: if you want specific feedback, make some simple questions about what you want feedback on. There isn't a guarantee that you'll get that feedback, but people will have a better idea of what to comment on if they have focus.

As for this "we need rules for feedback" stuff... no. That's probably not happening. There are specific threads that ask for specific types of feedback such as The Official Quest Screenshot Critique Thread, but those pinned threads are the only ones where the staff will actively try to steer things. Even then, we only really do that if comments broach into harassment territory or something else against the rules. We do have guidelines, but those are not "you'll get banned if you break these" rules (granted I guess we should emphasize that since this isn't the first time that confusion has come up).

I refuse to punish someone just because they had an opinion that wasn't liked. I'll punish someone if they harass someone else or break another rule, but I'm not punishing them for having an opinion, even if it wasn't well thought out. I know I've actually marked down some people for not being courteous in the Screenshot Critique Thread and pointed them at the guidelines, but I only did that since they were already in the realm of harassment at that point and the guidelines are useful tips on how to not enter that realm.

However, you are free to frown at criticism if you don't like it so long as it doesn't become too disruptive or break the rules. I'm going to admit that there have been comments on Fairy Dream that have disturbed me (particularly the ones that think it's a resource instead of a game), but I've just had to frown at them and move on. I might complain a bit, but ultimately all I can do is make it known I'm not a fan of that ideology. I can't actually force people to think differently.

Anyway, part of the reason that the screenshot critique thread has... well... critique is because the members unconsciously and consciously enforce it without entering rent-a-mod territory. They do this through their behavior in making and replying to comments. I admit that a lot of comments on PureZC have been hugboxes, but I've also witnessed a fair share of constructive criticism. It's the responsibility of the community to yea or nay the types of comments they want. If they want a hugbox, that's unfortunate. But we won't stop it since that would be what the community wants. The staff shouldn't be required to decide what types of comments people should post, which is what I think some people want. We've been trying to relax things because the staff shouldn't be doing all of the community's thinking for it. It means there are going to be things that seem stupid to some people. But hey, at least it's not at the level of Youtube comments.

I think the best way to go about getting comments the way you want them is to set an example. If you want constructive and honest criticism, give constructive and honest criticism to other people. If you clearly don't care to do that for others, don't expect them to return the favor if they are not already in that mindset. Just be sure to not be a jerk about it.

tl;dr: Read Nathaniel's post.

[strike]

There do need to be rules in place. How would you like it if someone rated your quest that you had spent years on as a zero only saying ''mehh nOt my stile.. '' in the comment. Perhaps you send him a P.M. asking about it and he says '' i can rate it how ever i want''. Without explanation and constructive criticism the ''feedback'' is demeaning and worthless.

-Strike

[Dawnlight]

There do need to be rules in place. How would you like it if someone rated your quest that you had spent years on as a zero only saying ''mehh nOt my stile.. '' in the comment. Perhaps you send him a P.M. asking about it and he says '' i can rate it how ever i want''. Without explanation and constructive criticism the ''feedback'' is demeaning and worthless.

-Strike

It's called having a backbone and accepting the fact that you can't impress everyone no matter how biased they are. There are some individuals who take pleasing the audience so seriously that they defeat the purpose of ZQuesting being a fan, enjoyable hobby.

Edited by Dawnlight, 02 January 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

There do need to be rules in place. How would you like it if someone rated your quest that you had spent years on as a zero only saying ''mehh nOt my stile.. '' in the comment. Perhaps you send him a P.M. asking about it and he says '' i can rate it how ever i want''. Without explanation and constructive criticism the ''feedback'' is demeaning and worthless.

-Strike

He can rate it whatever he wants. That's the point of having a personal rating-system - so people can give their ratings. Not the ratings they think will please the creator.

I've already said that there are two kinds of feedback: the bullshit-kind and the kind you want more of. That's not really a fact, as much as it is my opinion, but I think there's something to be learned from it still. Maybe it'll be easier to understand if I explain it like this: criticism is not about making the creator of the content feel good about himself. It's about letting them know what you think of their work. If you go around telling everyone you love their work, because you're afraid people might get hurt if you tell them that you don't really like one or two details about their project, they are eventually going to stop listening to your 'feedback'. Because after a while, it's very obvious who's guilty of doing this and who isn't.

We all appreciate flattery, and there's nothing wrong with it, but I also think it's utterly essential to have a community who's willing to point out problems, because if we don't, none of us are ever going to improve. That said, there's a big difference between being constructive and just being an ass. If you rate a quest low without having any actual reasons to back it up with, you've failed as a reviewer. I review games for a living, so maybe I take these ratings a bit more seriously than most people, but our community needs a voice, and when it comes to our database, the rating system is that voice. We just need to make sure it's used properly.

Having high standards is good, because it can only lead to improvement. Too high standards is a whole different story, though considering where we are right now, I seriously doubt that will ever be a problem around these parts.