1043 replies to this topic

[ShadowTiger]

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First, though, good news. I finally beat the allegedly endless dungeon.

It also shattered the old record for bugs in one area, but with that many rooms, is it really a surprise? >_>

Congratulations!! I'm really happy for you. I know it was an astonishingly annoying dungeon. My hat is off to you dear sir.

I hope you're going to go off to search for the Master Sword now, and the stuff at the bottom of the Excavation. The game is about to get a lot easier.

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In both locations, the switches actually change color when you step on them. It gives you a situation where the yellow switch is up and the blue switch is down when the yellow and blue blocks are the opposite.

Out of curiosity, was this pair of screenshots before you found a lot more switches like this? Because there aren't yellow and blue buttons; there are just ... buttons. One is up and the other is down. They're just colored like that. They're not supposed to represent the actual colors. Is there still a bug then?
 

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As it turns out, pretty much all of the color switches are yellow when they're up and blue when they're down. How about color-coding them to show which color blocks they're tied to?

... right. Although, that would probably make more bugs than not, because they're only two combos, rather than 4. Instead, I think it might be a decent idea to make two different passive subscreens for it, indicating which block is down. Might be more interesting.
 

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These two low wall corners look like they've been vertically mirrored.

Horizontally mirrored, actually. Weird, isn't it.
 

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So for some reason, when you enter this room from the south and hit right about where Link is standing, the game puts you on the the DMap used by the small rooms. The disappearing map is a dead giveaway.

Why is this weird? Well, that DMap is NES Dungeon-style, which means...

Yes. It's so the doors work. In that particular example, it really doesn't necessarily need them to work, since there aren't any shutters.
 

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The contents of this chest don't carry over between versions of the dungeon, which means I was able to double dip for this potion.

Whoops, that was negligence on my part. There are actually two (functional!) copies of that particular screen due to an overhead screen a few screens to the north of that. It was a really weird mechanic in-game.
 

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The door doesn't overlay, which is probably a combo type problem. This shot was taken with the blue blocks down; I dunno if the same thing happens with the yellow blocks down.

That's a bit odd, because that should be a Dungeon Dmap. In any case, I made them overhead combos.

 

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The effects of the switch don't carry over from the other version of the dungeon. Not exactly a bug, since it would've been a pain in 1.92, but since it's a breeze now with screen state carryovers it'd be a nice touch.

Thanks. I am definitely interested in bugs like that. That kind of consistency is important to the quest.
 

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More ceiling-walking...or maybe it's related to the glitch that happens when Peahats enter from the side of a screen. It showed up on the edge of the screen, flew straight north, then got stuck in the corner.

... ... I don't even know why there are peahats in this dungeon. Why are there peahats in this dungeon. ... is it because we hate peahats? I can see that. Hey, I was member #492 in the 'I hate peahats" fanclub. I still have the free waterbottle they gave out on the the first day.
 

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You can swim around the raised blocks here. Not that it's much of a puzzle, but it might've been meant to be solved nonetheless.

Oh I know, I was always confused by that. I can either turn the into ladderable pits, or I can make it much more hazardous to cross the water. Just to be adventurous, I added plenty of horizontal traps around the water.


 

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And considering how easy this one is to find, maybe make it a 50 or 100 instead of a 200?

Okay. ... Hm. Now, all of a sudden, I have to find the opposite of the concept of scrooge mcduck.
 

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The only enemies on this screen are a pair of Patras, which are immune to magic. This makes the mirrors here pretty much pointless.

Just for kicks, they are no longer immune to magic. Let's see how wildly gameplay changes because of that.
 

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This room is functioning normally for the most part...except I had the blue blocks down.

Interesting! That means there's a side warp issue somewhere. There were problems with that area previously. Because the combos are correct on both maps, as per the actual physical nature of the area. Okay, time to see what's going on. I suspect that this will be a VERY good time to implement that "Block status on passive subscreen" thing. I think I'll go do that now.

... Okay, I think I found the bug. Definitely a side warp issue. Thanks again. That one was obscure.

 

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-Was I supposed to find a hint or two on 2F somewhere? I figured out a couple secrets in the northwest corner that led to the Boss Key area by using a combination of the Lens and intuition, and I know the game requires you to have the Lens to get through the Elf Caves, but I still can't help but wonder if I missed something...

Besides the missing pot, I suppose it is easy to miss, perhaps. I added a few scratches on the wall, just in case.

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[Zenith]

Instead, I think it might be a decent idea to make two different passive subscreens for it, indicating which block is down. Might be more interesting.

I considered that, but I didn't know if you wanted to mess with making two more subscreens.  Then again, I also don't see how problematic it'd be to just make two more stair combos, one with a raised blue switch and one with a lowered yellow switch, and add them where it's needed.

 

Why are there peahats in this dungeon. ... is it because we hate peahats? I can see that.

That's probably exactly why they're in there. >_>

 

Besides the missing pot, I suppose it is easy to miss, perhaps. I added a few scratches on the wall, just in case.

Well, it was that wall and the invisible bridge and the fact that I may or may not have finished Marathon with an extra key.  There was such little information later on in the dungeon that it made me wonder if I missed a hint room or something.

 

 

31 screens?  Ho-hum, here comes another two-parter. >_>

 

This time, we're starting by finishing up the Excavation Site.

 

 

There's no hint whatsoever that this block can be walked over.  Not even the Lens says anything.

 

 

There also isn't a message for the...what would you call it?  Razor Boomerang?

 

 

 

Considering the occasion, there should probably be an exclamation point at the end of that.

 

 

 

Link doesn't hold up this key.

 

I think I figured out how the keys are duplicating.  When you pick up a level-specific key (which is what the ones in the Excavation Site are, right?) ZC gives you one level-specific key and one regular key.

 

 

 

Link doesn't hold up this Heart Piece, either.

 

 

There's also something going on with the lower part of this door.  Looks like it's using the combo for the locked doors.

 

 

 

Finally, this key is unobtainable...because the wall can't be walked through on the opposite side.

 

 

To get everything in the Excavation Site, I had to go back and get a few Relic Stones that I had to pass up on before.  I ran into a couple bugs during that.

 

 

Namely, Link doesn't hold up the Relic Stone in this room...

 

 

 

...And when you come back up from the floor below, the game puts Link in the doorway.  Another side effect of the original version only have one warp return point to work with.

 

 

Up next is the culmination of a sidequest, so, uh...I'm gonna have to put them behind spoilers. >_>

 

(Sidequest Spoilers)

Spoiler

 

The secret on this screen is temporary...even though I don't remember this DMap being NES-Dungeon style.  Either way, making players use a super bomb every time is a pain.

 

 

 

I keep finding weird ones.  If you try to head to the right from anywhere in Subrosia--anywhere at all, even a screen you moved left to get to--you end up on a blank screen, with more blank screens all around.

 

And if you Quit->Continue...

 

 

...You're back at the entrance to the Flooded Caves, but on the Subrosia DMap.

 

 

 

In the Temple of Heroes itself, a compass marker shows up on the minimap for no apparent reason.  Must share a level number with somewhere else.

 

 

 

When you get here and three other incarnations of Link show up...nothing happens.  Is this supposed to be a cutscene?  A boss fight?  I just move a little and then they disappear.

 

 

 

And, anticlimactically, Link doesn't hold up the goddamn Master Sword.

 

And, if you leave the screen and come back, the statue is holding it again.

 

...Hey, I wonder if you could make it so the Master Sword's theme plays when you pick it up.  It isn't very hard to edit sound effects for individual items, is it?

 

 

More on the next post...because otherwise I'd be one over the image limit again. >_>

Edited by Zenith, 21 July 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[ShadowTiger]

Hey there, welcome back sir.

I considered that, but I didn't know if you wanted to mess with making two more subscreens. Then again, I also don't see how problematic it'd be to just make two more stair combos, one with a raised blue switch and one with a lowered yellow switch, and add them where it's needed

Actually, luckily, adding Subscreens is a ton easier than messing with individual combos and adding them to individual screens. Subscreens are global. There's only a few Dmaps to alter, and they're all grouped together in the Dmap editor. It's already done, and works beautifully.

Well, it was that wall and the invisible bridge and the fact that I may or may not have finished Marathon with an extra key. There was such little information later on in the dungeon that it made me wonder if I missed a hint room or something.

I really can't quite recall off the top of my head if there was any such indication. I mean, it's an illusory nightmare. It's not like anyone is going to be living in your own nightmare. I'm surprised there are (gigantic slime) vendors in there at all, much less HCPs. Other peoples' nightmare are one thing. A nightmare with an illusion master controlling much of it is another. But I am overthinking this.

There's no hint whatsoever that this block can be walked over. Not even the Lens says anything.

Consistency be damned. If the Player won't try things when all else fails, they don't deserve treasure.

I think I figured out how the keys are duplicating. When you pick up a level-specific key (which is what the ones in the Excavation Site are, right?) ZC gives you one level-specific key and one regular key.

That's a pretty interesting theory. I like it. It's just concerning how there's only one counter in which to add the increasing quantity of keys to in the Items Editor: "Keys."

I mean DoY has never used Level-specific keys before now, but I'm really not sure what would make them so different.

Also, do you happen to remember off-hand if Link holds up regular keys in ALTTP? I suppose that would be the best source of external consistency to go by. Otherwise, I don't feel like he should be holding them. They make their own unique sound upon pickup, and it would clash with the screen's pick-up sound.

There's also something going on with the lower part of this door. Looks like it's using the combo for the locked doors.

Wow, didn't notice that. Good eye!

Finally, this key is unobtainable...because the wall can't be walked through on the opposite side.

That was one of the things I did to B-3 to make it more interesting. It's not supposed to lead there. There's a bit of warp-trickery involved in the walk-through walls. You have to move left from the screen four screens above the relevant one, where Link didn't hold up the key. There's a walk-through wall there, visible with the lens.

When you get here and three other incarnations of Link show up...nothing happens. Is this supposed to be a cutscene? A boss fight? I just move a little and then they disappear.

No, sadly, nothing is supposed to happen. Perhaps one day I will completely remake the temple of heroes into something far more interesting.

Far, ... far more interesting.

...Hey, I wonder if you could make it so the Master Sword's theme plays when you pick it up. It isn't very hard to edit sound effects for individual items, is it?

Oh not at all. The thing is, it'll just have to be timed right to actually get the full effect. But that's quite possible. I've done it before. That might have to wait until the whole temple is remade though. I mean four measly screens (Plus four cutscene screens) just don't do it justice.

The secret on this screen is temporary...even though I don't remember this DMap being NES-Dungeon style. Either way, making players use a super bomb every time is a pain.

I tried to use aaa2's multi-tiered permanent secrets script, but I think the fact that it's two different kind of secrets (One tiered, one bombed.) is messing it up. I'll keep hammering away at it I guess.

[Zenith]

Here come the spoiler tags.  Everything from here on out is very plot-relevant.  Everyone who hasn't made it this far, stay clear if you want the experience to be entirely new when you get here.

 

(Endgame Spoilers)

Spoiler

 

*aren't

 

The under combos also clash with the floor, but I guess that was obvious.

 

 

 

*amuck

 

 

 

It seems like this secret passage was layered poorly.  The whole combo was put on Layer 3 instead of just the brush.  It also doesn't stay hidden for very long, since enemies can go into there.  I actually had one spawn in the passage and come out.

 

 

 

Pretty sure "through" shouldn't be showing up on both strings. >_>

 

 

 

Transition error here.

 

 

 

This switch doesn't trigger anything.  I don't think the secret flags were even set up; the Lens doesn't show anything.

 

 

 

These two wall corners are mirrored.

 

 

(Easter Egg Spoilers)

Spoiler

 

This screen uses the DMap title of the Tokay Caves.

 

...And I guess it isn't an actual bug, per se, but the English here is kind of awkward.

 

Is there anything else hidden here, or is the spinning statue it?

 

 

 

We find ourselves at the penultimate minidungeon.  So close to the end, but still so many bugs to find.

 

 

The colors on the east and west-facing doors aren't consistent.  The opening is dark brown in the middle, but cuts to black on the rest of the doors, compared to the north and south doors using dark brown entirely.

 

...Did that make any sense?

 

 

 

The floating statues are bugged somehow.  I killed everything in this room except for them, went into a different room, came back, and the statues had been replaced by the enemies I had originally killed.

 

 

 

The statues themselves do scratch damage.  They don't seem all that threatening when they're hitting for about a quarter heart. >_>

 

Maybe they could also get recolored to something that blends into the dungeon better...

 

 

 

The under combo on this screen goes over any rubble on the floor.

 

And finally... (Miniboss Spoilers)

Spoiler

 

Players could potentially enter this room without any arrows and wind up trapped.  Maybe add a few of those bats you put into the Predator boss fight?

 

 

Notes:

-You know, when I first saw  the Level 4 armor in someone else's screenshot, I though making it solid gold was overdone, and maybe it'd look better to use the violet-and-silver look that Pure has as its default, or something else at least.  Now that I know there's a reason for it to be gold, and the hat and tunic are still slightly different colors, I'm more okay with it. >_>

-Speaking of which, Link's file icon for when he has it is using...I want to say CSet 0, for some reason.

-(Endgame Spoilers)

Spoiler

I took a quick look at the entrance to the Corrupted Deku Tree (which I'll be calling Level 9 outside of spoiler tags >_>), and yeah, you were right about it needing a new theme.  The Hall of Statues could also use one that isn't a repeat of a previous area, if you ask me.  Let's leave it open for discussion, but my preference would be the Temple of Time's theme for the Hall of Statues, and for the Deku Tree...this.

 

The problem with that, though, is it has no decent MIDI version...and I'm not skilled enough to make one.  We'd have to put out a request...or something.

Edited by Zenith, 21 July 2013 - 08:08 PM.

[ShadowTiger]

Spoiler

-Speaking of which, Link's file icon for when he has it is using...I want to say CSet 0, for some reason.

More like Cset 8 of the Extra Sprite Csets, but you're not too far off. It's a weird thing, really. I keep changing things but they're never what you'd expect it to be. Looks like blind luck needs to take hold here.

This switch doesn't trigger anything. I don't think the secret flags were even set up; the Lens doesn't show anything.

Ah. Yeah that one was another strange one. Had to pull off something hack'ish to get it working. Thanks.

Spoiler

This screen uses the DMap title of the Tokay Caves.
...And I guess it isn't an actual bug, per se, but the English here is kind of awkward. Is there anything else hidden here, or is the spinning statue it?

--------

Nope. It's just a little humor, apparently. Nothing special.

 

The colors on the east and west-facing doors aren't consistent. The opening is dark brown in the middle, but cuts to black on the rest of the doors, compared to the north and south doors using dark brown entirely....Did that make any sense?

It does, but the fix doesn't look any better, I'm afraid.

The floating statues are bugged somehow. I killed everything in this room except for them, went into a different room, came back, and the statues had been replaced by the enemies I had originally killed.

They had the "Never returns after death" flag checked. Probably because I hate peahats. But if they need to return, then so be it. >.>

Then again, even though they're entirely immune to the sword, the hammer kills them immediately. I'll take it.
 

(Music discussion)

I could actually really use an excuse to get a good "Temple of Time" midi into the quest. It might be worth importing

As for new suggestions, here's a brief list of potential candidates. I'm not really partial to any of them. They're just random things I'm finding.
Castlevania 64 Dungeon theme. It's dark and mysterious.
Diddy Kong Racing Haunted Woods - Eh.
SMRPG Smithy Battle Part 2 - Because I've always wondered what having final boss music instead of a final area music would be like. Huh.
Terranigma Beruga's Lab - Ooh! Here's a potential fun one. Too bad it's technological and not biological.
Castlevania Aria of Sorrow Black Sun - Nice and dramatic.
" " Clocktower - There's something about this one. Eh, too calm initially.
" " Heart of Fire Remix - Oh my god this is peppy. Wow.
Castlevania Circle of the Moon Big Biss Battle - Nice and dramatic, but too heavy on the drums.
Castlevania Harmony of dissonance Marble Corridor - So yeah hi I'm a big Castlevania fan apparently. It has a great opening, and is anything but active through out.
Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced - Dramatic and active.
Fire Emblem Inescapable Fate - Ooh, this one's not too bad actually. Definitely moody.

[Zenith]

(Quote Spoilers)

Spoiler

They had the "Never returns after death" flag checked. Probably because I hate peahats. But if they need to return, then so be it. >.>

Then again, even though they're entirely immune to the sword, the hammer kills them immediately. I'll take it.

Oh, they're Peahats?  I thought they were some version of Ghini 2, completely invincible.  Good to know something kills them.

 

Looks like blind luck needs to take hold here.

Then you can count on me to keep finding them, because if there's anything I don't have, it's blind luck.  >_>

 

 

Another shorter report this time.  I was busy for most of yesterday.

 

(Endgame Spoilers)

Spoiler

 

The middle part of the 2x3 statue is using a different CSet than the rest.  Part of me also wants to see the black around the edges done over by the floor pattern, but that might just be me.

 

 

 

Random top half of a Tokay statue sitting here.

 

 

Here we go.  Level 9.  This is it.

 

 

I guess this is more of a visual thing.  On all of the cross patterns, the blade trap always seems to be sitting on a void no matter which part of the cross it's on.  Finding a way to make it so players can see the rest of the cross below them would be cool, but it'd also be time-consuming...

 

 

 

This void is because of a botched under combo, though.

 

 

 

I don't know if this one's a bug, either.  These two blocks can be walked on.  On one hand, they're marked and even animate just a little, but on the other hand, maybe they were mistakenly put there, or maybe they're the using the same combo as a block you edited to use in a previous dungeon.

 

 

 

If this wall is bombable from this room, does that mean there's a way to bypass the locked door earlier on?  The pair of crosses in the room to the west might stop it, but I don't know for sure.

 

 

 

Speaking of a locked door, this one doesn't carry over between versions of the dungeon.  When you open it in the north version, go a couple rooms forward, and find another locked door with a key blocked off by the north end of a cross, then bomb a wall and press a switch to change it to the west version, you have to unlock the first door again, essentially using a key to get another key to open a different door that you already had access to.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

 

 

The status of the aforementioned bombable wall also doesn't carry over.

 

 

 

This one's important...and frustrating.  For some reason, this Blue Bubble does not work properly.  It doesn't remove sword jinxes, which meant that the few times the Red Bubbles in that one northeast room got me, I had to backtrack into the Hall of Statues to find a blue one that actually did its job.

 

 

 

Another visual thing.  The waterfalls in the dungeon don't have combos for where they land, and since the water combos used below them have water-ground borders, it looks like the waterfalls are going behind them...or something.

 

 

 

Two different versions of this room, both using the floor under combo for the treasure chest.  Is this room a gold mine for bugs or what? >_>

 

 

 

Remember how there was that one room in Error's Mansion that accidentally had different enemies depending on whether the gem switch was hit?  Well, in the north and south versions of this room, there are a few Cracktoroks instead of the Darknut-Windrobe combo here.

 

 

 

Finally, on the room immediately before this one, the room you end up in when you fall down a pit on the first floor, the top of the door isn't overlaid.

 

 

Music stuff (Spoilers):

Spoiler

SMRPG Smithy Battle Phase 2, Castlevania CotM Miniboss, FFTA Incarnation: This isn't what we're looking for here.  There are some rare occasions where a boss theme works in a non-boss situation, but a dungeon this slower-paced and built around its main puzzle is not one of them.

DKR Haunted Woods, Castlevania HoD Marble Corridor, all three Castlevania AoS themes: Also missing the mark, for similar reasons.  They're too fast paced and action-y for a dungeon that has you backtracking and looping around to previous rooms so often.

Terranigma Beruga's Lab: Solid, but you were right about it fitting a technological area better than a fully organic one.  It also doesn't have the feeling of, well, finality that a final dungeon needs.

Fire Emblem Inescapable Fate: ...Eh.  It's tense, but it feels like it illustrates an active struggle between the player and enemy, which fits its native game, but here, not so much.  It also doesn't help that the MIDI example you gave is missing a lot of the articulation and varying dynamics the original version has, which takes a lot of the personality out.

Castlevania 64 Dungeon: I want to say this one's the best option out of the ones you gave...but it still isn't perfect.  It feels more like a midgame or late game dungeon than the final one.  Plus, just about everyone already associates it with the Jungle Fortress in Link's Birthday, which was just about the perfect fit for it.

 

So...I guess we keep looking for now?

Edited by Zenith, 22 July 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[ShadowTiger]

The middle part of the 2x3 statue is using a different CSet than the rest. Part of me also wants to see the black around the edges done over by the floor pattern, but that might just be me.

Well, they are (well, were, as of the time of this writing.) on layer 0 with a transparent background, so I overlaid them onto a ground tile. Fair enough.

Random top half of a Tokay statue sitting here.

I have no idea why it was left in there. Whatevs.

I guess this is more of a visual thing. On all of the cross patterns, the blade trap always seems to be sitting on a void no matter which part of the cross it's on. Finding a way to make it so players can see the rest of the cross below them would be cool, but it'd also be time-consuming...

Yeah, that might not be too useful of a thing to "fix" - There are 4 maps (8 8x8 areas.) to fix. I don't think it's worth it, time-wise.

I don't know if this one's a bug, either. These two blocks can be walked on. On one hand, they're marked and even animate just a little, but on the other hand, maybe they were mistakenly put there, or maybe they're the using the same combo as a block you edited to use in a previous dungeon.

They were walkable when I started working on DoY over two years ago. I'm not the best when it comes to dungeon logistics, and I am inclined to leave them walkable. In fact it was exactly why I animated them, albeit awkwardly.

If this wall is bombable from this room, does that mean there's a way to bypass the locked door earlier on? The pair of crosses in the room to the west might stop it, but I don't know for sure.

Possibly, but at this point in the quest, locked doors aren't at all game-stopping when keys can be purchased. That, and one other reason that I suspect you've probably already found out about. Jingle jingle.

Speaking of a locked door, this one doesn't carry over between versions of the dungeon. When you open it in the north version, go a couple rooms forward, and find another locked door with a key blocked off by the north end of a cross, then bomb a wall and press a switch to change it to the west version, you have to unlock the first door again, essentially using a key to get another key to open a different door that you already had access to.


Does that make any sense?

The status of the aforementioned bombable wall also doesn't carry over.

I actually don't know why they're not resetting. There is a consistent screen state carryover between all four maps on every screen applicable here, on each side of the door, on all three of those screens of the screenshots above. Is it because it's an NES Dungeon style screen? I doubt it. It may require a script to function properly.

This one's important...and frustrating. For some reason, this Blue Bubble does not work properly. It doesn't remove sword jinxes, which meant that the few times the Red Bubbles in that one northeast room got me, I had to backtrack into the Hall of Statues to find a blue one that actually did its job.

Oops, it was an item-enabling bubble, not a sword-enabling bubble. I don't think there are even any item-disabling bubbles in the quest, come to think of it.

Another visual thing. The waterfalls in the dungeon don't have combos for where they land, and since the water combos used below them have water-ground borders, it looks like the waterfalls are going behind them...or something.

Yeah, you're right. That's a nifty trick there. O.o So I whipped up some spiffy-keen (I gotta stop talking like that.) waterfall effect tiles. I'd say they look pretty good, actually. Great!

Two different versions of this room, both using the floor under combo for the treasure chest. Is this room a gold mine for bugs or what? >_>

Yes. Yes it is. Two of the four rooms of that one didn't have layer 2 as an undercombo at all.

Remember how there was that one room in Error's Mansion that accidentally had different enemies depending on whether the gem switch was hit? Well, in the north and south versions of this room, there are a few Cracktoroks instead of the Darknut-Windrobe combo here.

Righteo. Also reminded me to start making effective use of the "Favorite Commands" bit in ZQuest. I gotta start a topic about that in ZC Discussion.

So...I guess we keep looking for now?

Well, sure, I guess. Do please throw midis at me though. I look forward to finding one we can all agree on. Very much.

[Zenith]

This just started to get ugly.  I was close to tearing my hair out last night...and you'll see why further down.

 

 

(Endgame Spoilers)

Spoiler

 

The only one outside the final dungeon this time; this warp tile is still the old version.

 

 

And we're back into the player's hellhole that is the Corrupted Deku Tree.

 

 

Right next to the boomerang is a spot where the corrupted floor suddenly cuts off without a corner.

 

 

 

In other detail-based news, it looks like the corners of the corrupted walls don't line up right with the rest of the corrupted walls.

 

 

 

This right here.  This was the first point where I went "uh oh".  This was my first real sign that nothing-not secrets, not the contents of chests, not locked doors--would carry over anywhere in the entire floor.

 

 

(Miniboss Spoilers)

Spoiler

 

More misleading conveyors during the double-team rematch.

 

 

 

In this version of this screen, only the block on the right is marked and walkable.  In the other three versions, both blocks are walkable.

 

 

 

This was where I started to get worried.  Two passages I hadn't been down, both locked, and still no sign of more keys.  If you've been paying attention, you'll notice that I start running low on all the extra keys I've been finding...

 

...But that isn't the bug on this screen.  The bug is that the spikes here deal scratch damage, like no more than 1/4 of a heart.  Seems kind of weak for a point where players will have the Red Mail at the very least.  Well, as long as you don't force players to take a hit to cross them, anyway...

 

 

 

Here's where I noticed that all of the west doors are actually mirrored from the east doors, not rotated, and it screws up the transition between the doors and the rest of the wall.

 

 

 

And finally, players could technically get through here without being hit by a single Red Bubble, since by this point they have access to a boomerang that can stun them.  But since it's optional, I want to say it isn't required for this part.  I'd say that if you're supposed to get hit by one, crowd them around the north entrance to the room like you did in the Predator, and for Farore's sake put a Blue Bubble in the previous room. >_>

 

 

Here comes the rant.  Get your popcorn ready. (Endgame Spoilers)

Spoiler

This dungeon.  This fucking dungeon.  This might be one of the most frustrating and difficult dungeons I've played, but for all the wrong reasons.

 

First of all, it takes a good ten minutes just to get there, since the only shortcut I've run into is one that lets me bypass the maze at the entrance to the Hall of Statues.  So I have to trek through the Deku Jungle, play the seal-destroying cutscene every time (which is kind of fridge logic-y anyway, how it plays more than once), go through the Deku Tree grounds both above and below, and then through the Hall of Statues, just to get there.

 

That part isn't too bad.  Just a pain in the ass.

 

The dungeon itself?  Ugh.  This has to be one of the least forgiving dungeons I've had to play through.  Most of the first floor is one long, backtracking-heavy path even after unlocking a few doors.  The problem with that?  How one mistake makes you start it all over,  Get caught by the magic from one of the multitude of Windrobes, including a few in narrow passages?  Back to the beginning.  Get hit by a Red Bubble in one of several rooms, including a couple that you have to go through two or even three times?  Back to the beginning.

 

But even that pales in comparison to all the locked doors.  Specifically, how they outnumber the keys nearly three to one.  I know that it's part of the dungeon's gimmick, and I know that the Magic Key is in there somewhere, but that does not justify what happens when the player finds the first East switch.  Three different passages open up, all with multiple locked doors, with no hint to which one needs to be explored first.

 

It's one giant guessing game.  Guess wrong, and you have to spend an hour or longer killing enemies to get 1,750 rupees to spend on another key.  Since the rupee drop rates are roughly the same game-wide, a lot of players would get the idea to leave and fight enemies in the Waking World or elsewhere.  Except...the only places that sell keys are in Goron City, Marathon Labyrinth, and the Hall of Statues.  Two are way out of the way, and the other only helps if you actually bothered to kill the more difficult enemies in the Deku Tree instead of fighting easier ones.

 

Then you spend all of that money, open the door...and two rooms later, there's another one.  You still have no clue whatsoever if you're going the right way, or if the Magic Key is here, or elsewhere, behind more locked doors that you have to spend more time money grinding to get the keys for.

 

And every time you get hit by a Windrobe or a Red Bubble on the way there, it's back to the beginning.

 

I...I have no idea what C-Dawg was thinking when he made this.  This is...this is like the Water Temple all over again.

 

This dungeon needs a tune up, a big one.  From what I can think of right now, it could be reworked so that you don't find or need a single key for most of the first floor, then having some point somewhere with a bunch of locked doors in rapid succession that basically requires the Magic Key.  A handful of the current locked doors could be replaced by triggers and floor switches that function in a similar way.  Maybe there could even be a trigger-based shortcut or two.

 

Just...something that wouldn't make people want to go look for a controller just so they can throw it. >_>

[ShadowTiger]

First of all, Revised quest file etc. Comes complete with some fixes and shortcuts in the 'tree.

Quote
This right here. This was the first point where I went "uh oh". This was my first real sign that nothing-not secrets, not the contents of chests, not locked doors--would carry over anywhere in the entire floor.

Oh, actually that room was my own mistake - The screen state carryover human-based system functions are very annoying, being pulldown-based. You've seen it. It's like instead of having to type in your posts here, you'd have to pick each letter of every word from a pulldown. Or using a rotary phone. It just gets tiring after some point, and I get distracted easily I suppose. Foo. Anyway, fixed. Oh and now the north-facing plus configuration (whatever we'll call it.) doesn't have a key at all because the trap is in the way.

But for the record I still don't quite understand why things like doors aren't carrying over despite their screen state carryovers being configured correctly.
 

Quote
More misleading conveyors

Fixed those last night.

 

Quote
In this version of this screen, only the block on the right is marked and walkable. In the other three versions, both blocks are walkable.

That's weird. Thanks; made it walkable.

 

Quote
This was where I started to get worried. Two passages I hadn't been down, both locked, and still no sign of more keys. If you've been paying attention, you'll notice that I start running low on all the extra keys I've been finding...

Yeah, at this point, I'm definitely going to be taking your advice and start unlocking a lot of doors on F-1, and locking more on F-2. I may even add an enemy Wizzrobe minion NPC or something that says that they took all the doors off of F-1 and put them all on F-2 to stop you, and that there aren't nearly enough keys. That might work. Thoughts?
 

Quote
...But that isn't the bug on this screen. The bug is that the spikes here deal scratch damage, like no more than 1/4 of a heart. Seems kind of weak for a point where players will have the Red Mail at the very least. Well, as long as you don't force players to take a hit to cross them, anyway...

An interesting point. The thing about this, is that it's possible to turn this from a minor annoyance and general slowing of the player into an actual obstacle they need to think about crossing effectively on every screen, so long as it doesn't become too repetitive. Hookshot puzzles and the like.


Although, in your opinion, should enemies be allowed to walk on the spikes? My initial inclination is that they should not. But that would be something to consider quest-wide, which I really wouldn't be too against implementing.

 

Quote
And finally, players could technically get through here without being hit by a single Red Bubble, since by this point they have access to a boomerang that can stun them. But since it's optional, I want to say it isn't required for this part. I'd say that if you're supposed to get hit by one, crowd them around the north entrance to the room like you did in the Predator, and for Farore's sake put a Blue Bubble in the previous room. >_>

Quite true that at this point, there can be no possible bubble related puzzles really. It's also true that in the future, the player will have the whisp ring to be able to avoid such niggling annoyances, though that will only after they have acquired the ladder, for obvious reasons.

 

Quote
Here comes the rant. Get your popcorn ready. (Endgame Spoilers)

Funny you should mention; I do actually have popcorn.


Spoiler tags make text slightly less readable. Eh.

Spoiler

Quote
First of all, it takes a good ten minutes just to get there, since the only shortcut I've run into is one that lets me bypass the maze at the entrance to the Hall of Statues. So I have to trek through the Deku Jungle, play the seal-destroying cutscene every time (which is kind of fridge logic-y anyway, how it plays more than once), go through the Deku Tree grounds both above and below, and then through the Hall of Statues, just to get there.

Just in the past half hour, I made the seal-destroying cutscene a one-time only event via clever warping tricks. It seems to work nicely.

Also, there is a shortcut that leads directly to the cliff-face entrance of the tree one screen directly to the west of where you arrive in the Deku Jungle. The shortcut is available whenever the cliff face opens, I believe. It's a bit obscure in ZQuest, and I don't quite recall how I did it.

There's another shortcut from a few screens away from the end of the Deku Tree Dungeon Here that leads to the screen to the west of the cliff-face shortcut. Be sure to hit that button.

 

Quote
This dungeon needs a tune up, a big one. From what I can think of right now, it could be reworked so that you don't find or need a single key for most of the first floor, then having some point somewhere with a bunch of locked doors in rapid succession that basically requires the Magic Key. A handful of the current locked doors could be replaced by triggers and floor switches that function in a similar way. Maybe there could even be a trigger-based shortcut or two.

Yep, the plan was discussed above, with the removal of doors from F-1 and the placing of them on F-2. Let me know what you think.

Really though, please do feel free to suggest where hints and such should be placed, and their phrasing and appearance and whatnot. I don't think of this endeavor as me mucking about in ZQuest while others do the testing for me. That's cruel and vicious, am I off? If you have an idea for a place, PLEASE don't hesitate to suggest it!! I've implemented more changes by other people than I have from my own mind thus far.

Oh, also, in the Tree, let me know if there are any rooms that don't stop the conveyors in it when you blow the whistle.

[Zenith]

(Endgame Spoilers)

Spoiler

But for the record I still don't quite understand why things like doors aren't carrying over despite their screen state carryovers being configured correctly.

I...guess it has something to do with them being NES-style doors?  I've only made two screen state carryovers, ever, and neither of them involved NES-style doors.

 

Yeah, at this point, I'm definitely going to be taking your advice and start unlocking a lot of doors on F-1, and locking more on F-2. I may even add an enemy Wizzrobe minion NPC or something that says that they took all the doors off of F-1 and put them all on F-2 to stop you, and that there aren't nearly enough keys. That might work. Thoughts?

The first two locked doors would still need to exist, as long as the SSCs started working properly...or unless you could find a way to replace them with floor switches and blocks in a way that still fit within the dungeon.

 

I like the idea of an enemy NPC taunting you and then accidentally saying too much.

 

"The only way you can stop us now is if you somehow found a key with infinite uses!

 

...Wait.

 

...Crap." *teleports away*

 

Although, in your opinion, should enemies be allowed to walk on the spikes? My initial inclination is that they should not. But that would be something to consider quest-wide, which I really wouldn't be too against implementing.

I dunno.  You'd have to go over every single screen in the game that has spikes, and make sure enemies don't get logjammed or stuck in small areas because they have nowhere else to go.  I definitely remember one screen in the Devouring Forest caves, with the three Dodongos and the spikes, that'd be a lot more painful if the player had to take a couple hits crossing them to reach the Dodongos, to kill them and get rid of the spikes.

 

Also, there is a shortcut that leads directly to the cliff-face entrance of the tree one screen directly to the west of where you arrive in the Deku Jungle. The shortcut is available whenever the cliff face opens, I believe. It's a bit obscure in ZQuest, and I don't quite recall how I did it.

Ah, right, I remember seeing that warp tile with the Lens and wondering if it was some kind of shortcut.  I also wondered if it was an accident, sitting in the middle of nowhere like that.  Maybe you could do a little more with the area around the warp tile, make that location seem more important?

 

Oh, also, in the Tree, let me know if there are any rooms that don't stop the conveyors in it when you blow the whistle.

...I didn't even know that was possible.  How was I supposed to know?

Edited by Zenith, 24 July 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Zenith]

...Any news?  I was hoping some kind of fix would be done soon, so I didn't have to spend hours getting enough money for all of those keys...

[ShadowTiger]

I had posted it at the beginning of my last post.  Sorry you were waiting so long.

 

 

EDIT:  By the way, I noticed that I wasn't receiving any notifications for this topic, as compared to any other topic that gets replies.  In the upper right of this very page.

[Zenith]

...I've hit another roadblock.  Problem is, this one doesn't involve the quest at all.

 

Yesterday, the battery light on my laptop started flashing for no apparent reason.  I mouse over the little gauge on the taskbar that says how much power I have, and it says "Irreperable damage to the battery has been detected.  Replace the battery with a new one."  it couldn't have been something I did, because I hadn't even touched it in over an hour when it started acting up.  In fact, it started from finding out that when I closed the lid, the damn thing froze instead of going on standby, something it's done maybe once or twice ever before.

 

A couple hours ago I noticed the battery gauge wasn't at 100%, even though it had been plugged in.  Then I put two and two together, and, well...it looks like my battery has suddenly decided to stop charging.

 

I've been trying to get in contact with someone who can tell me what went wrong and how to fix it, but...I don't know how long it'll take, how I'll pay for it, or how restricted this'll make me for the foreseeable future.  If I get really unlucky, I might end up losing all 30 hours of progress.  Not out of the question.

 

This is why I'm the token unlucky guy on my other forum.  This kind of crap happens on a regular basis.  So now, once again, my fate is no longer in my own hands...

[ShadowTiger]

G'haa. I am so sorry. I really have no problem reproducing a save file for you, though. I really don't. I mean if anything, the only problem, if it can be called one, is that I'd need the actual file path for your ZC folder. Or, I can prepare one for you on my end under my own circumstances, but you'd have to create a new folder for ZC in that same spot. I'm currently operating in C:\Program Files (x86)\Zelda Classic\ZC2.5 and I doubt we'd be so lucky that you're on the same path.

In the meantime, I wish for you a swift recovery on all counts.

[coolgamer012345]

Hey if you need a new game tester I would be willing to help.

Edited by coolgamer012345, 29 July 2013 - 07:25 PM.