326 replies to this topic

[KingPridenia]

Grats on beating LoH:IE! I enjoyed every part of the LP of what is basically "Kaizo Zelda". My overall rating for the remake is the exact same as the original from me, 4 stars. I really respect all the tricks that you're expected to know to survive and how you have to make it all happen in one well-executed run. However, both versions are way outside of my skill level. Regardless, I learned a lot from watching your videos and learned a lot of things about the ZC engine that I never knew before. I still feel some of the things are a bit annoying in that they're luck-based rather than skill-based, namely having to hope you get enough Rupees at the end of the dungeon or have a battle with the Random Number God and hope you win. Otherwise, a good attempt is for nothing.

 

So to be honest, I feel the negatives are balanced out by the improvements, hence why my rating for this remake is unchanged. Great job James and thank you for a crash course on learning how to exploit the ZC engine!

[Gleeok]

Wow, it took me three months to release all of the videos. Sorry about the long wait, all of the videos are up now. Here is the finale!
 
https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

Congrats Yloh. You know what this means don't you?

Yep, we need some more quests harder than this one now.

[James24]

Been a while and over the last year or so a handful of challenge quest players have critiqued my LoH:IE.  Since they followed the proper etiquitte for criticism, they had influence and I've made some major changes to the game.  Finally got around to fixing it up nicely and fully testing it and I'm 99% sure this will be my director's cut unless there's some major problem with it that I haven't noticed during testing.

 

If you've been in touch with me when playing LoH:IE, this quest should be in your inbox right now.  I'm posting here incase some players got LoH:IE second hand and want the final version.

 

These pictures outline the major changes I've made.  Once again, I'll repeat my assertion that LoH:IE is an experts-only quest and should not be attempted by players who do not have the requisite abilities to play.  The requisite abilities usually means completion of Armageedon quest and LoH.  Failure to heed this will result is a very distressing and frustrating playing experience as past experience has shown.  If you don't like what you're seeing, please just walk away from the topic now.

 

 

List of major changes (not all, some minor changes I probably forgotten):

Fortress 1 - You cannot hide in the door whilst fighting the blue darknut.

Fortress 2 - The 1 (possibly 2 if you're really challenged) heart and wooden sword on ice vs 10 red darknut room has been added.  The room of 4 teleporting wizzrobes has been buffed to 5 teleporting wizzrobes.  You can no longer hide in the door whilst fighting 10 mummies.  The room of 10 gels has been nerfed so that rocks no longer fall.  Blue crab boss fight redesigned.

Fortress 3 - The 3 hearts and wooden sword vs 3 blue wizzrobes room has been added.  In the money gathering section, you may no longer gamble infinitely, reenter rooms nor hide in doorways.

Fortress 4 - Fire gleeok fight redesigned, plus no hookshot for spiked dodongo room.  Bat wizzrobe room nerfed so James can use his sword.  New superdarknut room.

Fortress 5 - Hookshot can only be acquired once you have the mirror shield to prevent stunning wizzrobes with it in fortress 6.  

Rafting/Training - Rewards reduced to a HCP not a full HC - so James will only have 14 hearts max for the whole game.

Fortress 6 - Buying health is now a lot more expensive.

Fortress 7 - Buying health is now a lot more expensive.  Gamble room added.

Fortress 8 - You can no longer bypass the first part of the patra room by going to the bottom left corner.  Health shop added.

Fortress 9 - Spiked dodongo room nerfed to 4 dodongos since only 14 heatlh max.

[strike]

James, some of your pictures remind me of a demo I made a while ago. A very challenging quest. It's operation righteous cowboy lightning on the demo database. Pm me if you try it or something.

All your changes look good, these seem like smart choices.

-Strike

Edited by strike, 10 January 2016 - 12:49 AM.

[James24]

LoH v1.1 added to the database.  Original LoH was written for the ZC 2.5 beta and had bugs when run on current ZC 2.5.  Just updated LoH so it should be working fine with current ZC 2.5

[Deedee]

I'm currently attempting to complete Insanity's Extreme without cheats. I'd have to say that both Dungeon Impossible and Insanity's Extreme are at least equal. DI I focused on combat, which is kinda more bearable, while Insanity one focuses more on enemy puzzles, with about 50% of it being RNG that screws you over.

http://www.twitch.tv/arceusplayer11/is my cannel, so you can catch it live when I do start. Depends on if I can figure out why OBS keeps crashing on me.

[James24]

Didn't you say you beat LoH:IE without modification a while back?  Or was that v1.0?  I'll definitely keep an eye on your channel.

 

Yes, there are enemy puzzles in LoH:IE, but I don't think they are a major part of the quest.  Just a quirk here and there to keep things interesting and fun.

 

RNG is an integral part of Zelda and if all enemies walked the same way every time, then combat would get very predictable and no fun at all and too easy.  If you extended that argument, one could argue that all Zelda quests are based on luck since every quest I know uses enemies which in turn use the RNG.  I like to think of challenge quests like that infamous game which I am a huge fan of - Candy Crush Saga.  Yes, there's luck but if you know the right strategy, then its only a matter of time before lady luck will shift in your favour and the game is yours.

 

By the way, if there are any CCS fans out there, I absolutely love the insanely hard levels - 1364 being my favourite  Something very motivating about levels being barely possible to complete.

[Gleeok]

I was at Costco the other day to get like 4 things, and when I get to the checkout all the lines were jam packed with tons of people with massive overflowing carts... I was like "damn this RNG."

I still haven't beaten IE yet James. My save file's getting a little dusty. DI is not really comparable to a full length LoH I don't think; vs. two random levels it's a toss up, but IE is pretty dang hard. IIRC I might be up to 80 deaths already.

[James24]

Your DI is pretty hard too Gleeok - I loved it.

 

Just watch Dimentio's videos.  Absolutely brutal.  Gotta say I admire your tenacity to persist.  You are slowing the game down artificially by using pause and the subscreen.  IMO that's kinda cheating - but its understandable I guess.  What do people think about slowing the game down artificially?

Edited by James24, 11 February 2016 - 06:17 AM.

[TheLegend_njf]

You are slowing the game down artificially by using pause and the subscreen.  IMO that's kinda cheating - but its understandable I guess.  What do people think about slowing the game down artificially?

 

If you've watched some of my IoR videos, you'll notice I've done this with a couple Isle of Rebirth bosses. Evan has the tendency to create attacks that's difficult to respond to. Many of these attacks are way faster than the average human reaction time which is estimated to be around 250 milliseconds which amount to 15 frames. According to what I was told by Moosh, Tartaros' attacks, only account for 10 frames reaction time which is 5 frames faster than the average human reaction time. 

 

I've actually tested my own personal reaction time, and I'm actually a few frames slower than average, which is probably surprising I've beaten a lot of the games I've beaten, but I just normally don't quit too soon, which probably explains that. But I'm aware of my limitations, and I have in the past artificially slowed a game down using subscreen pausing. 

 

Specifically for the Tartaros battle, I found myself pausing often to slow the game down when Tartaros would chase you and attack with spread. Other times I would when there was way too much chaos to interpret at a given time and I would sometimes pause just to relax for a moment. 

 

This can boil down to human limitation or unfair design. But since I get the feeling that you feel that there is no such thing as unfair design, you can probably just call it human limitation if you want to. 

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 11 February 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[Deedee]

(snip)

 

So, seeing how you dislike easy quests (getting bored, etc), why don't you try my Winter Expo Submission, "I Wanna Be The Superboss"? I've found it quite challenging throughout my playthroughs, and you youself can decide the difficulty by either heading straight into the dungeon (hard), or explore and getting everything else first (easy). It might not be LoH hard, but it should provide a challenge (hopefully).

[James24]

For the record, both LoH and LoH:IE can be beaten without any resorting to "cheap and lame" tactics, including artificially slowing down the game, reentering rooms to get higher value enemies, excessive gambling and hiding in the doorway and shooting sword beams when you aren't supposed to.  I've done it myself so I know its possible and Yloh's videos also show its possible to beat it without slowing the game down.  That's right, if you fight fairly winning is possible - though it might take a bit longer.

 

Also, I don't know if reaction time varies from human to human - so what you're saying might be true NJF.  It certainly could be the case that challenge quest players are born with abnormally low reaction times.  Evan could very possibly have a reaction time of 10 frames or less and when he creates his boss and tests it, 10 frames is what you'll get since he'll think "oh well, its possible so therefore its fair design".  I think it would be highly impractical to expect quest devs to factor into account what the average human's reaction time is given the limited resources that can be spent on any quest.  In any case, even if a challenge quest dev knows this, there's a lot of fun for a challenge quest player to react abnormally quickly and I don't think any challenge quest creator will nerf their quest to suit the average human because it'd take all the fun, fun for them that is.  Best you'll get is an "easy" mode where things are nerfed quite easily through use of a gold ring or enhanced powerups etc...

 

My personal opinion is that reaction time makes only a small bit of difference, the main factor is the ability to anticipate and prepare for attacks you know and factor this into your strategy.  You might lose a bit due to luck but with the right strategy victory is only a matter of time.

 

Dimentio - I'd love to take a look at your submission.  If I can't zero game the first part or so, I'll be even more interested

[Moosh]

Gotta say I admire your tenacity to persist.  You are slowing the game down artificially by using pause and the subscreen.  IMO that's kinda cheating - but its understandable I guess.  What do people think about slowing the game down artificially?

It's not my style, but I wouldn't call it cheating as it's something the quest allows you to do. If you didn't want this to be a thing, it shouldn't be too hard to write a global script that adds a delay between subscreen opening, but I don't feel like it's really necessary. Using F4 to advance frame by frame, however, is clearly cheating.

[DarkFlameSheep]

Edit:I deleted this post by several reasons.

Edited by DarkFlame Sheep, 17 August 2020 - 09:06 PM.

[Deedee]

For the record, both LoH and LoH:IE can be beaten without any resorting to "cheap and lame" tactics, including artificially slowing down the game, reentering rooms to get higher value enemies, excessive gambling and hiding in the doorway and shooting sword beams when you aren't supposed to.  I've done it myself so I know its possible and Yloh's videos also show its possible to beat it without slowing the game down.  That's right, if you fight fairly winning is possible - though it might take a bit longer.

 

Also, I don't know if reaction time varies from human to human - so what you're saying might be true NJF.  It certainly could be the case that challenge quest players are born with abnormally low reaction times.  Evan could very possibly have a reaction time of 10 frames or less and when he creates his boss and tests it, 10 frames is what you'll get since he'll think "oh well, its possible so therefore its fair design".  I think it would be highly impractical to expect quest devs to factor into account what the average human's reaction time is given the limited resources that can be spent on any quest.  In any case, even if a challenge quest dev knows this, there's a lot of fun for a challenge quest player to react abnormally quickly and I don't think any challenge quest creator will nerf their quest to suit the average human because it'd take all the fun, fun for them that is.  Best you'll get is an "easy" mode where things are nerfed quite easily through use of a gold ring or enhanced powerups etc...

 

My personal opinion is that reaction time makes only a small bit of difference, the main factor is the ability to anticipate and prepare for attacks you know and factor this into your strategy.  You might lose a bit due to luck but with the right strategy victory is only a matter of time.

 

Dimentio - I'd love to take a look at your submission.  If I can't zero game the first part or so, I'll be even more interested

 

My submission is located in the Winter Expo thread. There are a few bugs that I mention later on in the thread, one of which being a certain key-giving enemy being invincible to all but the dungeon item, and it being possible to make the game unwinnable if you spend your key on the lock block first instead of the dungeon item chest. It'll be fixed in the final version, but bugfixes are not allowed during the course of the contest, so  .

 

Also, the few times I slow the game down during LoH:IE, I karmically die immediately after. I now only use the technique if I want to get a "feel" for the area, like if I need practice. F4 Count: 3 (one to get through the bombchu room in lvl 1, died due to being too close to the enemy, another to get through the spike trap room in lvl 1 my second try, died to armos, and one to get through the armos room the first time, died to aquamentus), Subscreen Buffer Count = Countless (practicing the stalfos room (and winning), practicing the vire room (and dying; normal speed much better), and attempting to practice the spike trap room, only to find that the subscreen has a delay and isn't practical for succeeding, and then attempting it normally to succeed).