1641 replies to this topic

[Koh]

I'm saying that if they wanted multiple options, that should have been something that was introduced to the series a long time a go, starting with the second or at least 3rd game.  The BS Zelda games had an avatar choice, but they didn't carry that over to future Zelda games.  So it's pretty obvious that's not what they want.

[DCEnygma]

Because surely, there's no way that a developer could change their minds on something further down the line. Of course.

[Koh]

I think 19 years is enough decision time, don't you?

[DCEnygma]

I don't think there's a time limit as to when a change can be made. I'm not continuing this, but I will say that there's absolutely no harm in doing things differently in an effort to be more inclusive or to change the dynamics of a story that has been retold countless times. Nothing anyone says is going to convince me otherwise, because in no way will it have a negative impact on the Zelda games or universe as a whole.

[Moonbread]

One of the longest running webcomics, the Order of the Stick, recently introduced its first major LGBT character just the other day.  The community was ecstatic, full of people thanking the author immensely for representation, for making them feel like they belong, resulting in a record amount of comments on the comic over the course of a couple days.  The Zelda series is very popular among both men and women, and the latter deserve a spot in the light that isn't "gets kidnapped to be a prize for the hero."  So, psynergist, the reason to change this?  To be more inclusive.  I'd love to have a Link that was a different gender, or race, or had a different sexual orientation.  Being inclusive and representing other people who are often left out is a way for fiction and fantasy to help the real world move forward, otherwise it's just petty escapism.

[Koh]

That doesn't counter my point though.  You said that comic INTRODUCED a new character to be more inclusive.  That's fine.  They didn't just randomly change some character that's been established for decades, did they?  Zelda could do something similar; introduce whatever type of people to be more inclusive.  There's no reason to change Link, who's been established since the dawn of the series, to fit that role.

[LinktheMaster]

That doesn't counter my point though.  You said that comic INTRODUCED a new character to be more inclusive.  That's fine.  They didn't just randomly change some character that's been established for decades, did they?  Zelda could do something similar; introduce whatever type of people to be more inclusive.  There's no reason to change Link, who's been established since the dawn of the series, to fit that role.

I think one thing you forget is that we're not talking about one character.  We're talking about... 10 characters?  I dunno how many.  But they're all entirely different people.  They're not even reincarnates or anything like that.  They're entirely different people who embody the same role.

[Koh]

If you're talking about the descendants versus ancestors thing, and saying that either could've been the other gender, like Link having a daughter named...Tink?  while Princess Zelda has a son named...Zol?  Just to fill the genderbender role, that'd be a logical route, since these are new people.  However, just changing the genders isn't enough, with the storytelling nature of Zelda as it is now.  Are you just going to swap every use of Princess Zelda to Prince Zol, and Hero Link to Heroine Tink, and have it so Heroine Tink is off to rescue Prince Zol from the evil Ganondina?  At that point, it seems like a cliche Feminist game, where everything is just swapped around just because girl power.

 

Most of us here have no problem playing as a female avatar, but there should be a reason for this.  Look at Tomb Raider.  It isn't about role reversal, and having a woman save men, it's just about a strong female archaeologist, who stops people using ancient artifacts in the wrong way.  If Zelda adopts a female avatar, it'd need to do something in this kind of vain, rather than "Now, a female's rescuing a male, because girl power!"  Have Heroine Tink stop the revival of Ganon(dina) by collecting legendary trinkets.  Have her stop a new threat.  But don't just make it a genderbender game.

Edited by Koh, 28 July 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[NoeL]

Who said anything about genderbending the entire cast?

Like, suddenly, Mario is a black French man with a crazy stache, just because variety. That's no valid reason to do such a thing to what has clearly been defined for like, ever.

Like LTM said, changing Mario and changing Link are completely different things. Mario is a single, distinct character. Link is an archetype, and it's already been revealed that Zelda U Link is a new character, like how there are already many different characters all named Link that fill the hero role in the series. Changing Mario is changing an established character. Changing Link is creating a new character to carry on the hero role, like they've done with almost every game in the series (although besides Wind Waker I'd hardly call them "characters").

Link has also been clearly defined as wearing a green tunic and night cap - two things completely absent from the teaser shown. I haven't heard you crying foul about that potential change yet.

Now, as to the question of whether or not Link should be represented as a girl, it would depend on the reasons. Should Link be a black transgender lesbian solely for the sake of inclusivity? No, I don't think so. Unless the story calls for it they should do as they've done in the past and stay silent on Link's gender/sexual orientation (you could argue he's been presented as a straight male but nothing's ever been explicit. Never seen him kiss or show obviously romantic attraction to anyone). As for being black, as long as they set it in a time where Hyrule has become multicultural there's nothing wrong with it, but it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have a single black kid amongst a sea of whities. I'd rather them stick with their artistic vision than bend things for the sake of shoehorning in underrepresented demographics, but if their artistic vision just happened to include a black transgender lesbian then go for it.

[Shane]

(you could argue he's been presented as a straight male but nothing's ever been explicit. Never seen him kiss or show obviously romantic attraction to anyone). 

Adventure of Link, Oracle series and Skyward Sword to name a few.

 

One could argue the first two shown Link being kissed by Zelda, and that really doesn't define Link's attractions. But you cannot deny Link had feelings for Zelda in Skyward Sword, I felt they may have even kissed when in this cutscene, everything went white and there was a long pause before they started talking again.

 

edit: I think a lot of people took my previous post to heart and misinterpreted it. I asked what was the point of changing Link's gender. Variety? Sure. But I feel like we've got enough variety on this Link already. Link having emotions wasn't to add variety, it was to improve him as a character. Changing Link's gender wouldn't be an improvement, just a change. A change that just feels redundant, starting more gender discussions in the Zelda communities all across the internet. And perhaps we'll see some offensive remarks.

 

Girl characters in the Zelda series that are very memorable, amazing, and helpful to our hero in need of support? I'll list a few on the top of my head right now. We have Fi, Midna, Navi, Lana, Impa, Zelda (in some cases), Anjean, Farore, Din, Nayru, Ruto, Nabooru, the Great Fairies. I could go on. Hell, we have a lot of female characters that help our hero than male characters! We needed to save male sages in ALBW, so it's not just "Oh hey, we need a female character to save.". Hell, you don't just save Zelda, you save an entire kingdom. No, wait, entire worlds full of different people of all kinds, so everyone is a "damsel in distress". How do females not feel included? Because you can't control them? Well then, say hello to Hyrule Warriors.

 

Also to counter the "different Link" argument. Should I mention that these "different Links" possess the spirit of the "hero"? It kinda screams it right there that Link will always stick to tradition and be male.

 

At the end of the day, I wouldn't mind a female Link. But begging for one and making this the next "I want MM3D" is just silly. Especially when it feels more redundant in all honesty. 

Edited by Shane, 29 July 2014 - 02:43 AM.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

It's because Z1 Link was best Link Migo~ Simple design, simple purpose :3.

 

But really, genderbending only really works if it serves an actual purpose, other than "Just because I can."  If there was a gender choice since the beginning, or at least early in the series, like with Pokemon (starting with Crystal), then it's clear that the character is a mere avatar of the player, and having the two gender options let's them represent themselves better.  But if there isn't, it's clear the character has an intended role, and just randomly switching the race or gender of a character, just for the lols, is extremely silly.  Like, suddenly, Mario is a black French man with a crazy stache, just because variety.  That's no valid reason to do such a thing to what has clearly been defined for like, ever.

The what in the who? I don't agree with your reasoning.

 

I look at it this way: not too long ago, Marvel killed of Peter Parker AKA Spider-Man in one of their series. An african american kid named Miles Morales then becomes Spider-Man, and people are racist because you don't just change the race of a character like that. But you know what? I think you can. And it's completely fine.

 

To me the general rule is that as long as the character's essential elements remain, you can do whatever you want with them. Changing Mario's nationality from italian to french actually does take away something from his character, because he's a stereotype, the italian plumber. Link is a stereotype as well, but that has nothing to do with either sex or skin color. Nintendo could change both of those without actually altering the character of Link in any major way.

 

And if you really think changing the sex and or skin color of a character in a fictional story is a big deal, then... well, I just don't agree with your views then I guess.

[Shane]

[edited out] dumb argument is dumb [/edited out]

Will I be upset over a female Link? Of course not. But if it turns out this Link is also male, we shouldn't make a big deal. Nintendo isn't doing this to exclude anyone. Nintendo's never know to show dislike towards any group of people.

Edited by Shane, 29 July 2014 - 03:25 AM.

[The Satellite]

That depends on your definition of a hero. Some places don't even use gender to define it, except perhaps when it refers to "the chief male character in a story, play, movie, etc." And we can easily just change the word to heroin.
 

 
Er, I mean heroine. 
 
That said, it's honestly kind of a moot issue until we hear some more word on this new Link of ours, whether or not he is actually a female character, or if perhaps the new game will give us some ability to choose his gender or his appearance or whatnot. Until then, it's kind of pointless to debate about whether or not he should be a different gender, race, etc. All it really does is derail the thread, and I feel like it's gone down a similar route before, so for now I think we should just leave the issue alone, as presently this isn't really the place for it.

[Koh]

Your picture is broken; what was it supposed to be?

 

As for why no one really made a big deal about his outfit, it's been commonplace for him to start in whatever normal or village attire before acquiring the iconic green tunic and hat.  Which makes me wonder...if this is Link, how's that going to work with dat ponytail.  That's going to be a lot of floppiness on his head when he jumps and stuff.

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

Your picture is broken; what was it supposed to be?

 

As for why no one really made a big deal about his outfit, it's been commonplace for him to start in whatever normal or village attire before acquiring the iconic green tunic and hat.  Which makes me wonder...if this is Link, how's that going to work with dat ponytail.  That's going to be a lot of floppiness on his head when he jumps and stuff.

What a weird thing to mention in a thread about a game that we so far know very little about. XD