202 replies to this topic

[TheOnlyOne]

Purple orbs are triggered by reflected magic.

[skatz25]

I got to the area where I need the 4 keys from the lost halls, I finished the 4 areas and received four keys.  After entering the last door with the keys, I get to what seems like a maze where the screen is black and the enemies are invisable.  Did I miss doing something?

Edited by skatz25, 08 February 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[TheOnlyOne]

If you never finished the graveyard, you missed something. However, you can tell you're making progress through the maze since it gets darker and darker. Getting to the end gives some good hints for the graveyard.

[outtaker]

Hey, I on the 2nd floor and just got the candle but cant burn the bushes. Does anyone know how to get around them? Thanks

[TheOnlyOne]

In the middle of the bottom of the floor there is a group of trees that you have to burn. Doing so kills all the bushes on the floor.

[Yloh]

I started playing this game this last week. I'm really enjoying it.

 

Current progress: Just entered Floor 9. Oh my ... this different.

[Yloh]

I just completed this game with the good ending. I can't really put into words what my thoughts are. You really showed what you can do without scripting. I am impressed. This quest has it all.

 

Great music selection

Interesting bosses

Challenging bosses

Cleaver puzzles

Some unique level gimmicks

Very engaging

Good map design

You actually have to use all of your tools

 

There are some negatives though.

 

Spoiler

I felt the old man was very cheap. Having damage combos just appear without warning is not my favorite thing to deal with.

 

LOL at the location of the map on Floor 10. It took me way to long than I would care to admit to figure out its location. I do understand why you put the map in a difficult to find spot. It really makes Floor 10 a much easier dungeon. Too bad I only needed two keys left by the time I found it. To make things even better, I could potentially get the map with in the couple of minutes of the dungeon. LOL

 

Having shooting statues with puzzles really bugs me. I honestly paused the game at those times.

 

I have mixed feelings about the graveyard puzzles and when you get better hints. I understand that you can get more concrete info at the top of the tower, but I really wanted to know what was with that area. It was hard for me to leave that area behind and continue on to Floor 10. The old lady's hint to open the entrance was, I felt, was misleading.

 

Overall, my qualms about this quest did not hinder my overall experience of this quest. I doubt anybody can crate a quest where a person agrees 100% with the creator's decisions.

 

On a side note, I am really interested in knowing how you accomplished what you did in your quest. I think I have an idea, but I may be way off.

 

Great job TheOnlyOne on a top level quest. Your seven years of effort really made this quest top quality.

[TheOnlyOne]

I'm glad you enjoyed the quest. =)

 

As to how I did things, you'll need to ask much more specific questions. =p There are many, many, many wild ZC tricks in this quest.

[Air Luigi]

So, are there hopes for a HARDCORE edition? >.> I can't throw this quest from my mind xD

[Yloh]

If you are willing to tell me what you did, I would love to hear about how you have done some of the things I list below. I will tell you how I think you did your zquest tricks. I never learned how to use 2.10 as I started out on 2.50, so I might say some things that only apply to version 2.50. What I list below contains spoilers.

 

Spoiler

 

You had multiple parts where you had to use multiple keys in one room. Not only that, but you had to put those keys in a certain order. I think you used a lot of combos for this. The first key block was just a normal lock block combo, but the next combo was a normal combo that looked like a key block instead of the combo that looks like the key block is down. The other key blocks where all lock block copycat combos. Key block two turned into a normal lock block combo, while key block three - six all turned into lock block copycat combos. When key block two was used: that turned into a normal solid combo, key block three turned into a normal key block combo, and key blocks four - six turned into key block copycat combos. This requires you to use quite a lot of combos. When key block six was used, you had the ground turn into a warp. The ground was also a key block copycat that turned into key block copycat combos until the final key was used. When the ground turned into a warp you warped to a mini boss type room. Also, when you where outside of the six key rooms, you put a warp before entering the room. You could tell because you got rid of Link's map view when you entered these warps. When you defeated the mini boss, that activated a secret combo that used a screen state carry over to change the warp into a normal combo. Either that, or you have the ground Link is walking on in the Mini Boss room be secret steps permanent with a screen state carry over to change the warp outside into a normal combo.

 

Floor 4 and 8 intrigue me because I don't think I have a good idea on how you did this. Both floors require to find objectives in multiple locations before being allowed to proceed to the next floor. In floor 4, you collected golden feathers. In floor 8, you destroyed pillars. I think you used multiple flags on the warps in the rooms before the stairs. I know you can stack flags on a single space because you can initially equip a combo with a flag automatically. For floor four, that would mean you needed at least five warp A combos each with a different flag on them and one combo that was warp B. When you got a golden feather, there is a secret step permanent in the room with the golden feather. That room uses a screen state carry over to the room before the stairs. Because you have five rooms, each with a screen state carry over to one room, you are allowed to have tiered secrets in one room. Every time a feather is activated, you change the warp A with flag 16 to warp A with flag 17. This goes on until you get the final golden feather. When that happens, warp A with flag 19 will turn into warp b with flag 20. After talking and proceeding to floor five, you walk on a secret step permanent combo with a screen state carry over to change warp b into a normal combo. That is why the screen never gets rid of my hub menu after my objective is cleared. There is no warp to warp me into a room where my hub is disabled. I suspect something similar was done with floor 8.

 

In floor 9, you used a lot of LOADING screens. Zelda classic never needs to load, so I suspect those screens are really Link on convertor belts going down into warps. By using the method I stated above, you could have Link do all sorts of cool trading like quests with out the help of scripts. It was all in the loading screens.

 

I don't think FFCs existed in version 2.10, but you made some animations that look like FFCs. From the beginning of the quest to the final boss battle. Let me use the lightning attack that the final boss uses whiles fighting his final form. That lightning flies across the screen so smoothly. It really looks like a FFC. I suspect you used a ton of animation frames for this. Probably each frame was animated pixel by pixel and used quick animation speed. There was also a lot of combing cycling going on as well. You had it set up in a way that made everything look so smooth, but I noticed the lightning always had the same pattern. 

 

Also for the final form, while falling down, you used a lot of timed warps. If you didn't defeat one part quickly enough it warped you to a lower level automatically. With a lot of timed warps and secret warp combos, you where able to make a timed battle with the final boss. I wasn't very observant of the pattern of this boss, but I suspect timed warps and secret warp combos. Depending on how quickly you defeated one part determined how far you have fallen based on timed warps. 

 

I have no clue how to make a block travel with you through a warp, but I suspect you have to push it right while the under combo being a warp. On the same note, the mini game on floor nine required you to push blocks in a specific spot. When time ran out, the block turned into a warp. I suspect you warped into a room with multiple warps. Only one warp warped you to the next area, and that is the warp in the location that you needed to push the block to. 

 

 

That is a lot. Was I right on any of these, or at least close?

Edited by Yloh, 17 February 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[TheOnlyOne]

So to start off, 2.10 does not have screen-state carry-over (I should also note that there was only one tile warp and one side warp per screen, not four.) Instead I had to use what is (was?) known as “boss flags.” In screen’s enemy flags, there is a flag for “Dungeon Boss.” What this originally was used for (unsurprisingly) is for boss rooms, and when it is checked, once all enemies in the room die, no enemies ever return. However, this is not remembered by ZC on a room by room basis, but rather on a level by level basis (the level number you set in the DMap.) What this means is, if you have two screens in the same level with “Dungeon Boss” checked, if you kill all the enemies in one of the rooms, the enemies in the other room will also mysteriously disappear.

 

This can be used in a clever way to imitate what you know as screen-state carry over. For example, say you have a room A with a switch that should lower blocks in room B. Hitting the switch in room A can warp you briefly to a room with no enemies, but with “Dungeon Boss” checked. This sets the boss flag for this level so that any room with “Dungeon Boss” checked will no longer have any enemies. Now in room B, you put an unkillable invisible enemy (the enemy “Trigger” is specifically for this purpose) and have the lowering blocks a result of “Enemy->Secret.” Checking “Dungeon Boss” in room B now makes it so that the Trigger enemy actually does die after hitting the switch, and the secrets are activated.

 

This is how I did basically every one-time secret in the quest, including floors 4 and 8, and the trade quests on floor 9. The “loading” screens are basically what you imagine – there is a conveyer leading off the bottom with a warp tile in the way, there is a Trigger enemy, “Dungeon Boss” is checked, and if the enemy lives, the tile takes you using the tile warp, if the enemy dies, the secret removes the warp and you take the screen’s side warp instead. There are many cases where multiple “loading” screens are back-to-back (for example, an npc you give an item to usually has three sets of dialogue: asking for the item, giving the item, thanking you for the item if you talk to them later. This requires two “loading” screens, first checking if you have the item, second checking if you’ve given it already.)

 

As for floors 4, 8, and 10 in particular where you must gather items/break pillars and must have all of them, instead of “loading” screens, there is an empty looking room, usually with a winding path. Take floor 8 for example, the room before the stairs has a winding path from south to north. There are actually nine duplicate rooms here. The first has a boss-flag checking for one of the pillars, and if you have it broken, a tile close to the south door turns into a warp, which takes you to a duplicate looking room, but this one has a boss-flag checking for a different pillar, and a tile further into the room warps you to another duplicate room, and so on. All rooms except the last take you to the room with an uncrossable gap, but the last takes you to the room leading to floor 9. That is, if you fail any of the boss-flag checks, you are not warped to the next duplicate screen, and thus cannot reach floor 9.

 

This is close to what you suggested, but with boss flags instead of screen-state carry-over, and with multiple rooms instead of tiered secrets. 2.10 also did not have inherent flags as you suggested, but tiered secrets were still possible by setting the flag on the Secret Combo (ctrl-click.) However, I do not believe that screen-state carry-over works with tiered secrets anyway; it’s always only the first secret that is activated (and this is of course the case with Enemy->Secret as well.) This is why you need multiple duplicate rooms.

 

The multikey rooms are also done with duplicate rooms. Your idea is mostly correct – only one key block is actually a lock-block combo, the others are just solid, and the floor is a lock copy-cat that changes into warps. However, instead of changing blocks into new lock-blocks, each lock warps to a new screen where the next block is the real lock-block combo. The reason this is necessary is because ZC cannot remember how many keys have been used per screen; it only knows if a key has been used. What this means is that using what I call a “tiered lock-block” strategy like you suggested, if you, say, used 3 out of 5 keys, left the room and came back, it would be as if you only used the first key, and 2 keys would be wasted forever.

 

As for boss attack animations, you are exactly correct. 2.10 did not have freeform combos. All the attacks were done using a disgusting amount of animation and combo-cycling.

 

Blocks moving with you across warps is a result of checking screen flag “Full Screen Warp” (I believe it is now called “Sprites Carry Over In Warps.”) In the mini-game, the blue warp direct warps you to a black screen with a warp tile on the correct spot which warps to the next puzzle, and a very quick timed warp sends you to redo the puzzle if you don’t hit that warp.

 

As for the final phase of the final boss, I have a hard enough time explaining it to myself (numerous times while working on the boss I almost convinced myself the whole process simply didn’t actually even work, and it was some ZC miracle that things actually happened.) I can say that when you are on the offensive, it is not timed warps that are keeping track of your time. If they were timed warps, each screen would have a separate timer (and you could in theory beat the boss without falling if you did each room fast enough.) But actually it is the total amount of time since you begin attacking, and after long enough you are sent to play defense, which could happen on any screen. In order to make a global timer in 2.10, I had to do some really jenky combo-cycling that I really don’t think it’s worth going into. In 2.5 this kind of effect could be achieved with a very simple script, or possibly with a carry-over FFC.

[Maleboocado]

I'm currently at the end of floor 4. I have all the golden leaves except the one who is in the room at the left of where you find the map. I'm trying using the flute and bombs (yeah there hasn't been bombable walls yet but nevertheless I tried everything) to cross the invisible wall but it's unwalkable, no matter what I do. I'm playing in 2.50.1, if that helps.

Edited by Maleboocado, 17 March 2015 - 04:46 PM.

[TheOnlyOne]

The way into that room is from the south, not the east.

[Maleboocado]

Oh I see what you did there.
Thanks.
BTW, pretty good quest so far.

[Maleboocado]

EDIT: Nevermind, there was a hidden path I didn't see until now.

Edited by Maleboocado, 21 March 2015 - 01:32 AM.