494 replies to this topic

[Eddard McHorn Van-Schnuder]

I love Dynasty Warriors so I'm really looking forward to this.

Regarding the hawt bewbs... can people just cool their tits for a second (no pun intended)? I know the Warriors games tend to appeal to an older crowd but given it's a Zelda tie-in I agree the character design isn't really appropriate, but the whole "This is degrading to women!" thing is a bit much. There's nothing inherently wrong with the design, as there's a time and a place for everything (to be clear though, I don't think that time and place is this game), but it's not degrading to have a sexualised character in a game. I'm sure it'll turn some people off, but most people - and even most girls - won't have a problem with it, and will probably even enjoy it. The issue with sexism in gaming is how unbalanced the representation is: the sexualised:non-sexualised ratio is much higher among female characters, as well as the lack of female protagonists (or indeed non-good-looking-brown-haired-early-30s-white-male protagonists). The vile temptress archetype isn't degrading, it's just unoriginal. And they were perfectly conservative with Impas's design.

I wasn't trying to make it sound like I think Hyrule Warriors is a big part of this whole issue - I honestly don't believe that at all. I am not the guy who usually brings up the problem of sexism, I don't know enough about the subject to really have something to say about it in an intellectual debate, nor have I ever really felt the issue on my own skin. Obviously.

 

My problem with this however, is simply that it's so closely tied to Zelda. I will admit that considering the fact that the issue itself is incredibly minor in this case, there is some irrationality involved here on my end, but I think you know what I mean. I'm not offended by boobies, at all, and if I was interested in Hyrule Warriors to begin with, this wouldn't throw me off. I said earlier that some might find it questionable, but assuming that this is one character and not 20, then I guess that's not going to be a problem either. As multiple people have already pointed out, it's not like this game is trying to present an overly sexualised cast, and my issue with it boils down to that one screenshot of that one character.

 

So I agree, this is not as big of an issue at all like I made it out to be. I will say though, that I was aiming at the issue of sexism in gaming in general, more so than Hyrule Warriors itself. Perhaps that would have been a better fit in a topic specifically about the issue.

[The Satellite]

They're at least double D's.

I blame you for this one:


 

Also it's been apparently confirmed that it is Cia, not Shia.

Well that ruins my Shia Labeouf jokes:

[NoeL]

So I agree, this is not as big of an issue at all like I made it out to be. I will say though, that I was aiming at the issue of sexism in gaming in general, more so than Hyrule Warriors itself. Perhaps that would have been a better fit in a topic specifically about the issue.

Fair enough. I wonder how a topic like that would fly here... on the one hand it's a mature topic so would be best to have it in the Mature Discussion subforum, but on the other hand it's an important issue that youngsters should be aware of... but maybe when they're a bit older? I guess MD is the best place for it. Would be curious to see if there's any difference of opinion here.

[Avaro]

Looks like this game is gonna be much better than Link's Crossbow Training. I would get it if I had the console. Too bad I don't want the console.

[TheLegend_njf]

I love Dynasty Warriors so I'm really looking forward to this.

Regarding the hawt bewbs... can people just cool their tits for a second (no pun intended)? I know the Warriors games tend to appeal to an older crowd but given it's a Zelda tie-in I agree the character design isn't really appropriate, but the whole "This is degrading to women!" thing is a bit much. There's nothing inherently wrong with the design, as there's a time and a place for everything (to be clear though, I don't think that time and place is this game), but it's not degrading to have a sexualised character in a game. I'm sure it'll turn some people off, but most people - and even most girls - won't have a problem with it, and will probably even enjoy it. The issue with sexism in gaming is how unbalanced the representation is: the sexualised:non-sexualised ratio is much higher among female characters, as well as the lack of female protagonists (or indeed non-good-looking-brown-haired-early-30s-white-male protagonists). The vile temptress archetype isn't degrading, it's just unoriginal. And they were perfectly conservative with Impas's design.

 

I didn't start the debate to say that I was offended or even turned on by it.

 

I am a mature male who can appreciate the quality of the artwork that is rendered into these characters..... ah hem.... I mean, I like big boobs and I cannot lie!

 

All jokes aside though, I am merely just pointing out Team Ninja's dedication to making all their female characters this way, until of course I saw images of Impa and it goes to show that the company can break out of it's norm and create a smaller chested gal. lol

 

Team Ninja, you get the "smaller size" award for trying something different.

[Moonbread]

Just saying, if you shoot someone, you don't get praised for not shooting someone else.  Don't give Team Ninja credit for something they should be doing, while at the same time, when they're also doing something they shouldn't be that completely nullifies it.  A bit of an extreme example, but making Impa with a less sexually charged body hasn't prevented various communities from making plenty of rape/slut jokes about Cia.  I'd consider Team Ninja to be breaking out of their norm when they start getting away from it as a whole.  Even just having one character (and that's ignoring their history of having games that have nothing but masturbation material) is still showing exactly what they're doing.  If they were trying to portray women's bodies in a way of saying, "Hey, regardless of how they look, they should be respected," this would be a totally different ball-game.  But they sure aren't.

 

Nobody should be freaking out about the boobage character, it's just one character, as oppose to every other character that has been revealed so far. Yes, it's slightly sexist to make a character like this, but this is Team Ninja, we're talking about, the guys who made just about every single Dead or Alive girl.

 

---

 

In other words, yes, we get it, there's a slight amount of sexism going on, but it's only one single character that has it at the moment, the only reason to bring it back up at any time is if they announce another character with the same problem as Shia.

 

So it's just one character, but in the next sentence, you completely contradict yourself by saying there's a plethora of girls just like this in other games they made? So you're basically admitting to completely ignoring everything they've done before.

 

And in the next part of your post, you claim the only reason to bring it back up is if they do it again?  How many times do they have to do this before it's actually a problem to you?  Because again, Dead or Alive games.

 

Yes, it's somewhat strange, but after about an hour, I got used to the fact that there's a lady with huge boobs in my upcoming Zelda game.

 

Yes, you got used to it- primarily because you're a guy. It is ridiculously unfair of you, as a guy, to try to write off something that's sexist against women! Of course you don't think it's a big deal, and of course you can move on from it, because it doesn't affect you or your gender at all!  But meanwhile, I'm over here and incredibly uncomfortable with why Team Ninja is doing this, and the horrible things people are saying, because I'm in the line of fire.  I get affected by the repercussions.

 

Really, what I'm trying to say is, this whole sexism thing is something you're freaking way too much about, and should probably be discussed in a different topic, because we saw it, discussed it a little bit, and went on to the other features of the game, and you keep derailing the topic by bringing it back up again, after we had already finished the discussion.

 

If someone makes a racist comment, should I, as a white person, write it off by saying, "Well, it's only slightly racist, so let's just ignore it. If it happens again, we can maybe bring it back up, even though they have a history of making a lot of racist comments." Do you see how awful that would be of me?

 

Each person's privilege makes things seem like less of a big deal to them, so empathy is incredibly important. Even if you can't entirely understand the why, that shouldn't matter—because the abuse and mistreatment is not about you.

 

Also, just because you're tired of talking about it doesn't mean it's derailing the topic. Hell, I'm tired of talking about it too, but I feel the need to because it's a problem, and one that targets me and my gender.  You can keep talking about what aspect of Hyrule Warriors you'd like to talk about, whether it's gameplay or graphics or whatever- it's a forum thread, you're not forced to stick to one specific thing.  This is the one that I want to talk about, though, and trying to deny that because you're tired of it isn't fair.

[Koh]

What I don't understand is how people are correlating virtual boobs with real boobs, claiming sexism.  How does a melon-racked video game character have anything to say about a real life woman?  The most they should say is that whoever the creator of the character is likes gargantuan cups.  What does their attractions have to do with the female gender as a whole?  That'd be like if a woman decided to make a guy character with abnormally large muscles and an oversized 6 pack, because that's what she likes to see, and people say that's sexist.  How in the world is that sexist?  At most, it is considered objectification and pandering, neither of which is sexism.

Edited by Koh, 25 May 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[Demonlink]

I think it's time for my opinion. HAS HUGE BUNKERS!  :tard:

 

All jokes aside as well. Why is this a problem now when all of us Zelda fans have seen characters from the series who too have well, oversized breasts? Come on, Telma, Veran, Impa from the oracle series??? It's that something that I don't understand... We have had these characters and nobody made such comments on their cups. As for the forum itself, it may be getting out of hand, but I'll try to stick with it. 

 

I like the idea of an action packed Zelda game, be it official or not, it's something all of us fans have been wanting to see for a very long time. I have seen the teaser trailer that's now ages old, and hell, I like it. I have never played a Dynasty Warriors game in my life, but from this you could say I get an idea. Another thing I'm afraid of this is what I mentioned, that it may depend to much on it's image rather than gameplay. I read a comment the other day from ZeldaInformer and this guy claims that "Not all that glitters is gold" 

 

He had this image of a premiere screenshot of DW7 I think compared to the actual gameplay. Well, it sucked, and that's what I hope HW won't do, suck. Believe me, if people get all hyped and buy a Wii U just to play this and get disappointed, well, expect to see a lot of angry gamers around burning their WIi U XD. 

 

I myself would prefer to wait for reviews, then I could decide if I want to get it or not

[LinktheMaster]

What I don't understand is how people are correlating virtual boobs with real boobs, claiming sexism.  How does a melon-racked video game character have anything to say about a real life woman?  The most they should say is that whoever the creator of the character is likes gargantuan cups.  What does their attractions have to do with the female gender as a whole?  That'd be like if a woman decided to make a guy character with abnormally large muscles and an oversized 6 pack, because that's what she likes to see, and people say that's sexist.  How in the world is that sexist?  At most, it is considered objectification and pandering, neither of which is sexism.

Sexism doesn't mean discriminating against a sex in its strictest definition.  It just means that anything that targeting one specific gender.

 

Basically, it's like this.  Let's say the game has scantily clad women with big boobs... but also had super muscular guys with barely any clothes too.  This would all be objectification and pandering, but it would be to both sides.  So it's not really sexist.  However, based off of what we've seen of both genders shown in Hyrule Warriors, the only objectification has been towards a female for the male audience.  Since it's one-sided, it makes it sexist.

 

Granted, I don't think the fix should be add half naked guys everywhere. I'd prefer there not being any on either side.

[Jubbz]

And here we go, Social Justice in a video game thread...

 

Anyway! I can't believe that Shia's design has become an issue, but hey, I'm not gonna get told to check my privilege just for saying this, right? Right?

 

I sure hope not.

 

Anywho, yeah. It's just a character. And yes, Team Ninja's got a bad rep for doing this. But hey, here's an option: Deal with it. We've dealt with it before, how else do you think they still make money? Hell, ANY company that decided to implement even a LITTLE fan service into their games that made a little money despite the backlash, was because people decided to deal with it... but oh wait, this is the internet!

 

On the other hand, you can like, not buy the game. If people are really THAT against it, don't buy the game. The backlash has to be accompanied by abysmal sales. It'll send a message that they should never do this again. Never. But hey, good luck actually getting people to actually care about such a small thing.

 

I hate declaring sexism for every little instance of fanservice in video games though, because if you ask me, it's just plain stupid to even care. People say don't take video games seriously, but here we are, doing just that by turning this into a social justice issue.

 

And that's my opinion on this matter.

Edited by Jubbz, 25 May 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[Koh]

Sexism doesn't mean discriminating against a sex in its strictest definition.  It just means that anything that targeting one specific gender.

 

Basically, it's like this.  Let's say the game has scantily clad women with big boobs... but also had super muscular guys with barely any clothes too.  This would all be objectification and pandering, but it would be to both sides.  So it's not really sexist.  However, based off of what we've seen of both genders shown in Hyrule Warriors, the only objectification has been towards a female for the male audience.  Since it's one-sided, it makes it sexist.

 

Granted, I don't think the fix should be add half naked guys everywhere. I'd prefer there not being any on either side.

I'm sure if they did though, they'd get more sales from the female gamers interested in those kind of guys.  That's all I'm saying it boils down to though; not some sort of overlapping message against women or men as a whole, but that there's a large audience who enjoy seeing these kinds of character designs.

Edited by Koh, 25 May 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[Moosh]

@Scoot: I feel like your heart is in the right place here, but you're lashing out at all the wrong people. Team Ninja, as far as I know, has no horrible sexist agenda. The reason behind all the fanservice in their female character designs is cold, heartless statistics. Gamers are still a predominantly male demographic and so they appeal to us with exaggerated female characters. Team Ninja isn't the problem, and if we cut down one Team Ninja, five more will grow in its place. If you want to change this you need to either take out the root of the problem or change the statistics. I personally believe one will eventually lead to the other. So just keep playing video games, do your part to tip the scales of the statistics monster, don't support the companies you don't approve of with your wallet, and above all remember that there is no need to be upset. *Lawnmower flies away*

 

If we all do our part to change society through nonviolent, non-confrontational means, maybe one day we can have just as many Cho Anikis as we do Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyballs and then we can all feel equally uncomfortable together.

[TheLegend_njf]

And here we go, Social Justice in a video game thread...

 

Anyway! I can't believe that Shia's design has become an issue, but hey, I'm not gonna get told to check my privilege just for saying this, right? Right?

 

I sure hope not.

 

Anywho, yeah. It's just a character. And yes, Team Ninja's got a bad rep for doing this. But hey, here's an option: Deal with it. We've dealt with it before, how else do you think they still make money? Hell, ANY company that decided to implement even a LITTLE fan service into their games that made a little money despite the backlash, was because people decided to deal with it... but oh wait, this is the internet!

 

On the other hand, you can like, not buy the game. If people are really THAT against it, don't buy the game. The backlash has to be accompanied by abysmal sales. It'll send a message that they should never do this again. Never. But hey, good luck actually getting people to actually care about such a small thing.

 

I hate declaring sexism for every little instance of fanservice in video games though, because if you ask me, it's just plain stupid to even care. People say don't take video games seriously, but here we are, doing just that by turning this into a social justice issue.

 

And that's my opinion on this matter.

 

Lol! Dude, while I respect everything you just said...

 

This is the internet...

 

It's unfortunately going in deaf ears. While your answer is probably the most reasonable answer, the internet is not quite that reasonable (or rational for that matter).

 

This will be an issue of debate, not just here, but in many Zelda sites I would imagine. 

On another note, Team Ninja also has no sense of character diversity. The volvagia character reminds me just like this guy from Ninja Gaiden 2:

 

(I hope this image doesn't post too large on the forums).

 

Either way, there really ain't much creativity going on from Team Ninja's part in my opinion. 

 

 

The real debate here is that this company creates a design from a very limited perspective, and they seem to carry the same approach into every project they make. They took this approach into Metroid Other M, same type of females, same type of males, same type of story, same type of cutscenes, same type of everything that Team Ninja is known for.

 

So if you don't like Other M, there may be a chance you might not like Hyrule Warriors. But I say that as a speculation, and not a "this is an absolute fact" kinda opinion. I really don't know what people will think of Hyrule Warriors. lol

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 25 May 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[NoeL]

Yes, you got used to it- primarily because you're a guy. It is ridiculously unfair of you, as a guy, to try to write off something that's sexist against women! Of course you don't think it's a big deal, and of course you can move on from it, because it doesn't affect you or your gender at all!  But meanwhile, I'm over here and incredibly uncomfortable with why Team Ninja is doing this, and the horrible things people are saying, because I'm in the line of fire.  I get affected by the repercussions.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but you getting uncomfortable around boobs is a problem with you and your lack of maturity, not with the way games portray women (don't get me wrong though, there's still a huge problem there, but it's not the problem you're having).

Take a look at Ghirahim. Putting aside the intentions of the designers, he's a very sexual character and isn't scared to show it, and he's male. I'm sure there were people that were uncomfortable with how he manhandled Link but that's not a problem with the character, it's just people being too immature to handle sexuality in their games.

Now, I recognise that both characters were designed for straight males: Cia's sexulity is designed to titillate, Ghiraim's was designed to unsettle, but to claim this is "sexist" is just wrong. I'm not saying Cia's portrayal isn't sexist - it may very well be - but having a character with her tits out isn't inherently sexist, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

All jokes aside as well. Why is this a problem now when all of us Zelda fans have seen characters from the series who too have well, oversized breasts? Come on, Telma, Veran, Impa from the oracle series??? It's that something that I don't understand... We have had these characters and nobody made such comments on their cups.

Telma's look was designed around her character rather than to appeal to boys, and Impa's boobs were to make her look motherly rather than sexual. Veran is very much in the same boat as Cia though, where she's only sexy to titillate the audience. The main reason no one made a fuss back then is because they didn't know they could. Nobody had made them think about the pervasiveness of female sexualisation in games, so even if they were like "I don't really like that" it didn't occur to them that they could campaign for change.
 

And here we go, Social Justice in a video game thread...

And here we go, someone using "social justice" as derogatory term - as if having social justice is a bad thing.
 

But hey, here's an option: Deal with it.

Yeah, just like how those blacks should have "dealt with" segregation, and how those women should have "dealt with" not being allowed to vote. Seriously dude, if someone is expressing a problem and rather than hear them out your only response is that they should "deal with it"... you're part of the problem. Hey, here's an option for YOU: how about you consider their complaints instead of rejecting them? That way we can get games that are more inclusive, more appealing to more people, game makers get more money, make better games, and everyone wins.


Oh, and just one other thing... I'm totally ok with Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball. I'd be totally ok with Sephiroth, Link, Cloud and Dante's Speedo Lawn Bowl Party if it were to be made. I probably wouldn't enjoy it, but women/gay guys might, even if they consider it low-brow and tasteless. I'm not going to cry foul that it objectifies men - who cares that it does? It's silly, it's titillating, it's fun, and the audience isn't stupid enough to think that it, in any way, represents real men. It's not sexist, it's just porn, and porn has a target audience. The fact that that target isn't me is not a problem with the game.

Edited by NoeL, 25 May 2014 - 10:40 PM.

[Tree]

Cia has a crush on Link, right? That's enough reason to have her tits hanging out. She's just trying to get his attention by showing off the goods.

 

That's my mindset, anyways.