27 replies to this topic

[RetraRoyale]

I'm putting together a chart of enemy difficulties, and so far, this is what I have. I'm basically looking for feedback or corrections, or to provide a resource.

 

HP is what is used in the enemy editor. Swords do 1, 2, 4, 8 damage. Damage is in quarter-hearts (Link has 16 HP per heart.) The chart assumes the player isn't very good at the game, but does get better as it progresses.

 

Format:

Power Level:  HP min-max, DMG min-max Notes

Example enemies

 

 

Tier 0: HP 0-0, DMG 0-4 Pre-sword enemies. Traps and limited resource beatable (no bombs, arrows, etc.)

Ghini (L1, Phantom)

Peahat (L1)

Zora 

Bubble <Temporary and reenabling>

Gel (L1)

Keese <All kinds except bat>

Trap <All kinds>

Trigger

Fire

 

Tier 1: HP 1-3, DMG 2-8 Weak enemies. Can die to candle, bombs, arrows, but quickly. Ranged attacks are very weak.

Octorok (L1, Slow)

Tektite (L2)

Tektite (L1)

Dodongo (BS Zelda)

Dodongo

Gel Tribble (L1)

Rope (L1)

Stalfos (L1)

Wall Master

Zol (L1)

Shooter (Spear)

Shooter (Fireball)

Shooter (Rock)

 

Tier 2: HP 2-6, DMG 4-12 Basic enemies. Assumed easy with boomerang, but do some damage without. Inefficient with starting sword, but still manageable.

Armos

Falling Rock

Leever (L1)

Moblin (L1)

Octorok (L1, Fast)

Spinning Tile

Gel (L2)

Stalfos (L2)

Zol Tribble (L1)

Aquamentus 

Gohma (L1)

Patra (BS Zelda)

Moldorm

Shooter (Fire)

 

Tier 3: HP 4-8, DMG 8-30 Normal enemies. Player is experienced, with blue ring, white sword, and a full row of hearts. Basic equipment avalaible, and advanced strategies allowed. Ranged attacks are weak.

Ghini (L1)

Leever (L2)

Moblin (L2)

Octorok (L2, Fast)

Octorok (L2, Slow)

Bubble <Permanent>

Gel Tribble (L2)

Gibdo

Keese Tribble

Rope (L2)

Vire

Wizzrobe (Teleporting)

Zol (L2)

Digdogger Kid

Gohma (L2)

Patra (Oval)

Lanmola (L1)

Goriya (L1)

Bat

Shooter (Fire 2)

Shooter (Sword)

 

Tier 4: HP 6-10, DMG 10-34 Strong enemies. May have advanced immunities, or require super bombs/lens/magic brang.

Falling Boulder

Darknut (L1)

Like Like

Pols Voice (Arrow)

Bombchu

Vire Tribble

Zol Tribble (L2)

Manhandla (L1)

Patra (Big Circle)

Lanmola (L2)

Goriya (L2)

Shooter (Magic)

 

Tier 5: HP 8-12, DMG 12-40 Stronger enemies. Player has magic sword. Should be beatable without hookshot/hammer/wand, but may be simple with them. Ranged attacks are weaker.

Lynel (L1)

Darknut (L2)

Pols Voice (Magic)

Wizzrobe (Floating)

Digdogger (1 Kid)

Gleeok (1 Head)

Patra (L2)

 

Tier 6: HP 12-20, DMG 20-52 Very strong enemies. Player has 2 rows of hearts, enemies may require special tactics or silver arrows. Potions should start needing to be used with blue ring.

Lynel (L2)

Octorok (L3, Slow)

Wizzrobe (Summoner)

Digdogger (3 Kids)

Ganon

Gleeok (Fire, 1 Head)

Gleeok (2 Heads)

Gleeok (3 Heads)

Gohma (L3)

 

Tier 7: HP 16-32, DMG 24-58 Extremely strong enemies. Player may have combat spells or regen effects. Potions needed with blue tunic. Ranged attackers are deadly.

Octorok (L3, Fast)

Darknut (Splitting)

Wizzrobe (Bat)

Wizzrobe (Wind)

Manhandla (L2)

Gleeok (Fire, 2 Heads)

Gleeok (4 Heads)

Patra (L3)

 

Tier 8: HP 18-44, DMG 36-64 Ultra strong enemies. Player has red tunic and full arsenal. Earlier bosses are easily tanked. Mirror shield is helpful, but not required.

Leever (L3)

Octorok (L4, Fast)

Octorok (L4, Slow)

Stalfos (L3)

Gleeok (Fire, 3 Heads)

Gohma (L4)

Goriya (L3)

 

Tier 9: HP 20-60, DMG 40-80 Absurdly strong enemies. Player has the best equipment, 3 rows of hearts, and strong regen effects. Potions may be needed. Mirror shield may be required.

Octorock (Magic)

Darknut (Death Knight)

Wizzrobe (Mirror)

Gleeok (Fire, 4 Heads)

 

Tier 10: HP 48-250, DMG 48-128  Nearly impossible enemies. Player has everything. Enemy requires everything.

(None)

 

 (The maximums for power 10 are what I would set as 'reasonable' bounds. Any higher than that, and you're not supposed to be able to win. Though, I don't know if it is actually possible to beat a 250HP enemy that does 128 damage per hit...)

 

EDIT: My chart broke... If I can't use a chart, I'll make labels...

 

EDIT 2: Rebuilt the chart to include default enemies.

Edited by RetraRoyale, 25 June 2014 - 09:19 PM.

[Alucard648]

Depends on enemy`s special abilities and surroundings. For instance, in the rooms with Instant-death combos, even a simple annoying Tektite or other fast enemy can be real danger (Knockback into death pit!). Cracktorock should be L9 class due to having the same stats, as DK but, fast. While an enemy with absurdly high stats can be easily avoided, if it has turtle speed (DeathBos from Lost Isle).

 Enemy`s special abilities are whole other thing. LikeLikes, various Bubbles can be real danger, if compounded with other L5-L6 class enemies. Imagine Insta-Eater-LikeLike that eats Mirror Shield in the same room with Mirror Wizzrobes. Same goes for Bubbles, especially permanent variations. Imagine a couple of Permanent Sword Bubbles (no cure jinx Bubbles) in one room with a "Sword-Only" enemy. "Drunk" status effect can be also nasty, if you have some really valuable resources, like Super Bombs or Potions. "Eat(HP)" can also spell doom, if enemy has a lot of HP or immune to melee weapons, like sword or hammer. "Eat(MP)" and "Eat(Rupees)" can be also cruel, especially latter, when you have to grind for rupees to buy that shiny L3 sword...

Edited by Alucard648, 25 June 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[RetraRoyale]

Well, yes, you can always make enemies harder by making the environment more challenging. You can add more enemies or restrict movement. But there are very few ways to make enemies easier except by making Link stronger by giving him items or abilities.

 

So we are mostly talking about lower bounds and relative power levels. A Death Knight is significantly stronger than a Peahat, and a Peahat shouldn't be scary if you have a white sword. So I'm trying to figure out how to order the enemies in such a way that nothing seems out of place.

 

Sure, a starting player could kill a Deathbo with the wooden sword if they wanted. But you're supposed to be scared of a Deathbo. It supposed to feel like an absurdly strong enemy. So don't put it in Level 1. (That's why it's called a Deathbo and not... Chuckles the Mummy.)

 

It's a challenging task, but I think it's worth the effort.

Edited by RetraRoyale, 25 June 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[strike]

This an interesting question. I put together a little equation and weighed how good all the enemies were without as much opinion getting in the way as before. It's obviously not perfect. And it only works currently for walking enemies.

 

E TIER

Gel (L1, Normal) 15 points

Gel (L1, Tribble) 15 points

Octorock (L1, Slow) 16 points

Rope (L1) 19 points

Moblin (L1) 19.5

 

D TIER

Stalfos (L1) 21 points

Octorock (L1, Fast) 23

Octorock (L2, Slow) 23

Goriya (L1) 23.25 points

Vire (Normal) 24 points

Rope (L2) 25 points

Octorock (L2, Fast) 25 points

Gel (L2, Normal) 26 points

Gel (l2, Tribble) 26 points

Zol (L1, Normal) 27 points

Moblin (L2) 27 points

Armos (Slow) 27 points

Lynel (L1) 28 points

 

C TIER

Zol (L1, Tribble) 31 points

Ghini (Normal) 31 points

Darknut (L1) 31 points

Armos (Fast) 32 points

Goriya (L2) 34.25 points

Lynel (L2) 36 points

Gibdo 37 points

Pols Voice 38 points

 

B TIER

Zol (L2, Normal) 41 points

Zol (L2, Tribble) 41 points

Darknut (L2) 46

Goriya (L3) 47 points

Stalfos (L3) 48 points

 

A TIER

Darknut (Splitting) 79 points

 

S TIER

Cracktorock 108 points

 

SS TIER

Deathknight 224

 

Equation:

 

points= HP+ Random Rate+ (Homing Factor)/20+(Step Speed)/10+HP*(Number of Shields+4)/4+(W. Damage)*(Halt Rate)/16

 

I messed with a few numbers:

I did all this in my head so numbers are not set in stone

I always rounded down except when I didn't

I had ropes have a walking speed of 75 with a homing rate of 50 (which they do if you average)

I acted like rapid fire was halt rate 16

 

-Strike

Edited by strike, 25 June 2014 - 06:35 PM.

[RetraRoyale]

I feel like you might be undervaluing step speed and HP on the high end... 

[trudatman]

I think you have leevers and tektites rated too high.  I can't say much about many of the later enemies that I've never heard of.

[anikom15]

Blue Lanmolas is the hardest.

[strike]

RetraRoyle- I don't think so. I originally had a higher value on step speed but enemies like fast octorocks and fast armoses where way too high. What I do think I'm doing wrong is not putting enough emphasis on weapons. Some weapons are currently totally negated as if they don't even exist with this algorithm.

 

-Strike

[RetraRoyale]

Ok, so I went over the chart and reorganized it. What I'm really trying to do here is group enemies in such a way that enemies in the same tier aren't obviously stronger than each other. For instance, I have Lynel 2 in the same tier as Gohma 3. Is that cool? Probably not, since I'd rather fight a Lynel 2 than a Gohma 3, all else being equal.

 

So those are the kinds of things I'm trying to correct.

 

 

RetraRoyle- I don't think so. I originally had a higher value on step speed but enemies like fast octorocks and fast armoses where way too high. What I do think I'm doing wrong is not putting enough emphasis on weapons. Some weapons are currently totally negated as if they don't even exist with this algorithm.

 

-Strike

 

You have a point, I guess. I think that's why we have to rely on more subjective measures. There's also defenses to take into consideration...

Edited by RetraRoyale, 25 June 2014 - 09:24 PM.

[Alucard648]

Sure, a starting player could kill a Deathbo with the wooden sword if they wanted. But you're supposed to be scared of a Deathbo. It supposed to feel like an absurdly strong enemy. So don't put it in Level 1. (That's why it's called a Deathbo and not... Chuckles the Mummy.)

 

It's a challenging task, but I think it's worth the effort.

In my quest (LsiCV) there are some DeathBo`s. Unlike the ones in Lost Isle they have one nasty thing that makes them even more sadistically dangerous, to the point, that they appear only twice in one late-game stage. Try to guess the difference!

Here is a hint: no scripts involved.

[RetraRoyale]

In my quest (LsiCV) there are some DeathBo`s. Unlike the ones in Lost Isle they have one nasty thing that makes them even more sadistically dangerous, to the point, that they appear only twice in one late-game stage. Try to guess the difference!

Here is a hint: no scripts involved.

 

They tribble into Patra 3s?

[strike]

One thing I disagree with is sloping the inventory of the player along with the enemies. If your trying to make a way to measure difficulty without going directly to the enemies stats, then it seems that the type of enemy would be the independent variable and the number of deaths would be the dependent variable; messing around with the environment and the players inventory would create skewed results.

 

-Strike

[RetraRoyale]

The inventory is basically "what is recommended to take into battle against these guys." Things like Like Likes are easy with the wooden sword, but they are also annoying to fight with it. That means you should have a better sword by the time you fight them.

 

But this is meant to help choose enemies for dungeons. So you have to ask yourself "How strong is the player at this point? How hard is the area supposed to be?" Those questions should tell you what tier of enemies to choose from, approximately.

[kurt91]

I don't know exactly how helpful the finished chart would be, but I'd love to be able to use the finalized "formula". I'm using a lot of custom enemies in my quest, and a standardized formula to work out how they rank would be pretty useful for pacing.

[KingPridenia]

Just one question; why are Windrobes tier 7? They're pathetic. They always spawn in one of the four cardinal directions relative to Link's position, they only do a full heart of base contact damage, and their magic is easy to dodge. Okay sure, they take a lot of hits with a White Sword, but you'd have to be in a room with a lot of enemies for them to catch you or simply not pay attention. The Wind doesn't damage you; it just boots you to the DMap's start. Aside from annoyance, they're even less dangerous than Red Wizzrobes since their magic doesn't do a sudden WTF 4 hearts base damage.

 

Also on another note, enemies like Cracktoroks are dangerous only in poorly designed rooms, rooms with tons of enemies, or if you're somehow without a stunning weapon. Once they're stunned, it doesn't matter if they would do 100 hearts of damage to Link wearing a Gold Ring because at that point, they're completely neutralized. Death Knights are a similar poorly made enemy; either you get a Fire Boomerang/Hookshot stun off for an easy no damage kill, or it rams you to death and ravages a Red Ring bearing Link. If there are like 4 or more of them though, then it just borders on fake challenge and just encourages you to spam Nayru's Love or just hide against a wall or in a corner and just hammer on the sword button, hoping you kill them before they kill you.