4 replies to this topic

[isolated726]

Long story boring, My current project is being designed with the Zelda 1 style of non-linearity combined with an A Link Between Worlds item system.  This leads me to the dilemma of trying to create a sense of dungeon and character progression, making sure that the items in dungeons don't become overlooked, and keep as much non-linearity as reasonable at the same time.

This leads to the question of, do you balance progression and non-linearity by having the intended later dungeons have more difficult puzzles and enemies with as few item lockouts as possible?  Or, do you add in some item lockouts and enhance the sense of progression by having a more direct dungeon order?

Maybe the answer is right in front of me, but I'd like to get multiple opinions on this balance before I go deep into dungeon design.

[Naru]

A really easy way is to actually replace items with the carry over option. The item can be found independent on dungeons and you can make clear you have the needed item through making the dungeon only reachable with them. You could also use the "so and so many hearts needed for pick-up"-option to make sure certain items needed for reaching the more difficult areas are not obtained to early.

[Lüt]

do you balance progression and non-linearity by having the intended later dungeons have more difficult puzzles and enemies with as few item lockouts as possible?  Or, do you add in some item lockouts and enhance the sense of progression by having a more direct dungeon order?

I suppose either way could be valid.

 

If you're doing a combat-skill-based quest, you could set it up so that each level has an increasing difficulty, without an increase of items necessary. What you could do to enforce (or "suggest") going through the levels in proper numerical order, is to make the dungeon items be things you can attack with. Like, put wooden boomerang in L1, magic boomerang in L3, fire boomerang in L6, then maybe short bow in L2 and long bow in L4, etc. Heck, make the swords be dungeon items. In that way, each dungeon you go to in order will have attack-based items that make the next dungeons easier. Plus, if you keep the heart requirements for the swords, people would have to beat a certain number of earlier dungeons to pick them up anyway (assuming you give a heart for beating each boss). You could do the same with the shields and other defense items. Put a mirror shield in L5, then have blue wizzrobes make their appearance in L6, etc.

 

Alternatively, you can get creative with item lockouts beyond simply putting a barrier somewhere. Like in Z1's first quest, L8 is one of the first dungeons you can access. Just start a new game, buy a blue candle, and burn down the tree. You won't exactly get too far, because at one point there's a Gohma blocking your path, and you'll need to get the bow & arrow to continue. So, you can use enemies that require a specific weapon to block off areas, rather than just putting a stream of water that can't be passed without a ladder. Though, another thing to consider regarding item blocks is how much of the dungeon can be accessed without that item. You could put a block in the very first few rooms, or you could save it until far later. Maybe even give an item to reward early exploration (and advanced skill, if you can actually get to it). Looking at L8 again, you can bomb to the left, beat the Manhandla, and pick up the magic book. It won't serve any purpose until you get the wand in L6, but I always find it fun to do anyway, so you could follow that example and give a usable item that will make other earlier dungeons easier (i.e. a silver arrow being accessible in L7 when the wooden arrow is only available by L3), or an early item that will come into play once you gather other items (i.e. magic book).

[Anthus]

ALBW does a really good job at being 'non-linear', and it is as much so as the first Zelda, with very few 'item blocks'. If you want to have dungeons that can be done in almost any order, the thing to keep in mind (at least with ALBW) is that 90% of the required items are outside of dungeons, and are obtained differently. I'm not sure if you are using a rental system, but that type of rogue-like risk/ reward system makes exploration feel even more tense. You don't want to drop dead, and lose your rented items. This means your exploration of the overworld, and what you may find in any given order will have a large impact on how you do dungeons. You can have a 'suggested' order, and as Lüt said, use enemy, or maybe the occasional item block to let players know, "hey, maybe you should be stronger before coming in here but if you wanna go for it, sweet".

 

Alternately, you could use level tiers. Let me explain what I mean exactly. ALBW, and ALttP both have three dungeons which are required to do in a pretty clear order. After that, you are taken to a world with more dungeons, and less restrictions. Let's assume you're making a regular nine dungeon quest. In ZC, it might not be a bad idea to have the first three dungeons accessible, and doable in any order, and beating those three (all of them) opens up the next tier of levels. Beating 4-6 opens up levels 7, and 8, then 9 is open after all that. This might be a good compromise if you are not using a rental system, and don't want players to get too lost.

[Naru]

I doubt this does fit for what you want but another possibility would be to make yourself weaker. There is a quest in the database (don't remember which) that does let you loose a heart and an item after each dungeon (linear). You could design a non linear quest a way that does not use rings and only enemies that deal reasonable damage regarding the lack of rings. You could start with full hearts and make a heart the entrance fee for a dungeon (or even more with the boss giving a heart away and hiding heart pieces in there). After certain boss fights you could play a string that says the item was damaged and replace your current item with a weaker one (or remove them and give out stronger ones elsewhere, whatever fits the balance). You could also use the items that strengthen you with low hearts for a better balance to the end.

I think this is clearly not what you want but could be really interesting as a variation of the classic games. Maybe someone else got interested, someone who has nothing better to do than creating a quest full of disgusting like likes.