27 replies to this topic

[Omega]

I think you're getting it wrong. I'm not actually saying you should feel bad for doing changes I don't like.

I'm just honestly asking how the change for the Pegasus Boots can be considered an improvement or an upgrade, that's all.

?????

 

You can now shift directions when dashing, without stopping, right? That's an improvement, as it adds something that wasn't there before. Also an upgrade, for the same reason. Whether it makes the game easier or harder does not matter. Even if it's not useful to you, it's still an improvement/upgrade of a feature the game already had.

[Nicholas Steel]

I like to think that this patch forgot one important change: Make the first Dark World dungeon NOT BORING. Fix that and you got yourself an awesome game

[Maleboocado]

?????

You can now shift directions when dashing, without stopping, right? That's an improvement, as it adds something that wasn't there before. Also an upgrade, for the same reason. Whether it makes the game easier or harder does not matter. Even if it's not useful to you, it's still an improvement/upgrade of a feature the game already had.

It can be a technical upgrade, which is what you're talking about. That does not mean it deserves it. For the same reason it could be considered an improvement, but I actually believe it makes the overall product worse, even if its impact isn't really big.

For me, the Pegasus Boots were already too good. It allowed Link to skip hazards or pass across hordes of enemies without really worring about his safeness. Making the item unable to switch directions on-the-fly at least forced the player to care about the ending lag and nearby enemies when crashing in a wall, because you could still be hurted in that small moment the player loses control of Link. With switching directions you're even skipping that. And this already a game where Link can walk in diagonal directions (some enemies cannot) and move far faster than most of the monsters that spawn in Hyrule and the Dark World.

And nevertheless, Inishie no Sekiban had a time limit. A Link to the Past didn't. That changes quite a lot of things.

At least this isn't some overpowered crap like the Fierce Deity mask and infinite magic, or the boomerang having a total of five targets to fly around.

If you release a "deluxe" edition claiming you have improved a game, yet I think the original version still had difficulty and challenge and fairness in mind, and the "upgrade" goes against those values, I'm not gonna buy it. Now, of course, you can play the game the way you want, and scrap whatever the developers had in mind. Speedrunners does this all the time, quest makers does this all the time, I sometimes do this. But at least I make it clear I'm playing (and interpreting) the game the way I want. Claiming you have taken the original product and "improved" it... it's too arrogant for my tastes, I think.

Edited by Maleboocado, 05 December 2014 - 08:13 PM.

[Moonbread]

I hacked Super Mario Bros. so that fire power can kill buzzy beetles and podobos, and also kill Bowser in one hit.  It's an improvement.  Star power also lasts 50% longer, also an improvement, clearly.  It's an upgrade.

 

Adding things that alter the main game are not necessarily improvements, is what I'm saying.  Altering the Pegasus Boots is a huge deal because you have them for the majority of the game and so they're a core mechanic to Link's abilities.  Imagine if the power of the swords were doubled.  That would completely break the game's difficulty.  Or if Faeries restored all of your hearts.  Or if enemies only did half damage.  Etc.  The point is, is that the game wasn't designed around being able to change direction on a dime while dashing, and imagining it is enough to just make me go "Ehhh..."  I'm not saying that the game can't be improved upon, but buffing an item that was already balanced isn't the way I'd go about it.

 

Anyway, moving on, one thing I don't like in this is some of the "bug fixes".  Not being able to do the Blue Shield trick anymore by freezing a pikit with Ether is disappointing.  I don't know why they felt that was necessary to remove.  I'm surprised they didn't remove the Chris Houlihan room while they were at it.

[Koh]

If you guys wanna be technical...realistically, if you were running, you'd be able to change our direction while doing so.  You'd have a turn radius though, just like when driving a car.  If they implemented it that way in both the BS Zelda game and this hack, I'd see no balancing issues.

 

Some games make up rules that make absolutely no sense, like not being able to duck in a platforming game, or unable to shoot in at least 8 directions. like Contra, in a platforming shooting game.  What, are the characters unable to point their arms in another direction, or is this just developer laziness to get fluid controls down properly, while accommodating the sprite requirements?

 

Stiff controls should never be praised.  Tight, responsive controls should be.  But when the player is clearly handicapped with something they SHOULD be able to do by definition, that's a flaw by design immediately.

Edited by Koh, 06 December 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Kite]

A few months ago I played with a patch that just added the BS boots and the breaking pots thing made by the same people and I have to admit it was pretty neat. The boots change definitely breaks the game more than you'd think since the boots make enemy evasion really easy to the point where you can do multiple hit and run attacks in the same dash without much effort and there were several points where direction changing boots were not considered at all.

 

But I still had fun messing with the patch that changed the boots and pots (I haven't played this DX patch). I considered it something like turning on Ocarina codes to do infinite sticky clawshots and the hovering spinner of doom in Twilight Princess. It's a fun thing to play with just to have something different going on after playing the game normally, but it's clearly breaking the game if you want to sit down and play a decently balanced game.

[Koh]

That's why i said if they implemented a turn radius, it'd keep it balanced, while making the functionality what you'd expect.  You don't have to stop dead in your tracks to change direction when you run in life, so why does it need to happen in a game?  You SHOULD be allowed to duck in platform games, and change the direction of your gun just by holding the D-pad in the way you want.  If a game goes against your natural instincts as gamer, it's failing on the most basic level.

[Nicholas Steel]

Yeah but in this particular game implementing a turn radius wouldn't be easy and might lag the game whenever it transpires (It'd also likely look visually weird).

Edited by franpa, 06 December 2014 - 11:27 PM.

[TheLegend_njf]

Am I the only one who finds this Pegasus Boots debate kinda dumb? Lol

[Timelord]

I find debating what a ROM-hacker adds to a game a dubious pursuit. If you don't like a changes, fine; ignore itc, remove that code from the IPS, or don't play it.

What I'd like to see is a new IPS (such as PW or GoW) that makes use of the additions to open secrets, or similar tasks; and making the dash boot maneuverability a learnt skill (or Boots L2). I feel that this would be a god gameto use for future hacks that change gameplay (i.e. 'complete changes').

Unlimited MP in PW was overpowered, but quite necessary to make it playable. If only there were Z3 hacks that fell between the legitimate game (easy to moderate), and PW (quite, quite insane). The 'DX' suffix is in the same line as the Gameboy followup.

I sent a likn to this thread, to the author of the patch, so perhaps comments here will inspire other changes.

[Koh]

I find debating what a ROM-hacker adds to a game a dubious pursuit. If you don't like a changes, fine; ignore itc, remove that code from the IPS, or don't play it.
 

I was just stressing the importance of solid control, being a game developer myself.   There's so many games that are absurdly stiff, when they'd be so much better if they had proper controls.

 

Take this for example.

@2:36

Edited by Koh, 09 December 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[qwertymodo]

All this talk about the boots, and not one person has mentioned the single biggest upgrade in the entire patch, MSU-1 audio?  That's kinda sad.  TBH it's the whole reason I put this patch together.  Full CD-quality soundtracks are, admittedly a rather polarizing topic.  There are plenty of people that will write it off as "inauthentic" but frankly I REALLY like it.  I'm not a huge fan of the Zelda ReOrchestrated tracks that Themaister used, so I put together my own track pack primarily based around the A Link Between Worlds soundtrack.

As far as the L2 sword requirement for breaking pots, I ended up not being a fan of that and if I ever get around to uploading the last few tweaks as a new update, it'll be all swords break pots.  For those of you that really dislike the boots that much, you can disable it with a few simple changes in your favorite hex editor (or if you don't have a favorite, you can always use *my* favorite, HxD)
 

Address: 0x1057D
Old: 22 33 FF 07 EA
New: 64 56 9C E0 02


Address: 0x10B13
Old: 80
New: F0

Address: 0x3911D
Old: 4C 40 FF EA
New: A5 F0 29 0F

Address: 0x3BCB8
Old: 22 20 FF 07
New: A5 66 29 02

Address: 0x49F32
Old: 22 F4 FF 07 EA
New: 9C D6 02 64 5E

Note: I haven't tested this, so yell at me if it breaks something, but it should work.

 

[Xenix]

Hey, thanks for stopping by to give out those hex values.
Yeah, MSU-1 audio is a pretty big upgrade. I think most of them were just concerned with both balancing with the Pegasus Boots as well as the "upgrade" terminology used on it. I, personally, find it interesting to use for speed running. But I can totally understand where the rest of them are coming from.