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Dark Nation's ZC poll


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#16 Alestance

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 07:19 AM

far beyond unfair, this poll was too onesided. Version 2.5 is just going to be a miriad of incomplete and unaccessable stuff.

QUOTE(Freedom)


I'm talking stop adding, anything incomplete be coded out, bugs fixed, stableversion released now.



He doesn't even use ZC anymore, so he's far from qualified now to be the "Voice of Reason."

Edited by Master_of_Power, 26 June 2007 - 07:19 AM.


#17 Dr. Mutagen

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 07:25 AM

Definitely 1.

While stomping out bugs is indeed very important, if the new features are taken out of the final release, the anticipation of these features that has engulfed many of us (myself included) will have been for naught.

To be honest, I really don't feel that a poll on this matter is necessary. In my opinion, everyone should just stop their *****ing and stay the course..

EDIT:

QUOTE
He(Freedom) doesn't even use ZC anymore, so he's far from qualified now to be the "Voice of Reason."


Quoted for truth. In my eyes, he's just trying to derail progress on a stable ZC until it finally dies. In other words, don't listen to him.

Edited by Dr. Mutagen, 26 June 2007 - 07:29 AM.


#18 Freedom

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 07:44 AM

QUOTE(Master_of_Power @ Jun 26 2007, 06:19 AM) View Post

far beyond unfair, this poll was too onesided. Version 2.5 is just going to be a miriad of incomplete and unaccessable stuff.
He doesn't even use ZC anymore, so he's far from qualified now to be the "Voice of Reason."


You talk about being a voice of reason....
How do you profess to know if I use ZC or for that matter, anything else I do with my time, you don't know me.




and Mutagen...
Derail WHAT progress?
Last years promised stable release?



#19 Alestance

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 07:47 AM

Basicly what your trying to say with this one is: Everytime a new feature will be suggested from now on the excuse will almost always seem to be "Sorry, that will cause us to loose stability in the platform. We can't do it."


What ever happened to this list?

PRIORITY: (Not in any order)
Bottomless Pits/Drowning
Cliff Jumping
Ladder Combos
Sideview Ladder Combos
Ice Combos
Cane of Byrna
Signs
Combo format revamping
Pickup and throw objects
Quest Rule: Fire consumes enemies

NOT REALLY PRIORITY:
Downstab
Great Spin Attack (Hey, it can't be that hard. - L.)
Fairy Spell (Transform into a fairy! Wears out when you change screens. - L.)
Jump Spell (Augments the Roc's Feather! Wears out when you change screens. - L.)
Life Spell (Actually very easy to implement, but not really important. - L.)
Fire Ghinis
Fire Dodongos
Fire Peahats (That's ridiculous. - L.)
Bat Wizzrobe L2 (Even more ridiculous. - L.)
Darknuts with Mirror Shields
Roc's Cape (An alternative to the Hover Boots. Note: low priority. - L)
Z3-style lamp
Level Specific Magic Key
Custom fonts (That sounds strenuous. - L)
Custom Title Screen
Master sword beam that goes through all enemies
Cane of Somaria (This will be the L2 Wand. See FSA's Ice Palace. - L.)
Cloak of Invisibility
Ice Rod
Level 2 cross
Playable ocarina
Moving tile warps
Lightable torches (Burn->Next?)

This list has been around for a long time, and only now has someone really bothered with it, it seems.

You've all been waiting for someone who could and would make features we've been asking for for a long time. Now that we have those features, you're gonna turn around and spit into the developers' face? You asked for features. Now that you got them, your saying we were better off without them!

CAN YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND ON WHAT YOU REALLY WANT?

Edited by Master_of_Power, 26 June 2007 - 07:56 AM.


#20 Freedom

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:00 AM

I'm not saying anything about suggestions, DN is the one that decided to cut that off, and DN is the one that made the "skewed" poll your *****ing about,
AND as for your list, Jman's promise .... no GUARANTEE of a stable release, was there long before any list.

I voted the way I wanted, you had the chance to do the same, and it came back 4 to 1 that people want a stable release.


I just did a quick search for quests by either of you two....
I didn't find any, and you want to hold up the rest of us that DO build quests so you can have "new play toys" to play with but produce nothing with?

Edited by Freedom, 26 June 2007 - 08:05 AM.


#21 Dr. Mutagen

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:08 AM

QUOTE(Freedom @ Jun 26 2007, 09:00 AM) View Post

Jman's promise .... no GUARANTEE of a stable release,


Uh...What? I don't remember anyone promising anything in terms of a stable release. 2.5's New Years release was nothing more than a speculated goal. At least that's what it seemed like to me.

I believe we should let _L_ finish up any of the remaining items on his "To-Do List", as well as get rid of any remaining bugs, before we can call 2.5 complete. This is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT:

QUOTE(Freedom)
I just did a quick search for quests by either of you two....
I didn't find any, and you want to hold up the rest of us that DO build quests so you can have "new play toys" to play with but produce nothing with?


Wow...

I'm sorry, but that statement was really closed-minded, even for you. Just because I haven't completed any quests doesn't mean I have never worked with ZQuest at all.




Edited by Dr. Mutagen, 26 June 2007 - 08:18 AM.


#22 elise

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:12 AM

Yeah real unfair to take it up and blame one person if you look at the poll result , blame everybody that want a stable version not just one , and get your facts straight before you say things like
QUOTE
He doesn't even use ZC anymore

This kind of talk only proofs you don't know what you are talking about
and
QUOTE
CAN YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND ON WHAT YOU REALLY WANT?

we want a stable version

#23 Freedom

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE(Dr. Mutagen @ Jun 26 2007, 07:08 AM) View Post

Uh...What? I don't remember anyone promising anything in terms of a stable release. 2.5's New Years release was nothing more than a speculated goal. At least that's what it seemed like to me.

I believe we should let _L_ finish up any of the remaining items on his "To-Do List", as well as get rid of any remaining bugs, before we can call 2.5 complete. This is just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.



If you had done something all this time other than just run your mouth like maybe beta test, then you would have been there to SEE the SEVERAL POSTS Jman made guaranteeing a release by Dec. of last year.
You not remembering it doesn't change a thing.

You have the right to believe that L should finish everything he could ever dream of adding before a stable release, and those of us that actually build quests ALSO have the right to believe a stable version after all these years is now overdue.

closed minded?
What would you know about closed minded?
You produce nothing and want to stop those of us that do.

Edited by Freedom, 26 June 2007 - 08:20 AM.


#24 Peteo

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:37 AM

What the hell Dr. Mutagen and Master of Power, what the bloody hell?
I can't believe the amount of bullcrap coming out of your mouth! >_< You guys know nothing about the state of ZC and you treat the guy who is trying to put some sense in the developers head like he's some great evil. He's been so badly mistreated and misguided by the developers it isn't funny. He has every right to say the things he says and every word he says is true, except for the _L_ bashing which sometimes goes too far (even though _L_ almost destroyed my quest too, I still don't wanna believe _L_ is some evil demon).

But oh man, the ignorance of some people is... amazing....
... jesus, I better stop reading these threads before my head explodes. >_<


(edit - forgive me PureZC staff. The future and status of ZC means so much to me so my posts about this issue always appear aggressive. And then seeing foolish and false comments about Freedom... it is just too much. But from now on I promise to stay out of these threads so no need to warn me or remind me of the rules. icon_wink.gif )

Edited by Peteo, 26 June 2007 - 09:00 AM.


#25 Sharon Daniel

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:56 AM

QUOTE(Master_of_Power @ Jun 26 2007, 08:47 AM) View Post

Basicly what your trying to say with this one is: Everytime a new feature will be suggested from now on the excuse will almost always seem to be "Sorry, that will cause us to loose stability in the platform. We can't do it."
What ever happened to this list?

PRIORITY: (Not in any order)
Bottomless Pits/Drowning
Cliff Jumping
Ladder Combos
Sideview Ladder Combos
Ice Combos
Cane of Byrna
Signs
Combo format revamping
Pickup and throw objects
Quest Rule: Fire consumes enemies

NOT REALLY PRIORITY:
Downstab
Great Spin Attack (Hey, it can't be that hard. - L.)
Fairy Spell (Transform into a fairy! Wears out when you change screens. - L.)
Jump Spell (Augments the Roc's Feather! Wears out when you change screens. - L.)
Life Spell (Actually very easy to implement, but not really important. - L.)
Fire Ghinis
Fire Dodongos
Fire Peahats (That's ridiculous. - L.)
Bat Wizzrobe L2 (Even more ridiculous. - L.)
Darknuts with Mirror Shields
Roc's Cape (An alternative to the Hover Boots. Note: low priority. - L)
Z3-style lamp
Level Specific Magic Key
Custom fonts (That sounds strenuous. - L)
Custom Title Screen
Master sword beam that goes through all enemies
Cane of Somaria (This will be the L2 Wand. See FSA's Ice Palace. - L.)
Cloak of Invisibility
Ice Rod
Level 2 cross
Playable ocarina
Moving tile warps
Lightable torches (Burn->Next?)

This list has been around for a long time, and only now has someone really bothered with it, it seems.

You've all been waiting for someone who could and would make features we've been asking for for a long time. Now that we have those features, you're gonna turn around and spit into the developers' face? You asked for features. Now that you got them, your saying we were better off without them!

CAN YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND ON WHAT YOU REALLY WANT?

You forgot to mention scripting, custom items, and custom enemies (which all kind of go hand-in-hand). Those three are probably the biggest causes of bugs and further delay.

#26 Freedom

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 09:07 AM

Petoe,
I don't think the developers have treated be badly, or intentionaly misguided me either for that matter.
I think Jman honestly wanted to and tried for a stable release, but L coming on board at that time just got it pushed aside.
I also don't have a problem with all the hard work and additions that L has put into the engine, I just think it's past time for a stable release to get us back to quest building.
L has good intentions, he just doesn't realize that it's been too long between stable engines and that has some of us now stopped cold.

8 of the 9 quests I've released were built in the 183, I can't go back to that now, my 2 quests that are in the can have to be finished in 2.11b10b or above or they just won't get finished, it's that simple, one of those, The Adventures of Robinhood, I have well over a year of hard work in, I want to see an engine I can finish and release it in.

Edited by Freedom, 26 June 2007 - 09:10 AM.


#27 Dorian

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 09:17 AM

choice two
or else 2.5 will remain a dream
because I don't think there's a limit to the features we can add


#28 Sephiroth

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 09:29 AM

To quoth myself:

QUOTE(Sephiroth)
I say a feature freeze, and get ZC to a stable state.

Also, the QDB should be fixed as well.


So with that, I voted 2.

#29 Koopa

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 09:30 AM

I was tempted to close this before it blows, but seeing Freedom's last post and Peteo's edit I guess I'll leave it for now. Without pointing a finger at anyone though, I know this is a controversial topic but we don't need to pour more oil in to the fire.


A short update from the developer side: there was a dev meeting yesterday - I couldn't attend but I've got a log - in which the poll, its results and implications were discussed. We have taken notice. Our new policy is "stability first".

Once again, I'd say it is unfair to direct all the flak at _L_. For one thing, the only ones who never make mistakes are the ones who never do anything, For another, he was perfectly in his rights to add new features. Next, many bugs are from earlier code anyway that are in no way his fault. Finally, it must be said that jman's leaving was to a part influenced by the general mood of complaining and if anyone manages to get another developer to leave, that won't get ZC fixed any faster.

In summary:
The opinion of a majority that stability should take preference over new features has been noted and will be observed. That's not to say there'll be nothing new anymore whatsoever, but it doesn't mean nothing either.

#30 Snarwin

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Posted 26 June 2007 - 09:39 AM

I honestly cannot believe some of what I'm reading.

So there are unfinished features in 2.5. So some of the features you wanted didn't get in. So what? You still have built in multiwarps and screen-specific midis and 8-bit color and big link tiles and scripting, for God's sake--you should be able to make do with that while ZC 3.0, or whatever the next version is, is in development. Yes, there are features that should be added and finished, but that can wait until the ones we already have are up and running smoothly.

What some of you don't seem to get is that a stable 2.5 isn't going to be the end of development for ZC. Quite the contrary, in fact; once the developers have a stable version, I imagine it'll be much easier to add new features onto that. But if we keep insisting on more features, it's never going to be finished. You've got to stop somewhere, and I think where we are now is as good a place as any.

So I cast my vote for option 2.


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