60 replies to this topic

[DarkDragon]

Well, for what it's worth, lately a lot of the bugs reported have been minor/cosmetic bugs, instead of quest corrupting/ZC crashing ones.

Looking at the current active bug list I don't see many that could honestly be claimed to severely impact your ability to create quests. Sure, some of the bugs are plenty annoying - map viewer doesn't work, Save As is funky, etc... but none of them seem as bad as even your infamous raft bug back when ZC was "stable."

I've explained it before, but it bears repeating: bug-fixing is not linear. That is, bugs don't just keep getting fixed until no further bugs exist. Rather, bug-fixing is iterative, as bugs are not created equal - some are more complicated or thorny than others. The tough bugs - especially if they are minor - tend to be put on the backburner since a) they take more effort to fix, and b) there are more critical bugs that users want fixed first.

However, at the end of the day, all bugs must be fixed. So a developer tackles a tough bug. These bugs require changing a substantial amount of code, and inevitably unrelated parts of the program break. Thus a tough bug has been replaced by several easy bugs. Progress has been made, even though it doesn't appear so.

A great example of this phenomenon is the current map view bug. The map viewer bug looks pretty serious - viewing the map produces all kinds of garbage - but map viewing is a relatively trivial piece of code that was disturbed when I fixed a much deeper rendering problem affecting screen scrolling, and will be fixed in minutes when I get to it.

With the current public changelog it is theoretical possible to make a "bugginess graph" by taking each bug, finding when it was introduced and when it was fixed, and thereby calculating how many bugs were present in each build. I bet the graph would be saw-shaped, with the valleys getting lower and lower. At the very least I confidently assert that the current build is less buggy than build 254, which is less buggy than b16.


As for the main page, you're preaching to the choir. I have no access to the page nor any real power at AGN to get it fixed.

And I have published one quest

[ShadowTiger]

And, if it's any consolation, the Developers are just as formidable, if not moreso, (Such as the utterly remarkably talented DarkDragon.) in fixing the bugs that crop up as the result of anything you can imagine. For example: From the latest Shardstorm update:

* Slow walk combos now halve Link's movement speed (on average) in both normal and Z3 animation mode.
* Editing a combo after having moved/deleted an animating combo no longer corrupts your combo table. ( DarkDragon, 2007-06-24 01:29:41 )

I think I swooned a little... These two were reputedly some of the most difficult bugs to track down. A big hand to DD and the Devs for fixing these long-time bugs.

[Colin]

When your demo wont upload

Really, all I want to do is finish a quest. But as I begin to work on the quest, my brain gets filled with new ideas for the story. So soon it evolves from "save Zelda" to some amazing plot that has nothing to do with Zelda. Thus, more work. Ending with me trying to implement the story parts, getting frustrated and stopping. The only true quest I had any motivation to work on for extended periods of time was The Lock of the Spirits(whose storyline has evolved into possibly an award winning 700+ page book).

At the current moment, I don't want to work with ZC.

[Freedom]

Well, for what it's worth, lately a lot of the bugs reported have been minor/cosmetic bugs, instead of quest corrupting/ZC crashing ones.

Looking at the current active bug list I don't see many that could honestly be claimed to severely impact your ability to create quests. Sure, some of the bugs are plenty annoying - map viewer doesn't work, Save As is funky, etc... but none of them seem as bad as even your infamous raft bug back when ZC was "stable."

I've explained it before, but it bears repeating: bug-fixing is not linear. That is, bugs don't just keep getting fixed until no further bugs exist. Rather, bug-fixing is iterative, as bugs are not created equal - some are more complicated or thorny than others. The tough bugs - especially if they are minor - tend to be put on the backburner since a) they take more effort to fix, and b) there are more critical bugs that users want fixed first.

However, at the end of the day, all bugs must be fixed. So a developer tackles a tough bug. These bugs require changing a substantial amount of code, and inevitably unrelated parts of the program break. Thus a tough bug has been replaced by several easy bugs. Progress has been made, even though it doesn't appear so.

A great example of this phenomenon is the current map view bug. The map viewer bug looks pretty serious - viewing the map produces all kinds of garbage - but map viewing is a relatively trivial piece of code that was disturbed when I fixed a much deeper rendering problem affecting screen scrolling, and will be fixed in minutes when I get to it.

With the current public changelog it is theoretical possible to make a "bugginess graph" by taking each bug, finding when it was introduced and when it was fixed, and thereby calculating how many bugs were present in each build. I bet the graph would be saw-shaped, with the valleys getting lower and lower. At the very least I confidently assert that the current build is less buggy than build 254, which is less buggy than b16.
As for the main page, you're preaching to the choir. I have no access to the page nor any real power at AGN to get it fixed.

And I have published one quest

You keep missing the point, so it must be intentional.
The 2.11b10b was almost bugLESS, and instead of polishing it up and releasing a stable version, the devs went back the other way and started cramming more and more in, causing more and more instability and bugs.
It took 3 versions A, B, and C, of 2.11b12 before it would even run on my computer.
That might have been one simple thing (traps) that caused it, but who cares, it still went from almost completely stable to nonworking period.
so when does a STABLE release come, that people can set back and use to build quests with instead of being expected to give up quest making to be professional beta testers instead?

You keep pointing out all the hard work that's been done and acting like it's not appreciated.
What you don't want to see is that people want a STABLE release they can just set back and use.
If you were a mechanic would you change a guys tires if he ask you to rebuild his engine?
Would the tires be of use to him with a blown engine?

I don't believe there will ever be a stable bug free release of Zelda Classic, because the devs just REFUSE to focus on doing that.
Jman tried, and L was brought in which put a stop to Jman's efforts real quick, and a promise of a stable release last year was left unfulfilled.

[Mitchfork]

If I wanted to use a stable release, I'd just use 1.92 b183. The point of newer versions is to add more features, not just to fix the bugs of previous versions (although it is nice to do so). If fixing things was the goal, then we'd all be driving Model T's. Innovation is the key.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that there are plenty of tools available to make a stable quest. I think that the developers putting in new stuff is great and certainly appreciated. That and we're WAY off topic here.

Edited by Ebola Zaire, 24 June 2007 - 01:43 PM.

[DarkDragon]

You keep missing the point, so it must be intentional.
The 2.11b10b was almost bugLESS, and instead of polishing it up and releasing a stable version, the devs went back the other way and started cramming more and more in, causing more and more instability and bugs.
It took 3 versions A, B, and C, of 2.11b12 before it would even run on my computer.
That might have been one simple thing (traps) that caused it, but who cares, it still went from almost completely stable to nonworking period.
so when does a STABLE release come, that people can set back and use to build quests with instead of being expected to give up quest making to be professional beta testers instead?

You keep pointing out all the hard work that's been done and acting like it's not appreciated.
What you don't want to see is that people want a STABLE release they can just set back and use.
If you were a mechanic would you change a guys tires if he ask you to rebuild his engine?
Would the tires be of use to him with a blown engine?

I don't believe there will ever be a stable bug free release of Zelda Classic, because the devs just REFUSE to focus on doing that.
Jman tried, and L was brought in which put a stop to Jman's efforts real quick, and a promise of a stable release last year was left unfulfilled.

Since I keep fixing bugs to this day which have been around since 2.10, 2.1110b was not "almost bugless." In the meantime the item system was overhauled, introducing a lot of problems, but almost all of these have now been ironed out. In fact I'd be willing to bet 2.1110b had more unresolved bugs than the current build.

Also, perhaps you've not noticed, but I've been doing nothing else with ZC in the past month or so *other* than fixing bugs. I'm not sure what more you want from me

Edited by DarkDragon, 24 June 2007 - 02:24 PM.

[Peteo]

Since I keep fixing bugs to this day which have been around since 2.10, 2.1110b was not "almost bugless." In the meantime the item system was overhauled, introducing a lot of problems, but almost all of these have now been ironed out. In fact I'd be willing to bet 2.1110b had more unresolved bugs than the current build.

Also, perhaps you've not noticed, but I've been doing nothing else with ZC in the past month or so *other* than fixing bugs. I'm not sure what more you want from me

Well well, there's this one developer who has concetrated on adding and implementing stuff instead of concentrating on creating a stable ZC...
But even if you developers are FINALLY concentrating on bugs only, it is starting to be too damn late!
The popularity of ZC has declined quite a bit during these last few years. A stable ZC during the end of last year would have saved a lot of headache, but even though you guys are working hard on the builds there just isn't a stable ZC release in sight. ZC has become a pathetic joke, and the developers don't seem to give a **** about hard working quest developers and their opinons.

It would honestly be great if you guys could make me look like a total jackass by releasing something stable, like... during this year, but somehow I just know ZC is beyond fixable and perhaps you know that too but cannot just face the truth. Yeah, how can a guy like me who doesn't know anything about programming say stuff like this? Well ZC has been in this same state for MANY FREAKING YEARS so excuse me if I've lost all faith in you and that I'm constantly pissed at people who say "everything's fine, there will be a stable ZC soon!".

[Freedom]

Since I keep fixing bugs to this day which have been around since 2.10, 2.1110b was not "almost bugless." In the meantime the item system was overhauled, introducing a lot of problems, but almost all of these have now been ironed out. In fact I'd be willing to bet 2.1110b had more unresolved bugs than the current build.

Also, perhaps you've not noticed, but I've been doing nothing else with ZC in the past month or so *other* than fixing bugs. I'm not sure what more you want from me

I consider 2.11b10b far more stable than 2.10, and I'm working on building a 3rd quest in it right now.
I think if it was as bad as you say I'd have run into something by now.
And yes, I've noticed you have been burning up the bugs, but NONE of those bugs existed in the 2.10 or the 2.11b10b did they?
Since those features didn't exist then how could those bugs have existed?
For you to try and convince me the current beta is more stable is total BS and you know it.
I was born in the day time, but not yesterday.
Jman drug me around by the nose for 6 months, I won't be falling for that trick again any time soon.
Show Me.

You ask what do I want from you?
I want what I've been asking for all along, and stable bug free release.

Edited by Freedom, 24 June 2007 - 04:34 PM.

[DarkDragon]

Well seeing as I've been devoting most of my development time to fixing bugs pretty much since I've been hired (with the notable exception of adding ZScript), that's what I think I'm doing. If you think I could do something else that would be more useful to "hardworking quest developers" please let me know. I want to make as many ZC users as happy as possible, and to that end I have fixed all of the bugs reported by either of you that I've been aware of. I'm not telepathic; if there's more you want me to do for you, let me know.
Vague suggestions such as "release a stable version" aren't particularly helpful because that's already what I'm trying to do. Also keep in mind that I am not the project lead. Complaints about the general direction of development or actions by other developers need to be addressed directly, in private, to Dark Nation. Posting about them here pretty much guarantees they will be overlooked and ignored.

[Freedom]

They've been overlooked and ignored wherever and whenever they been posted thus far, I didn't expect otherwise.
I beta tested for 2 1/2 years and my time was wasted because they weren't serious about getting a stable release out, tell me why I should stop what I'm doing and pick up beta testing again.
The act of doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, is the definition of insanity.
Dark Nation knows the situation, and has chosen not to do anything about it, until he does, you should stop making promises like Jman did, that are going to end up with you looking like the fool.

[Mitchfork]

C'mon, guys. Insulting the devs and yelling at them isn't going to help anything. If you want to help, then please do, but don't complain. Freedom, I can understand where you're coming from, and I know that you went through a lot of crap for what you consider nothing. Peteo, I'm with you on being frustrated that ZC hasn't upgraded in a while, but being pessimistic and predicting the end of ZC really isn't helping much. I stand by the developers; yes, I wish that they'd do certain things, but frankly, my whining doesn't contribute anything to the effort.

[Freedom]

I haven't insulted any developer, I've just stated the facts as they stand to date.
I guess you feel like darkdragon does, that ONLY DEVS time should be considered important and the time the rest of us have invested doesn't give us the right to be disappointed in the direction it's going or to state our views.

[Mitchfork]

Yes, the users' opinion does matter. But saying "Hurry up!" doesn't do much good. If nothing else does anything, then all we can do is wait. There is a constructive way to handle this... and frankly, I'm sure the devs have lives outside of this, as do we all... they don't have to do anything at all, but they continue on. I appreciate that, and want it to be known that not all ZC-ers have lost faith.

Edited by Ebola Zaire, 24 June 2007 - 06:03 PM.

[ShadowTiger]

I wonder how complex the human body is compared to the ZC Engine. I wonder what would've happened if God had stopped working on it because there could've been bugs in some of the things he'd designed. We have arms and legs because of his ordeals. He stuck with it. We use our arms and legs every day.

Of course, God was the only one working on mankind at the time. Then, somewhere down the line, of course, we become "Intelligent" and started to hack each other to pieces. War.

I know the argument here. I've read and read it over and over again, so you don't have to go *****ing to me about it again and again until you think I'm approaching the point where I can see even a fraction of what you do. I do see it. I just like to keep up hope where others have dropped it. I also like to work with what I have. I've been doing it all my life.

God made Humans "perfect" eventually, so why can't ZC be perfect eventually as well? Even if it's years off, it's something worth waiting for. I also don't think that chewing out the Devs is a good idea regardless of what they're doing. They're fixing bugs too, even if they're adding more, (Which I don't think they are at this point.) so if you chew one out, and they leave, there goes a large portion of bug fixes.

And, of course, the bug fixing process is very coordinated.

ZC Devs aren't Gods. (Though I honestly can't help wondering how much C++ God knows. That'd be pretty awesome if whatever religious omniscience God has extended to programming languages too. )




... ... Ehhh, I shouldn't have posted this. Now I'm going to get chewed out by someone. ;_;

I guess you feel like darkdragon does, that ONLY DEVS time should be considered important and the time the rest of us have invested doesn't give us the right to be disappointed in the direction it's going or to state our views.

You learned to draw in ZQuest. You joined the ZC Communities and met Elise and the others. Same goes for us all. You've released a lot of quests, though not without a lot of aggravation. You've come out fairly well, I think, despite all these aggravations.

[DarkDragon]

Freedom, I'm still waiting for a constructive suggestion from you about what I should be doing differently. And I haven't made any promises as far as I can tell, only stated my support for publishing a stable release as soon as possible.