Jump to content

Photo

2D Game Remakes: Polished 2D or Transition to 3D?


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Koh

Koh

    Tamer Koh

  • Members
  • Real Name:Dominic
  • Location:Monsbaiya, Virginia

Posted 02 September 2018 - 05:56 AM

Self explanatory topic.  Obviously subjective, but something I'd like to hear everyone's personal taste on.  What spawned this:  Modern remakes of classic games in the past couple of years.

 

Samples

 

Final Fantasy Adventure/Sword of Mana/Adventures of Mana/Seiken Densetsu Mobile

finalfantasyadventureadventuresofmana2_t

ffaaomchocobo_thumb.jpg

ffasomaom_thumb.jpg

iLLl2j0.gif

 

Secret of Mana

secret_of_mana_remake_snes_comparison.jp

BridgeCombat-560x350.jpg

 

Final Fantsay I

1rr1YLm.jpg

 

Final Fantasy IV

446970-ffiv_comparison.jpg

ffivbaron.jpg

 

1429645919.png

FjRm6GM.png

Final-Fantasy-IV-Screens-1.jpg

 

You should get the idea from these.

 

I personally feel like 2D things should stay 2D when getting remade, but get done in higher fidelity like the enhanced 2D remakes of the games above.  My problem with the 3D remakes isn't even the fact that they're 3D, but the implementation they almost always go for.  The same FF4 style DS Low Poly and chibi models, that make it look like an old N64 title.  I get the DS can only handle so much, but they did that even for the Secret of Mana remake on PS4.  I'd much rather have clean looking, expressive and polished higher resolution sprites, rather than jagged looking, bland 3D models.   You cant even see the expressions of the models faces half the time.  If they actually made the 3D more expressive and more organic looking, it might turn out okay.  But so far, I've yet to see a 3D remake that has.


  • Jared likes this

#2 Deedee

Deedee

    Bug Frog Dragon Girl

  • Moderators
  • Real Name:Deedee
  • Pronouns:She / Her, They / Them
  • Location:Canada

Posted 02 September 2018 - 08:02 AM

I love the 3D chibi style. Reminds me so much of Bravely Default.


  • Anthus likes this

#3 Moosh

Moosh

    Tiny Little Questmaker

  • ZC Developers

Posted 02 September 2018 - 11:50 AM

3D remakes are lazy. Upscaled sprite remakes are pointless. Pick your poison. Now what I'd love to see is some more creative remakes that are actually willing to change and try to improve upon the source material. Dare I say a new art style? Something hand-drawn and actually HD? 


  • Anthus, Jared and Lüt like this

#4 Anthus

Anthus

    Lord of Liquids

  • Members
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 02 September 2018 - 12:43 PM

It's weird, I can't really explain why I like some remakes over others. For example, with the FF4 remake, I personally thought the chunky low res DS version looked better than the PSP version. But at the same time, I don't really like the look of the Sword of Mana 3D remake. 

 

I feel like if you are going to do a 3D remake, it needs to have a unique style, that also extends beyond character designs. FF4 DS works because it kind of looks like a PS1 game, and has some charm in that. You can maybe imagine that this is what it may have looked like if they made this game in 3D then. But the Sword of Mana remake that recently came out doesn't do the same. It has a much higher screen resolution, so it comes off as looking like a smart phone game. That doesn't mean the game is bad, it just means I don't like the way it looks.

 

But as to why people make remakes? Money. Very rarely do we see a remake that actually fixes stuff. WWHD, OoT3D and MM3D are the only remakes I can think of that actually improve the original games significantly. I'd even say the GBA FF1-2 remakes were good, especially if you are a kid who sucks at RPGs and never played the originals.

 

EDIT: Two other things that bug me about these "up-scaled" or "HD" or whatever remakes/ ports are when the text looks like stock Android text, and when things aren't consistent across the board in 'pixel size'. This is most noticeable in text.

 

Here is a slightly less egregious example of what I'm talking about.
72fqBWO.png

 

Shantae's high resolution portrait and her text box look really odd against the lower res game graphics in the back. This game looks amazing either way, but the 3DS version (Shantae and the Pirate's Curse) looks better to me cause everything uses the same size pixels.



#5 Shane

Shane

    💙

  • Moderators
  • Pronouns:He / Him
  • Location:South Australia

Posted 02 September 2018 - 12:49 PM

I personally prefer a variety of different takes on remakes, simply because I like seeing the creativity. Why do we have to desire one type of remake? 2D to 3D remakes can work, and I'm sure there are plenty out there that haven't been cited. But even then, you can simply look at something like A Link Between Worlds (a 3D sequel to ALttP) which is solid proof you can do a 2D to 3D remake and make it vastly more expressive and expand the visuals. I think 2D remakes can work obviously, but smoothing out the graphics and upscaling them... it kind of looks hideous, lazy and soulless IMO. I dare say it's on the level of original DS 3D graphics of hideous.

 

Also what Anthus said rings true: IMO the best kind of remakes do more than just update graphics. Most of the time, a remake is more forgiven if they update some gameplay elements for the better.


  • Anthus, Jared and Matthew like this

#6 klop422

klop422

    Guess I'm full of monsters and treasure

  • Members
  • Real Name:Not George
  • Location:Planet Earth

Posted 02 September 2018 - 01:16 PM

But as to why people make remakes? Money. Very rarely do we see a remake that actually fixes stuff. WWHD, OoT3D and MM3D are the only remakes I can think of that actually improve the original games significantly. I'd even say the GBA FF1-2 remakes were good, especially if you are a kid who sucks at RPGs and never played the originals.

Pokemon?

Sure, many of the 'improvements' are controversial, but they're definitely more than just ports of the games with updated graphics. Not sure all of them fix issues, though.

 

In any case, I'm not sure I like either way of doing it that much. Making pixel art, but smoothed out starts to lose the charm of pixel art for me. I kind of like the updated sprite-art version of the first one (can't be bothered to type out those names :P), and I like the look of FFI and FFII on GBA, but the others on PSP feel like they're in some sort of middle ground which I don't like. Might be something to do with how separate the background and NPCs look. To me, with exception of the big orange cloud guy (I forget its name), the sprites don't seem to fit with the background, like they've been pasted on, in a way that you just kind of accept with low-res graphics.

However, I don't know why, but I don't really like the chibi style either. Probably oversaturation or just plain ol' taste. But they work better with the background (EDIT: standing on water notwithstanding; sure, it's the same in the SNES, but again, low-bit is more forgiving for whatever reason), so I'd put my vote there (if this were a matter of voting :P).

 

Also, Anthus, if you hadn't said that that was a screenshot from the game, I'd have assumed you put the portrait up over the gameplay, or that this was from an ad or something. Although I've seen that text box issue waay too many times. Looks tacky and also just really lazy. If you've made art assets, you might as well make at least a text box to fit with it - even the Pokemon white tubing would probably work. I'm sure there's some freely available low-res typefaces as well, if you can't make your own.

 

I should point out, all of these techniques can probably work if you use them right. Best idea I can come up with is comedy, though. Monkey Island 3 has a moment of that.

Speaking of Monkey Island, I do really like the first two games' hand drawn graphical remasters. I prefer low-bit sprites, but that's also just taste. The hand-drawn ones work really well for my taste.

 

Anyway, those are my kind of rambly and uninformed thoughts.


Edited by klop422, 02 September 2018 - 04:43 PM.

  • Anthus likes this

#7 Koh

Koh

    Tamer Koh

  • Members
  • Real Name:Dominic
  • Location:Monsbaiya, Virginia

Posted 02 September 2018 - 06:43 PM

That's precisely why the PSP remakes of FF1 2 and 4, and also Pokemon FireRed are great I say.  They look much better than the originals, but it doesn't just stop there.  They also improved and/or expanded on what was there with the gameplay and added additional polish.  For example, unlike the original NES version of FF1, the PSP version allows you to dash, which cuts down on time spent walking from point A to point B tremendously, has the bonus content from the GBA version, and even more content exclusive to this version.  Pokemon FireRed has all the mechanical advances of Pokemon at the time (Except Day and Night...), so you have Abilities, held items, and so on, all of which add additional layer to the base that Pokemon Red provided. 

 

4gfJBqw.png

Look at all the attention to detail here, you can tell they cared~

 

I don't think these games are given a "pass" though, just because of those facts.  They genuinely look good, and feel like the creators put care into them, rather than just pushing them out quickly and not improving on anything.   There's also more I wanted to show that also did great.

 

 

wonderboy-comparison.jpg

ducktales-remastered-comparison.jpg

 

I'd say raw ports are lazier than remakes, because they almost never do anything to improve on the original, not even in graphics.  Virtual Console would fall into this category.  Literally releasing the same game from 20 years ago with no improvements is silly to me.  They obviously aren't going to hold up in the same way anymore, like say Zelda 1.  I will always appreciate and love Zelda 1, but to release it again in its exact state from 30 years ago wouldn't appeal to me in the slightest.


Edited by Koh, 02 September 2018 - 06:52 PM.


#8 Deedee

Deedee

    Bug Frog Dragon Girl

  • Moderators
  • Real Name:Deedee
  • Pronouns:She / Her, They / Them
  • Location:Canada

Posted 02 September 2018 - 07:45 PM

4gfJBqw.png

Look at all the attention to detail here, you can tell they cared~

Nice style clash there. I agree, style clash makes games pretty, just look at DoR and how well the NPCs blend in with the environment!



#9 Norzan

Norzan

    Adept

  • Members

Posted 02 September 2018 - 10:19 PM

Yeah, i wouldn't use the PSP remake of FF4 (and the PSP remake of FF 1 and FF2) as an example of a great remake style. There's several parts of the game where there's style clash, just like the one above. The NPC sprites completely clash with stuff like buildings and other things.

 

Style clashing is easily one of the things that bother me the most and these remakes are rather big culprits of this.


Edited by Norzan, 02 September 2018 - 10:22 PM.


#10 Geoffrey

Geoffrey

    Chosen One

  • Members

Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:08 AM

My opinion on remakes is the same as my opinion on original games: If the gameplay is three-dimensional, then use three-dimensional graphics; if, however, the gameplay is two-dimensional, why are you wasting resources?



#11 klop422

klop422

    Guess I'm full of monsters and treasure

  • Members
  • Real Name:Not George
  • Location:Planet Earth

Posted 03 September 2018 - 05:33 AM

I will say that that last image of FF4 works better than some of the others, though Kain looks - again - like he's tacked on. It's like older cartoons, where the stuff that's going to move is drawn separately from the background, except there's no historical charm to it.

I must be in a minority when I say that I'm not a massive fan of the really high-res hand-drawn stuff like the Ducktales remake or whatever it is above that. I like it, but I like the old-style look more. I played Worms on Switch recently, and I just really like the look of Worms Armageddon more. Not sure what it is.

 

Really what I think I've been getting at is that some graphical styles have charm. When updating these, often you lose that charm. Sometimes you add new charm - whether that works depends on the game. Pokémon does this well (graphically at least; I tend not to like the music as much, with some exceptions). Sure, the charm isn't quite the same as when they first appeared, but it's still Pokémon. Probably one of the reasons why they make the new generation start before doing remakes :P.



#12 Koh

Koh

    Tamer Koh

  • Members
  • Real Name:Dominic
  • Location:Monsbaiya, Virginia

Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:35 AM

I think you guys are to be honest, not that that's a problem.

 

In reviews and such about the PSP remakes for example, the graphics are the first things that are praised, especially FF4. The DS remake of FF4 was much more divisive than the PSP remake also, not just because of the graphics, but also the core gameplay change that makes it different from every other version of FF4.

 

When it came to Secret of Mana PS4 though, the graphics are the first thing that's criticized.  Some love it, some hate it, but the major thing they all point out is with 3D, you expect certain things to hold true, like Lip Synchronization when the characters are talking, which doesn't exist in this remake.  Also, when it came to Adventures of Mana, the low poly look made the world look less natural than the older 2D Mobile remake (i.e. the river edges there, it looks more natural, whereas in Adventures of Mana, it's a solid 3D cube edge). 

 

With 2D you're able to get away with more things than you can in 3D, so when things make the leap to 3D and don't close those gaps, it comes across as odd.



#13 klop422

klop422

    Guess I'm full of monsters and treasure

  • Members
  • Real Name:Not George
  • Location:Planet Earth

Posted 03 September 2018 - 11:07 AM

With 2D you're able to get away with more things than you can in 3D, so when things make the leap to 3D and don't close those gaps, it comes across as odd.

I'd argue that, even in 2D, the more realistic you make it look, the fewer things you can get away with. If I were to use photgraphs for backgrounds and take pictures of myself in front of a green screen in all the positions Mario's in in the original SMB (that's about 20 frames), it'd look really silly.

Of course, the PSP is nowhere near that, but the same kind of thing applies to me. In any case, all my talk about 'charm' is still there in the PSP version, but the foreground and background graphics don't fit together nearly as well as I'd like.

In any case, I've put forward my viewpoint anyway, and I don't have much more to say here. Except that I accidentally called Cecil 'Kain' in my last post, and I should know better. Never have I been so disappointed in myself.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't think the fore- and backgrounds of the PSP graphics here are stylistically mismatched (that's not what I meant by 'tacked on'), but to me it looks obvious that the backgrounds are a separate thing. Like if I print out a photograph and tack pictures of myself on to it. I think it might be the lighting that's the issue for me.


Edited by klop422, 03 September 2018 - 11:11 AM.


#14 NoeL

NoeL

    Legend

  • Members
  • Real Name:Jerram

Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:56 PM

Style >>>>>>> 2D/3D. 3D FFA and SOM look bad because they have shit art, not because they're 3D. FF4 on DS looks great though, IMO. Likewise, the 2D remakes of FFA look great because they have great art, not because they're 2D. In general though, I prefer nice low-res pixel art (320x240 max).

 

The PSP overworld shot that Koh posted looks crappy though, because crappy art. Why does Kain look so stupid?



#15 Koh

Koh

    Tamer Koh

  • Members
  • Real Name:Dominic
  • Location:Monsbaiya, Virginia

Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:33 PM

We're not going to agree on the PSP FFs, but I think we can definitely all agree on the mobile remakes of FF5 and FF6 looking like trash, lol.

Final-Fantasy-VI-Screenshot.jpg

 

It's like they put in way less effort into the sprites for these two, which is unfortunate because these two games deserved way more.  So yeah I agree Noel,it's not just a matter of 2D vs 3D, as even updated 2D can look god awful.  All they had to do was try as hard as they did with FF1 , FF2 and FF4, and people would've been happy.  It's actually kinda funny, seeing almost every review of FF6 on Steam saying how ugly the game is.  

 

You know, in hindsight, it's reminding me just how overall lackluster the graphics of FF4 and FF5 on SNES feel compared to other games on the system.  They look like NES games with a more expansive palette, rather than SNES games.


Edited by Koh, 03 September 2018 - 07:36 PM.



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users