40 replies to this topic

[Dawnlight]

In Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass, instead of Heart Container pieces, Link was given full Heart Containers instead, which makes me wonder should a quest always go under a Heart Container piece system?

[SpacemanDan]

I actually just finished a quest in which you do not get HCPs at all, since the overworld was small, and there weren't even 9 dungeons! This essentially meant that virtually every screen would need one, so I decided to swap them for HCs and make them harder to get, that way, they're a little more valuable.

Personally, in a bigger quest where the above isn't an issue, I'd say a mix is always nice. Make some hard side quests that yield a heart container, and easier ones that give pieces instead. Though I wouldn't mind seeing a bigger quest give out containers exclusively; it makes each one worth all the more.

[Adem]

I prefer HCPs. At around the same times, I got all the HCP in Ocarina of Time, and all the HC in Spirit Tracks. (Both were done in a little over a week--including playing through the game from the beginning--if that matters to anybody.) The feeling of accomplishment after obtaining all of the hearts in Ocarina of Time was far greater than that of obtaining them all in Spirit Tracks.

And for the record, I hate it when you have to buy a HCP/HC. Stupidest thing ever. (Though that was slightly off topic.)

I've been using too many parenthesis lately... (Also off topic...)

[Russ]

Depends. If the quest is big, use pieces and hide lots of them. If you have a big sidequest, you can put a full heart container at the end, but having pieces scattered everywhere is better than a few hidden full containers, in my opinion.

[Moosh]

I prefer heart containers as opposed to pieces. I find that no matter the overworld size, pieces are too easy to find. I prefer having full containers but making the player work to find them.

[lightdark]

I like HCP's better. It makes it feel like a better zelda game.

[ChunkeM0nkey]

I think heart container pieces are better for things like the over world, and houses.
And full heart containers in like mini dungeons and side quests seems more rewarding and fair.

[Radien]

I think heart pieces are stupid. I regret their introduction into the series. The benefit an individual HCP gives you is infinitesimal. You only get any real, permanent benefit every fourth container (or fifth in Twilight Princess, which is even dumber). And even the benefit of focusing so much on your life meter is questionable unless fighting is much harder than, for instance, most of the 3D Zelda games.

I am in favor of full Heart Containers. But not just that. I am in favor of not focusing so much on life meters. Having a larger life meter isn't more fun if you're doing just fine already staying alive. Along with full Heart Containers, I encourage using side quests to award the player new items. ZC has so many of them that there's really no reason not to reward the player with something like a new Candle or a better Glove rather than a measly HCP.

So yeah. That should tell you what to expect from DoR. Additionally, collectible token items, but ZC isn't designed for that so you need to pull some strings if you want to do anything like that.

[Nathaniel]

Full heart containers, and no more than 16. Otherwise, you are trying to have too many little upgrades scattered throughout the quest. I like huge and less frequent rewards over tons of tiny ones of the same kind.

[Dawnlight]

Full heart containers, and no more than 16. Otherwise, you are trying to have too many little upgrades scattered throughout the quest. I like huge and less frequent rewards over tons of tiny ones of the same kind.

Agreed. It's less rewarding to get pieces of heart compared to a full container. In fact, Spirit Tracks was the first Zelda game where I tried to get all of the Heart Containers.

[Sheik]

Personally, I like collecting HCPs better than collecting HC, but in Echoes of Aurelia, we also have the player collec whole HCs, because of the seize of the quest.
Yet, I wouldn't mind if a sidequest was rewared with a whole HC. That'd actually be quite nice and would give a feeling of achivement.

[Jupiter]

This question gets to the heart of some core beliefs I have about Zelda and what it should be.

I do not think a simple, binary evaluation is sufficient. Full hearts or pieces? It depends.

I agree with what most people are saying about a heart piece being a paltry reward for a side quest. (And completely agree that the 5 heart pieces in Twilight Princess are just annoying, especially given that managing your health is not a major factor in that game...neither are rupees...nor bombs...nor arrows...and frankly, I think that is bad quest design.)

That doesn't mean one should definitely have full heart containers and not heart pieces...even if you have a short quest, if you scatter heart pieces about your overworld in places that don't require an undue amount of time and searching to find, that can be fun. Yes less frequent, bigger rewards are good...but so are rapid, smaller rewards. I've started a (short) quest where in the first area there are 12 screens (basically every screen) where you get a heart piece for killing a somewhat difficult enemy...I want to get the player up to a certain level of health quickly and toss out some rewards while the player is getting their bearings and exploring the first area of the map. But I also have a mini-dungeon where you are rewarded with a full heart, in addition to two items, for exploring it...why not? There are so many items and upgrades in ZC you can keep the momentum going in a short quest by making use of them. In fact, collecting items is the momentum of a Zelda game...generally speaking, you make forward progress by collecting things, be it a bracelet, a hookshot, or a piece of the triforce. The job of the quest designer is to manage that process and keep the momentum going.

But I think you want to match the reward to the effort. Hiding increasingly fractured heart pieces in difficult, time-consuming locations is just not fun. (And don't get me started on collectibles...In TP, why in Zeus's name would I want spend hours looking for some fraking bugs to get a wallet upgrade to carry more rupees that I don't need anyway--If I collect something, I want to get something awesome for it.) It's also wouldn't be very rewarding to get a full heart piece for killing an Octorok...

This brings me to another important point: making the life meter (and other things like rupees, bombs, etc) matter is part of good quest design. IMO, the original LoZ is still the best game in the series because it does the best job of this. You could go almost anywhere in the game from the beginning except that you are not strong enough...your lack of hearts actually keeps you out of the mountains for a good while...I found level six long before I had enough hearts and a strong enough sword to beat it. And the fact that your health meter matters is what makes getting extra hearts so fun in that game. The fact that you actually are often short on rupees in that game is what makes finding a 100 rupee cave such a boon.

At it's best, Zelda synthesizes puzzle solving and action...it's about exploration and challenge and both should be going on at once.

Anyway, sorry for the essay, but to sum up, my thoughts on heart pieces verses hearts--and just item management in general--are to follow these rules.

1.) Use items to propel the player through the game
2.) Make the items matter; make items fill a gameplay need
3.) Match the effort to the reward

Edited by Jupiter, 17 April 2010 - 01:29 AM.

[Joe123]

In Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass

Don't forget The Minish Cap, it's better and it did it first ^^

[DarkFlameWolf]

I personally like HCPs, its more stuff for me to hide in the quest. XD

[cosmofield]

HCPs would be favorable in a big quest but I rather like the regular HPs, because you'll get your reward on-the-fly after a tough battle/exploration instead of collecting a whole set. Obviously the HPs should be very well hidden, not reachable without some in-game clues. ^_^