121 replies to this topic

[Lightwulf]

Okay, I finally found it. It was a little farther to the right than I had previously clicked. (Plus, I was mainly looking on the A+B passive subscreens.)

Yeah, all the A+B passive subscreens don't put that there. I notice there's a checkbox for "Only Selected", so it doesn't differentiate between "Only Selected, A button" and "Only Selected, B button". Until they add that feature, looks like we're out of luck on this.

[Cukeman]

This post has been edited by Cukeman

Edited by Cukeman, 26 February 2016 - 12:42 PM.

[Giggidy]

Question time: Do the sprites take up the level csets, or are we free to edit those?

[Cukeman]

This post has been edited by Cukeman

Edited by Cukeman, 26 February 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Giggidy]

That's... pretty lame. Any color loss?

[Cukeman]

I spent a lot of time looking at the MC overworlds. You simply can't fit all of the colors that
The Minish Cap overworlds use into the level dependent CSets.

Edited by Cukeman, 11 August 2012 - 05:57 AM.

[Giggidy]

I spent a lot of time looking at the MC overworlds. You simply can't fit all of the colors that
The Minish Cap uses into the level dependent CSets.

Except, you know, I've been doing it literally for years now? 64 colors is *more* than enough.

[Cukeman]

 I don't know what put that thought into your head. I've counted easily more than 64 colors in multiple areas.

The glowing fire trail sprites had literally two dozen colors between yellow-orange and orange-red. No palette on earth needs that many oranges and reds.

I have no idea why we are arguing about facts though. If you wish it I can and will post images from various areas in MC that exceed the limit of 64 colors.

Also I have to wonder if you've considered sprites at all. If you reserve 4 CSets to level palettes, you are left with precious little to make decent looking sprites with.

Traditional CSet swapping limited my colors too much, so I developed my own system of 8-Bit Color that has drastically improved my results. My palette structure is absolutely free to use (or not to use).

Edited by Cukeman, 05 May 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[Giggidy]

I don't know what put that thought into your head. I've counted easily more than 64 colors in multiple areas.
Swapping CSets is GUARANTEED color loss as far as MC is concerned.
I started my MC tileset using level dependent CSet swapping and quickly realized this.
Using 8-Bit Color Depth to eliminate CSet swapping is truly the only way to prevent color loss.

That depends on what you count as an area color, and what you count as an acceptable loss. TMC has a really, really bad habit of using what are basically sprite palettes for world objects. I'm not proposing you try to cram THESE things into the level palettes.

TMC also only very rarely uses the GBA's 8-bit color mode. What it does use it for are some very static, non-modular environments (like the minish areas) that most questmakers wouldn't be interested in using anyway. They can safely be tossed away.

Finally, because TMC uses the GBA's 4-bit mode most of the time, there's lots of overlap in colors (but a lot of not-quite-overlapping colors with very very tiny differences, like HSV being off by as little as 2 values). There's a lot of places where you can merge the colors from two different csets (like the tree greens and the tall grass/bush greens, as well as most browns), and with a tiny bit of palette tweaking you can have things look way better than they did before.

With these limitations in mind, yes, it's absolutely possible.


Anyway the great big problem I have with full 8-bit color is that you're stuck with it. Decide that this particular tree doesn't look good with the shade of greens already in the palette? Too bad, there's nothing you can do about it without screwing up the rest of the set. This is also much more likely than you think, as world objects tend to look hideous with colors intended for sprites (and vice-versa). The ability to change the colors of tiles in a particular area to fit a particular mood or style is way, way, WAAAAAAAY too powerful of a tool to ever dream of giving up. So powerful I can't really think of anything that I would give it up for.

Also I have to wonder if you've considered sprites at all. If you reserve 4 CSets to level palettes, you
are left with precious little to make decent looking sprites with.

MC has so many colors in fact, that ZQuest's CSet swapping is obsolete when it comes to
mimicking a game of this type. CSet swapping limited my colors too much, so I developed my
own system of 8-Bit Color that avoids swapping and has drastically improved my results.
I offer you my palette structure absolutely free to use (or not to use).

Sprites, I'm not entirely sure how to handle. The problem is most of TMC's sprites are unusable in ZC without heavy scripting (like most of the items and every last one of the enemies excepting one). Exactly what you're willing to bother scripting and what you'd rather use instead is very much a matter for individual games, so while ripping the sprites into sheets for those who are interested is useful... packing them into a pre-built tileset not so much.

Unless you intend to pre-package all the necessary scripts too, in which case, that's great! I'm still not terribly interested in your project, but at least now I can see it as something other than a complete waste of time.

Finally I must point out that you don't have to use my .qst file or palette structure at all.
You are free to extract the images you need, and fit them into whatever type of palette you choose.
Free sprites pulled from MC, organized and ready to recolor? How can you possibly lose?

Are there any good-looking sprites that aren't from the base game, or this sheet?



Otherwise, I already have everything I need, thanks.

Edited by Giggidy, 11 August 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[King Harkinian]

Update time again. I've got most of the subscreens done:



There are still a few additions and slight changes I need to make,
such as a map frame, some texturing, etc. and I haven't done the
charging Link sprites yet, but it's very close to the first release.

The first release won't included tiles, enemies, or NPCs. Those will be added later on.
I've already completed all the items, misc sprites, and Link actions (except charging).

That subscreen looks amazing. Keep up the good work.

[Cukeman]

QUOTE(Giggidy @ Aug 11 2012, 05:17 AM)

That depends on what you count as an area color, and what you count as an acceptable loss. TMC has a really, really bad habit of using what are basically sprite palettes for world objects. I'm not proposing you try to cram THESE things into the level palettes.

TMC also only very rarely uses the GBA's 8-bit color mode. What it does use it for are some very static, non-modular environments (like the minish areas) that most questmakers wouldn't be interested in using anyway. They can safely be tossed away.

Finally, because TMC uses the GBA's 4-bit mode most of the time, there's lots of overlap in colors (but a lot of not-quite-overlapping colors with very very tiny differences, like HSV being off by as little as 2 values). There's a lot of places where you can merge the colors from two different csets (like the tree greens and the tall grass/bush greens, as well as most browns), and with a tiny bit of palette tweaking you can have things look way better than they did before.

With these limitations in mind, yes, it's absolutely possible.
Anyway the great big problem I have with full 8-bit color is that you're stuck with it. Decide that this particular tree doesn't look good with the shade of greens already in the palette? Too bad, there's nothing you can do about it without screwing up the rest of the set. This is also much more likely than you think, as world objects tend to look hideous with colors intended for sprites (and vice-versa). The ability to change the colors of tiles in a particular area to fit a particular mood or style is way, way, WAAAAAAAY too powerful of a tool to ever dream of giving up. So powerful I can't really think of anything that I would give it up for.
Sprites, I'm not entirely sure how to handle. The problem is most of TMC's sprites are unusable in ZC without heavy scripting (like most of the items and every last one of the enemies excepting one). Exactly what you're willing to bother scripting and what you'd rather use instead is very much a matter for individual games, so while ripping the sprites into sheets for those who are interested is useful... packing them into a pre-built tileset not so much.

Unless you intend to pre-package all the necessary scripts too, in which case, that's great! I'm still not terribly interested in your project, but at least now I can see it as something other than a complete waste of time.

 

 

Oh, I see. You didn't mean that 64 colors were enough, you meant that you could reduce
the overworld areas to 64 colors. That's called accepting color loss. I'm trying to avoid color
loss so, yeah, the compromise of blending similar colors to fit a total of 64 is something I
totally wanted to avoid because the results weren't good enough for me.

As far as being "STUCK" with my colors, the reality is that Level CSet swapping
doesn't actually give you any more colors to work with since you can only have
up to 256 colors in ZC at any given time (less when you consider that CSets 12,
13, and 14 aren't meant to be used - at least not easily).

Level CSet swapping simply means that you GIVE UP the colors used in the previous
area in order to use EXCHANGE them for different colors in the next area. So you're
not technically GAINING anything. You're just preventing objects from the previous
area appearing in the new area in their native colors. Which is fine when you're
working with older graphics.

Truth is Level CSet swapping doesn't display any more colors at a time than my setup does,
and if you don't like some of my colors you can always adjust them to suit your own tastes.

My palette started as a way to represent something from every color range,
and every gradient has at least 10 values between black & white. But from that point I adjusted my colors
to represent what I saw most in MC. So my color choices are at least based
on those found in The Minish Cap.

It's true that sprites are more vibrant than background objects, that is why half of my palette is dedicated
to colors that aren't as saturated, yet these colors share their light and dark extremes with the vibrant colors,
so that you aren't missing out on values (and shared values in the extremities are not noticeable anyways).

The main reasons I "gave up" traditional level CSet swapping are 1) not enough colors left to represent sprites
and 2) I didn't want to use your method of reducing overworlds to 64 colors. In some areas it looks
halfway decent, but in others it reduces the graphics to NES or SNES-like quality because of the lack of values.

I would MUCH rather have to SLIGHTLY shift the hue of an object than lose most of the subtle shading and
wind up with hard rough edges that look terrible. The ability to have subtle shading is a tool FAR more powerful
than Level CSet swapping that I would NEVER be satisfied to give up. I'm not about to lose the dynamic
depth, smoothness and reality subtle shading can give by cramming objects into 64 colors and making them
look like something off the NES or SNES. That would be absolutely ludicrous.

As you said, you didn't really address sprites, I did, and have been very pleased with the results.
Scripting is not necessary with my palette, which is just another plus.

It's totally fine to offer the public a different version of the MC tileset with a palette setup other
than the one I'm using, but I wouldn't dream of going back to swapping level CSets unless I was
working with SNES, GB or NES graphics. Subtle shading is what makes MC look so smooth.

 

QUOTE(Giggidy @ Aug 11 2012, 05:17 AM)

Are there any good-looking sprites that aren't from the base game, or this sheet?



Otherwise, I already have everything I need, thanks.

 

 

There are quite a bit of items that I made from scratch, some that I imported
from FS/FSA, and some that I edited from MC/FS/FSA. I don't really want to
make a big list, but you can take a look and decide for yourself what looks good.

Edited by Cukeman, 05 May 2016 - 02:16 PM.

[Giggidy]

Oh, I see. You didn't mean that 64 colors were enough, you meant that you could reduce
the overworld areas to 64 colors. That's called accepting color loss. I'm trying to avoid color
loss so, yeah, the compromise of blending similar colors to fit a total of 64 is something I
totally wanted to avoid because the results weren't good enough for me.

As far as being "STUCK" with my colors, the reality is that Level CSet swapping
doesn't actually give you any more colors to work with since you can only have
up to 256 colors in ZC at any given time (less when you consider that CSets 12,
13, and 14 aren't meant to be used - at least not easily).

Level CSet swapping simply means that you GIVE UP the colors used in the previous
area in order to use EXCHANGE them for different colors in the next area. So you're
not technically GAINING anything. You're just preventing objects from the previous
area appearing in the new area in their native colors. Which is fine when you're
working with older graphics.

Truth is Level CSet swapping doesn't display any more colors at a time than my setup does,
and if you don't like some of my colors you can always adjust them to suit your own tastes.

Alright, I know you said you didn't want to continue this conversation, but I just have to correct something here.

The advantage of level csets has absolutely nothing to do with gaining more colors to use at a time. I'm well aware that's impossible. The advantage is in flexibility, not in raw color depth.

Let's say I've built a forest-ish area the player visits in the summer:



Then I decide I want the player to be able to come back to this area later on in the year during the early months of winter. So I pick out a few nice new colors to give to the area to give it that wintery feel.



How do you do this if you don't have level csets? The long and short of it is, you can't. You're absolutely screwed and there's nothing you can do about it. You're stuck with whatever colors you pick in the beginning, and you have to choke it down like a bitch no matter how much it hurts.

(And don't say you can just edit the main palette as needed because this inevitably leads to unintended side effects. You modified the blues a little to make the snowy trees look good? Oops, now all the water everywhere is fucked up!)

That's my problem with your palette setup.

[Cukeman]

I can easily have forest and water screens in different seasons, colors and times of day. All I have to do is duplicate tiles and color them differently. I never suggested changing the main palette for that purpose.

EDIT: BTW one thing I can do that you (probably) can't is have a few evergreens in my autumn forest .
I can have objects that don't match the overall color of a scene. Good for man-made objects, foreign objects,
and simply for variety.

But y'know, whatever. I'm doing what I have found works best. You are free to avoid my methods.

Edited by Cukeman, 05 May 2016 - 02:17 PM.

[Zemious]

I'm lurking and don't want to download ZQuest, or this tileset to see your progress...... can you please post more screenshots othert han a 256x392 image of "Link", and some items?

[Cukeman]

Hmm, I might be able to record some footage eventually. Right now my time is better spent
working on the tileset. So you can wait and see if I make a video, or you can choose the fast
and easy way (downloading ZQuest, and the latest version of the tileset).

Edited by Cukeman, 26 February 2016 - 12:59 PM.