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Do you prefer a "mute" or a talking hero?


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Poll: May Link say something?

This is a public poll. Other members will be able to see which options you chose

I decided to give Link own Message Strings, during dialogues. Do you like a talking Link in your quests or do you prefer a "mute" Hero?

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#1 Bagu

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 02:56 AM

Just wanted to know your opinion...



#2 Shane

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 03:11 AM

I prefer Link being mute, but it's not the end of the world if a fan game allows him to speak. But with non-Link main characters, I think they are better off being able to speak, to show personality and what makes them different from Link.


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#3 Bagu

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 03:18 AM

...as long as it isn't something like that ;)

https://www.youtube....h?v=jBqR2KMvl50


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#4 Russ

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 06:54 AM

There's a difference between a mute hero and a silent hero. For mute heroes, my go-to example is a game called Owlboy. The protagonist is mute, yet is far from silent. From his actions and his facial expressions, he makes her thoughts and personality come through loud and clear; he's a character who just happens to be unable to speak out loud. Most instances of Link, on the other hand, are silent heroes, blank slates for the player to project themselves onto. Mute heroes, when written well, are super interesting. Silent heroes are not. Don't do silent heroes.


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#5 Bagu

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 09:22 AM

There's a difference between a mute hero and a silent hero. For mute heroes, my go-to example is a game called Owlboy. The protagonist is mute, yet is far from silent. From his actions and his facial expressions, he makes her thoughts and personality come through loud and clear; he's a character who just happens to be unable to speak out loud. Most instances of Link, on the other hand, are silent heroes, blank slates for the player to project themselves onto. Mute heroes, when written well, are super interesting. Silent heroes are not. Don't do silent heroes.

Definitly true! ...great statement



#6 Soga

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 10:18 AM

There's a difference between a mute hero and a silent hero. For mute heroes, my go-to example is a game called Owlboy. The protagonist is mute, yet is far from silent. From his actions and his facial expressions, he makes her thoughts and personality come through loud and clear; he's a character who just happens to be unable to speak out loud. Most instances of Link, on the other hand, are silent heroes, blank slates for the player to project themselves onto. Mute heroes, when written well, are super interesting. Silent heroes are not. Don't do silent heroes.

Mario in his RPGs come to mind as an excellent way to do mute heroes. I love the way Mario pantomimes, even to the ridiculous extent in Super Mario RPG that he actually turns into the thing he's pantomiming!


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#7 Mani Kanina

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 02:25 PM

I'm nulling my vote, neither is better than the other and I got no preference. It really depends on how well written the given game is, I have seen both done well and both done poorly.

I don't really have preference for one or the other as long as it's used for good effect in the narrative being told.

I do disagree with Russ on the notion that silent hero can't be done well or be interesting, and the barrier between the classification of a mute hero versus a silent one is rather thin. There are cases where it's obvious, literally every mainline pokemon game has an silent hero, as mentioned earlier, mario in the mario RPG games is very obviously a mute hero. But looking at something like Samus in the metroid series and it gets very complicated, in fact, she even speaks in two games (Super briefly at the start and Fusion at certain intermissions as well as at the end) (no I don't give a shit about the garbage mess that is other M). But in the majority of the games where she is the main character she never speaks and practically never emotes out of the ending cutscene. That absolutely seems to fit the definition of a silent protagonist, yet it's very different from the case of Pokemon where the main character is essentially an empty slate. Most fans agree on, even before fusion came out, that she has very specific character traits (which were generally confirmed to be true, outside of Other M's shitty retconing).

Like, I really feel it's a lot more complicated than Mute heroes good, silent ones bad (and voiced/written ones elsewhere I guess). Where does that leave the entire notion of the CRPGs? Where you literally make the character you want to role-play as in the first place? They'd generally have to by definition be silent in order to not interfere with the character you, the player wants to roleplay as, which is critical to a lot of those games. I also don't feel that Link being a silent protagonist have negatively impacted my experience with the zelda series. Even though I absolutely do appreciate what they did with Link in Twilight Princess in the few subtle scenes where you do get a sense of his personality, it fits the rather narrative heavy focus of that game.

To me, a silent protagonist is only bad when it hurts the narrative of the game, but a lot of similar pitfalls exists for when dealing with a mute protagonist too. If a scene or setting obviously call for your character to speak up but they just stand there and look dumb, then you got a problem. (Looking at you, modern pokemon games). Likewise, it feels absolutely stupid when the decision was made to make the main character silent, but then write in a character whose only purpose is to be there and speak for the hero, this is something even the mario RPG games do to a larger or lesser extent depending on the game (generally not a problem in the first two, since it's your fully fleshed out party of other characters chatting, less good in sticker star, etc). Heck, that last problem even exists in the Zelda series in Skyward Sword, which had a fair few cinematic scenes where it felt like Link should talk, but didn't, and ended with Fi or or someone else say something instead. Contrast to Breath of the Wild, which actually did a lot of really good backstory as to why Link rarely speaks in that game, and didn't have many (any? I can't think of any good examples atm) scenes where it felt like it hurt the story telling.


This got a bit long winded, but I think it's a complex topic that ties into story writing pretty deeply. I don't think there is a catch all formula for what to do, and it really depends on what narrative you want to tell and how you want to tell it. Just do whatever approach you want well.


Edited by Mani Kanina, 05 August 2020 - 02:28 PM.

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#8 Bagu

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 04:01 PM

I'm nulling my vote, neither is better than the other and I got no preference. It really depends on how well written the given game is, I have seen both done well and both done poorly.

I don't really have preference for one or the other as long as it's used for good effect in the narrative being told....

Mani, your statement is plausible.
...I didn't expect to start such an intressting debate, when I posted this poll.

I originally just wanted to know, what you prefer to use in your personal quest projects.

I really agree with Shane's opinion, that in a Zelda-based game, a non-Link main character
should better speak, to express the different personality.
But I can't say if talking, mute or silent heros are better than each other.

I decided to let Link speak, 'cause I wanted to create some funny dialogues,
with the companion (that I gave him in my quest), a fairy named "Breeze".
...inspired by the dialogues between the hero in TERRANIGMA and his companion, Fluffy.


Edited by Bagu, 06 August 2020 - 10:18 AM.

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#9 klop422

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 10:37 AM

I just wanna back up Mani Kanina's opinions as a fairly well-written expression of my exact feelings on the topic. I don't have an issue with silent protagonists (especially in games where the plot takes a backseat to the gameplay), but if it is a plot-centric game and your MC should react but just doesn't, it's pretty jarring.

 

imo, the best solution to 'projector screen' characters is to let the player make decisions when stuff is happening (whether that just be dialogue options or something more complicated) so that the player can project themselves through the in-game actions and not just their imaginations, but that probably takes a bit of fine-tuning at certain points, so you can't just take the plot off the rails (though I feel like a game where you can just take the plot off the rails would be amazing).

 

On the other hand, a good story where your MC(s) all have distinct and distinctive personalities and everything that happens makes complete sense is also pretty great. Even so, if you give the player no choice it can still be frustrating (depending on quite how story-driven the game is), so it still has to be made with care.

 

I guess a commonish compromise is to give your MC a handful of personalities that the player can then pick between. The simplest being between 'nice' and 'mean'. And the dialogue is picked based on the decisions you make.

 

If we're talking Zelda games specifically, then I'd be a little weirded out to hear Link speak in-game, the same way I'd find it odd to give Mario full-on dialogue, or to have full strings from your MC in Pokémon. But it's certainly not a deal-breaker, and if it fits whatever story you're telling (or you're using it for quality one-liners) then go for it.

 

(Speaking of one-liners, how about all the little quips when you get different sizes of Rupee in Link's Awakening? Are those Link's thoughts/monologue? Or is the Narrator quipping at you? I guess since the whole game is the Wind Fish's dream, he'd be the narrator? Except not at the end once you've beaten the final boss. I dunno.)


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#10 TheLegend_njf

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Posted 07 August 2020 - 11:39 AM

Mute hero and a villain that won't shut up.  :sweat:


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#11 Old-Skool

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 05:44 PM

I'm kind of in-between on this.

In many of the games, it seems Link *does* have speaking lines, but they are not pre-determined script like that of the NPCs. What I would support are the inclusion of dialogue options as seen in games like Ocarina of Time and Breath of the Wild.


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#12 Bagu

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 05:48 PM

(...)What I would support are the inclusion of dialogue options as seen in games like Ocarina of Time and Breath of the Wild.

100% agree



#13 Twilight Knight

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Posted 02 October 2020 - 04:13 AM

I agree that it does not really matter, as long as you do it well.

 

But I do want to say that it's absolutely horrible when the playable character speaks too much, especially when it's thinking out loud, it can get very annoying and you can feel very distant from the character.

I for example really had this problem with Horizon Zero Dawn, where the main character would continuously tell herself what to do. Got annoying rather quickly.

I think that when you let the main character talk, it shouldn't be too much and the character shouldn't be too opinionated about everything. Leave some room for the "role-playing" element.


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#14 Geoffrey

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Posted 04 October 2020 - 06:41 PM

...as long as it isn't something like that ;)

https://www.youtube....h?v=jBqR2KMvl50

I honestly take offense. This is high art.


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#15 Avaro

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Posted 08 October 2020 - 08:39 AM

Talking hero 100%. But not Link, cause he doesn't.

 

Basically what Shane said.


Edited by Avaro, 08 October 2020 - 08:39 AM.

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