326 replies to this topic

[TheLegend_njf]

You might lose a bit due to luck but with the right strategy victory is only a matter of time.

 

I wont judge because this is how you like things, and everybody's got a preference, But I care to elaborate the word luck in this example as a means to explain how I would personally design avoiding this being a factor as much as possible.

 

Even though I feel my reaction time is slower than average (300 milliseconds during a calm state and maybe 260/270 or higher in a focused state), it may be too fast for some other people. It boils down to the biology we are born with and slightly influenced by the practice that comes with age. Either way, when designing personally, I try to make my challenge dungeons as difficult as possible while at the same time eliminating as much luck as possible.

 

Luck, though, while I said before is necessary in challenge quests. I describe it as that bitter ingredient in a pot of soup, it can add a distinct flavor to the meal, but too much luck however, and it spoils the meal. But that's just my own personal preference. Everybody is different, and I'd say there are some people who feel you cannot possibly have challenge without a lot of RNG and that's completely fine for them, but I do tend to frown on that kind of design usually, especially when judging games I've paid a good $$$ for. Fangames are free, so I don't judge them as heavily for these things, a quest designer can design his quest however well he likes.  

[James24]

Dimentio - if you want to get a "feel" for an area, I suggest that you modify LoH:IE by giving yourself a gold ring or more hearts and use the "go to" cheat provided.  After that, you can try it "for real".  I tried your submission - kind of on the easy side for me I think.

 

NJF - yes, luck is a factor because enemy movement is based on a RNG, can't deny that.  I do my best to minimize it, but I don't see how it can be eliminated.  And yes, I fully agree with you about the $$$ argument.  When players are paying for a game - they are "the boss" and have every right to expect the devs to change things to please them.  When the players are not paying for a game - this doesn't hold anymore and developers are free to do as they please.

[Gleeok]

There should be a list somewhere of quests that are challenge-centric or casual-impared *cough*. Sometimes I get in the mood to play something, but then it's hard to find anything, I don't really keep up with new quests.

[TheLegend_njf]

There should be a list somewhere of quests that are challenge-centric or casual-impared *cough*. Sometimes I get in the mood to play something, but then it's hard to find anything, I don't really keep up with new quests.

Despite James thoughts about IOR. That game is still one of the hardest quests I ever played and by far the hardest quest I've beaten so far. It's worth looking at if you want a fun challenge. It's also a very large game, so it should keep you entertained for hours.

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 13 February 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[James24]

All I said about IOR was that I played through until the end of the first dungeon and found that it wasn't challenging so I stopped.  Now others have said that's where the difficulty picks up - so I don't know.  It could become challenging at that point and from the looks of the videos it certainly does appear that way.  I don't know.  Plus Evan said he beat LoH so that would indicate he's capable of writing and testing something that's very challenging.

[TheLegend_njf]

All I said about IOR was that I played through until the end of the first dungeon and found that it wasn't challenging so I stopped.  Now others have said that's where the difficulty picks up - so I don't know.  It could become challenging at that point and from the looks of the videos it certainly does appear that way.  I don't know.  Plus Evan said he beat LoH so that would indicate he's capable of writing and testing something that's very challenging.

 

Well, after beating Isle of Rebirth, and starting your quest (and seen a couple of Yloh's videos), I can assure you that your quest is probably harder. Isle of Rebirth has a bit of a difficulty curve, and it seems to be divided by levels.

 

I've always looked at it this way.

 

Level 1 - Level 3: Challenging for casuals, but not really that hard.

Level 4 - Level 6: Challenging for just about anybody, but not too bad.

Level 7 - Level 9: Difficulty amps up here, things do get hard at this point, but managable.

Level 10 - Level 12: Similar to Levels 7 through 9, but with new unique challenges, and meaner bosses. 

All Post-Content Material: Like seriously, "wtf Evan?!" Between Blighted Abyss, Boss Rush Challenge, and Tartaros, things get too chaotic for the average gamer at this point.

 

When I play your quest, it just throws the "WTF James!!" at you the first 2 or 3 screens. lol However, in some ways better than others. I haven't gotten far enough to really make up my mind. I do see that dark invisible maze to get the candle would be the thing that grumps most and normally turns most people off because first impressions do last unfortunately, and usually quests that start off with invisible mazes is often never received well. Fortunately, you can actually see the maze when you die, so that's the big difference. I hope I am not walking into a quest full of invisible shit where I have to somehow guess where everything is to (magic thinking, something humans don't possess). But I got a feeling that it's a bit more fairer than that.

Edited by NewJourneysFire, 13 February 2016 - 11:58 AM.

[James24]

The dark maze with instant-kill spikes was designed very specifically so you could see the spikes upon death.  If the room still remained dark after death then it'd just be too hard and the quest wouldn't be balanced correctly.  Trust me on this, I've spent a lot of time testing and balancing in order to ensure that whilst it remains insanely hard its as fair as I can humanly make it.  There is still luck involved however and I can't get rid of all of it but I have tried to minimize it.

 

You are absolutely correct when you say that first impressions last and indeed that was the whole purpose of that room.  LoH and LoH:IE break all the rules and norms of zelda play in order to achieve one paramount objective - deliciously evil difficulty.  Rather than waste people's time going through the first few levels with "normal" play and then suddenly ramping up the difficultly and breaking the rules I thought I'd be up-front with it - and the first room certainly achieves that aim.  I knew when I designed it that most players would reject the quest right there but if I didn't design it the way i did then I'd be depriving myself of what I consider fun and enjoyable.

[bigboylink]

There should be a list somewhere of quests that are challenge-centric or casual-impared *cough*. Sometimes I get in the mood to play something, but then it's hard to find anything, I don't really keep up with new quests.

 

I sorta recently got this urge too.  Off the top of my head, here are some "hard" quests.  "Hard" in quotes since not all of these are necessarily "challenge-centric" and some of these quests are obviously harder/easier than others.

 

LoH

Armageddon Quest, Armageddon Quest Forever

Isle of Rebirth Hero Mode

James Quest by Nightmare

Zelda 3 The Return of Ganon by Anarchy Balsac

Gleeok's Dungeon Impossible DX

Hidden Duality Extreme Mode (and I know there's another Darkflamewolf quest with an "extreme mode" but I can't remember which)

 

I'm sure I'm missing a lot - what else can we put on the list?

Edited by bigboylink, 06 March 2016 - 08:58 PM.

[James24]

There aren't really that many challenge quests.  Others that I would include: Origins Extreme, Liberation of Hyrule: Insanity Unchained, The Hero Without A Name by Jerome, demo.qst by Phantom Menace and our latest inclusion Mike's Fun House.

 

There's someone called MeleeWizard doing a LP of Liberation of Hyrule right now and he's some very interesting videos of the game if anyone is interested: 

https://www.youtube....xBQu3g&index=10

[Moosh]

 
GET
 

 
HECKIN
 

 
NAE-NAE'D
 

 
GANON!
 
Oh man, I finally went back and cleared this one. 20 hours of my life down the drain! But it feels good. It just simply had to be done. I'm pretty sure it topped my previous record in death counts as well. Some truly skillful bad play on display.
 
Insanity Unchained sometime within the next 30 years maybe? I dunno if I'm that crazy just yet.

[James24]

Congratulations on your win Moosh.  Given that you've now completed AQ and LoH, I extend an invitation to you to play LoH:IU.

 

So how did you end the story?  Did you give up your weapons for a democratic Hyrule or did you become its next dictator?

[Moosh]

Congratulations on your win Moosh.  Given that you've now completed AQ and LoH, I extend an invitation to you to play LoH:IU.

 

So how did you end the story?  Did you give up your weapons for a democratic Hyrule or did you become its next dictator?

I took the democracy ending. Interesting that it actually strips the weapons from your save file when you do, though it's easy enough to get them back.

[James24]

Somehow I thought you would choose that ending.  Yeah, you could probably get them back, but I consider that once a player reaches that victory screen that's the end of the game.  I never really tested things after that.

[Deedee]

sweet

baby

jesus

Beat Insanity Unchained. Most of the quest is decent, but there's some really questionable things. First of all, the game as intended is unbeatable; the left door in the triforce room won't let you go to the left, meaning you can't go backwards with the item cure as intended. There's a few other doors like this scattered throughout that act the same way. There's a lot of really cool new stuff, but it's soured by rehashes of returning crap from the original liberation; fortress 1 and 6 aren't fun at all even as a challenge; they're just tedious. Fortress 5 is still excellent, though there's a door leading off the map that I'm not sure what the deal is with. Fortress 3 is also pretty good. Fortress 7 has some serious signposting issues: the idea was cool when I realized what it wanted me to do, but when I first started it I thought it was a repeat of fortress 3 and tried grinding for rupees, and felt pretty aimless; the fairies are also more expensive than they really should be; I'd either reduce the flat rate on the fairies, or let the player carry 700 into the fortress (also gives a use for the 999 wallet, which is useless up until fortress 9). Fortress 6's invisible gohma room is not okay, that room is tedious and godawful, especially if you run out of rupees like I did once and have to do the entire gauntlet over again. I'm not sure that lens really needs a rupee cost; the tradeoff of having it assigned and holding it instead of a more useful item is already a big tradeoff as is. I like that you put a lot of the more questionable rooms from the first game like the wizzrobe corridor into single room challenges instead of part of a gauntlet that you need to do every time. I think the spike room in fortress 8 should be lit up if you come through while sword cured; you've already proven that you could do it once, it's just annoying to repeat every time. Ganon's contact damage is waaay too high given how you have no idea where they are at any given point and how fast they move. I don't like that you changed fortress 7's music from the kickass theme you used in the original to just the same midi that ouch used.

bunch of rambling aside, this was hard, but compared to Isle of Rebirth with 3 hearts, no magic upgrades, and green tunic, it was baby's first game.
 

[James24]

I thought you beat LoH:IU a long, long time ago Dimi?

 

Anyway to answer your queries.  The quest is definitely intended as beatable.  Maybe there's a bug with 2.55 or the later versions of 2.53.  LOH:IU has been painstakingly tested in one of the earlier versions of 2.53, but its not the final one.  To prove that everything is possible I made a playlist on youtube.  See:  https://youtu.be/Yjkgi5GSURI

 

Care to show me a video or screenshots of the room that you say won't let you win?  As far as I remember the only room with a triforce and a jinx cure that won't let you go through the left door is fortress 7.  And its intentional that you can't got through the left door on that screen, but you can still pick up the triforce if you know a neat trick.  You were never meant to go backwards with an item cure in fortress 7.

 

Of course things are rehashed from the original.  What would you expect when the title is the same except for the insanity unchained part of it?  Its supposed to be an improvement on the original game - namely scripting which was absent in the original.

 

The door leading of the map in fortress 5 is just a decoration.  Don't worry about it.

 

Fortress 7 is supposed to be the hardest fighting sequence in the game - even harder than fortress 9.  Hence the difficulty is in the shop.  Its designed to mimic the world of business which is mean, unforgiving and brutal.  Each enemy is a customer and they will pay you money when you kill them and collect the rupees.  You use these rupees to pay your supplier for jinx cures, bombs and health.  If your income is greater than your expenditure, then your business is profitable and you will eventually be rewarded with the triforce.  In such a scenario, you need to constantly serve your customers and spend very little on your supplies.  Are you a good enough soldier to manage it?  Too many mistakes and you'll go bankrupt and have to restart. 

 

The big wallet is still useful even when the limit is set to 500.  Simply because if you're doing well, you can build up a surplus instead of being capped at 500.  And this surplus can be used if/when you stumble and make a few mistakes.  And yeah, the balance has been finely tuned including the shop prices.  I don't want to destroy it and I don't want to make a lite mide.

 

In Fortress 6, you are supposed to reach that gohma room with enough rupees to spare.  That means you can't use the lens too much.  You should only be using the lens when absolutely necessary.  Once again, I like to play my game brutally hard and so the balance has been designed that way.

 

The issue of difficulty balance is something that's not really possible for me to fix given that this is a free game.  I make my difficulty balance to suit my tastes and I have absolutely no idea what anyone else's difficulty tastes are.  The only way I can find out what someone else's difficulty tastes are is if they extensively playtest the game with me.  And I don't think anyone will extensively playtest my game so its not really possible to design a game to please others.  The best I can do for everyone else is to make the game with no password so people can go in and fine tune the difficulty to suit their own preferences.

 

Isle of Rebirth wasn't designed to be played with 3 hearts I think.  Anyone can artificially make a game hard by putting artificial restrictions but will it be a "fun" hard?  Will it still be possible?  LoH:IU is impossible with 3 hearts.  I already know one room you'd never beat in a million years with 3 hearts.

 

Anyway, well done on beating LoH:IU.  I offer you my congratulations.