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#1 Moosh

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 02:16 PM

There's a bit of a gap in ZC's difficulty curve when using the default enemies. Usually it hits me at around the level 5/6 area that I'm using a lot of blue darknuts and wizzrobes as my main dungeon enemies, but a lot of the stronger default enemies in ZC tend to be a bit excessive. Not a lot of the stronger default enemies are suitable to be just a regular enemy sprinkled throughout a dungeon. So I figured, if the ZC defaults aren't good enough, why don't we just make some new (unofficial) defaults?
 
I'm personally not the best at balancing enemies in the editor and I can't imagine I'm the only one. So the idea here is we suggest stats for premade custom enemies and hopefully establish a consistent difficulty standard for tier 3+ enemies, for those who might want to use them.
 
For example:

  • Name: Darknut (L3)
  • Type: Walking Enemy
  • Weapon: (None)
  • O.Anim: Darknut (NES)
  • E.Anim: 4 Frame 4-Dir
  • Item Set: Magic + Life
  • HP: 24
  • Damage: 12
  • Hunger: 0
  • Random Rate: 3
  • Halt Rate: 0
  • Homing Factor: 180
  • Step Speed: 80
  • F.Rate: 16
  • Flags: Shielded in front, hammer can break shield

Suggestions don't necessarily have to be upgrades of existing enemies. You can post downgrades, sidegrades or even something totally new. I might edit some of the more popular ones into the OP.
 
Here's some information on what some of the enemy editor fields do, taken from ZCWiki:

  • HP: The enemy's max health. Each point of damage in the item editor deals 2 points of damage in enemy HP.
  • Damage: The enemy's contact damage. 4 damage = 1 heart.
  • W. Damage: Damage the enemy's projectiles do, same as above.
  • Hunger: Determines the enemy's attraction to the bait item. Range is from 0 (no attraction) to 4 (max attraction)
  • Random Rate: How often the enemy will change directions after moving to a new combo. Ranges from 0 (never) to 16 (always).
  • Halt Rate: How often the enemy will consider stopping to attack after moving to a new combo. Ranges from 0 (never) to 16 (always).
  • Homing Factor: How often the enemy will turn to face Link when changing directions. Ranges from 0 (never) to 256 (always).
  • Step Speed: How fast the enemy moves. 100 step = 1 pixel per frames.
  • F. Rate: How fast the enemy animates. Ranges from 3 (fastest) to 256 (slowest). 0-2 appear to result in no animation at all for some reason.

Lastly, some of my general suggestions of things to avoid:

  • Anything that can reasonably OHKO green tunic Link at the point it's introduced.
  • Splitting enemies that take more than a couple hits to kill or frequently drop health.
  • Excessive bullets.
  • Step speed close to or higher than Link's (150).
  • Creativity. Link wears green. Green is not a creative color. Be like Link. :P

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#2 Alucard648

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 03:02 PM

 

Lastly, some of my general suggestions of things to avoid:

  • Step speed close to or higher than Link's (150)

Link`s step speed is 100.



#3 a30502355

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 03:03 PM

Good idea!

 

When I think of difficulty gaps between enemies, I think of Goriyas. Level 2 Goriyas are really easy to kill while level 3, not so much. Unfortunately, the default boomerang weapon is pretty limited. The only way to buff the Goriyas without being too broken in my opinion is to increase their speed and homing factor. For speed, I'm thinking 100. And homing factor should be max with 256. 

 

I've also always wanted a buff to the Vire enemies, too. Maybe a buff to their HP. Though the only problem I see here is that their movement style is very buggy when they have more health. If Link hits them from the top or bottom, they get knocked back and immediately wrap back to the same location. And in newer versions of ZC, they stop moving when you hit them. 



#4 Moosh

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 03:13 PM

Link`s step speed is 100.

Is it? I know for sure Link's step speed in pixels is 1.5 pixels per frame. He alternates between taking 1 and 2 pixel steps every other frame. I was pretty sure enemy steps speeds are just pixel step speeds x100.



#5 Saffith

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 03:21 PM

Yeah, it's 150 to match Link's speed.
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#6 RedmageAdam

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 03:49 PM

One thing I like to do is introduce a "Level 0 Wizzrobe" or two. I won't give a full list of specifics, but one example of Wizzrobes that could reasonably fit a standard NES-style 9 dungeon quest's level 1 or 2 would be:

 

"Bullet Robe"

HP - 4

Damage - 2

W.Damage - 4

Teleport Delay - 74 (same as a Red Wizzrobe)

Movement Style - Teleport (accidentally had "Phase" here)

Drop Set - Default

Weapon Type - Fireball

Notes: Basically, it would behave just like a Red Wizzrobe, but much better balanced around level 1 or 2's difficulty. Would reasonably be encountered in groups of 4-6. I was tempted to make the Fireball damage 8, but 2 hearts of damage when you only have 3-4 hearts is a bit excessive, even if those types of Wizzrobes are very easy to read and avoid. Given the nature of the enemy, it always makes the Magic firing SFX. The Fireballs also only go straight, rather than being aimed directly at you. So I feel it would be in line with Red Goriyas and Red Darknuts for early game difficulty.

 

In addition, although typically for level 3 or after you'd be expected to have at least 5 hearts and a White Sword, I have what is basically a Walking Enemy type Wizzrobe. It behaves just like a regular walker with 50 Step Speed, a halt rate of around 4-6, a random rate of about 64 and a homing rate of 128. This enemy would have 8 HP, and both of its damage ratings would be 4 (1 heart with no rings). It's shot type would be a 1-shot Fireball. Drop set I tend to be one of the Magic + something else sets. So basically, it's a Wizzrobe that behaves like a regular walking enemy, but can aim a Fireball directly at you. I suppose an alternative would be having a Blue Wizzrobe style Wizzrobe that shoots Fireballs when you're in its line of sight instead, but again, they only fire them straight in this case. This variant would have 12 HP instead of 8 HP (to keep it in line with being a younger sibling to the Blue Wizzrobe).


Edited by RedmageAdam, 22 September 2017 - 08:28 PM.


#7 Orithan

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 05:19 PM

The bare minimum for a Tier 3 enemy in this scenario is to be balanced around the Magic Sword and the Red Ring. 1 Heart with Red Ring and 4 hits with Magic Sword is decent if you are just scaling stats.

A thing for enemies in general is that they should not be fast enough to outrun Link, unless they are weak and die in a single hit or Link has a convenient way of stunning them. Doubly so if they have a high homing rate. Those who outrun Link tend to be infuriating because they move too fast for the eye to track in groups and it doesn't seem fun if they outrun him.

Also, bullet spam should be kept to a minimum unless it is a single enemy. Multiple bullet spamming enemies fill the screen with bullets easily and make it hard to dodge.

 

Aside from that, I rate enemy difficulty based off the metric I created here

 



 

Adding onto what Yloh just said, some enemies that are not very menacing alone can be incredibly dangerous when paired with other enemy types. In Zelda Classic, I see several distinct offensive qualities enemies can have:

  • Vanilla Offense - Their ability to threaten the player directly with no added support from other enemy types or room layout. Enemies with this as their strong points include Goryias, Darknuts and Blue Wizzrobes.

  • Stallbreaking - Their ability to punish the player for playing defensively, usually by being fast and aggressive or otherwise forcing them to quickly attack them. Examples of enemies that score high here include Windrobes, Summoners, Bat Wizzrobes, Red Wizzrobes and Bombchus.

  • Countering - Their ability to punish the player for playing offensively, usually by dealing high damage and having high HP or by spamming projectiles. Enemies that focus on this include Fire Wizzrobes, Pols Voices, Gidbos, Ghinis and Lynels.

  • Support - How well they complement other enemies, often by putting the player at a disadvantage should they get hit or by blocking attacks aimed at allies. Enemies that are strong in this department include Bubbles and Red Wizzrobes.


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#8 Anthus

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 07:37 PM

I like this thread. Would it be possible to add the ranges of each field to the OP for people (like myself) who don't know all of them? This applies mainly to: Hunger, Random Rate, Halt Rate, Homing Factor, Step Speed, and the F.Rate.

 

You could also make a variant of the Darknut which is shielded everywhere but from behind. That would add a little twist, and nuance to movement.



#9 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 12:58 AM

So much of this is situational. If you give Link the hammer, a number of options fall away, unless the enemy is set do that tha hammer does not break shields. If so, it can be fun to add additional shielded sides. If you cannot merely break the shield and mow over enemies, then adding shields requires more fencing. 

 

Adding 'ignore sword'  or 'block sword' as a defence, and requiring magic, or arrows, or whatnot, is also a tactic that can modify the difficulty of even the most basic npcs. 

 

You can also mix around the movement patterns. Give an npc such as a typical Moblin, a teleporting wizzrobe pattern; and a shield; then make him ignore the sword, and it can become a fun distraction. 

 

Step speeds over 150 can work, if you do not also ramp up homing to an impossible rate. Being able to outrun Link can be a valid tactic, for weaker enemies that works very well.


Edited by ZoriaRPG, 23 September 2017 - 01:00 AM.

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#10 Alucard648

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 02:02 AM

So much of this is situational. If you give Link the hammer, a number of options fall away, unless the enemy is set do that tha hammer does not break shields. If so, it can be fun to add additional shielded sides. If you cannot merely break the shield and mow over enemies, then adding shields requires more fencing.

As far, as I can tell from numerous played quests, hammer can pierce through enemy directional shields even if they are set as unbreakable.



#11 klop422

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 02:59 AM

As far, as I can tell from numerous played quests, hammer can pierce through enemy directional shields even if they are set as unbreakable.

 

You can set that in the weapon defences



#12 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 03:06 AM

As far, as I can tell from numerous played quests, hammer can pierce through enemy directional shields even if they are set as unbreakable.


That might be a bug? I do not believe that is correct, or it could be from the item editor, which if so, is terrible design. The shield stuff is a mess anyway. When I rewrote npc defences in 2.60, shields semi-broke, so I will be rewriting them as well.

Edited by ZoriaRPG, 23 September 2017 - 03:07 AM.


#13 Avataro

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 07:26 AM

That might be a bug? I do not believe that is correct, or it could be from the item editor, which if so, is terrible design. The shield stuff is a mess anyway. When I rewrote npc defences in 2.60, shields semi-broke, so I will be rewriting them as well.

 

He just meant it pierces the shield, not breaks it. Hammer defense of the enemy determines if the hammer can hit it or not.



#14 ZoriaRPG

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:01 PM

He just meant it pierces the shield, not breaks it. Hammer defense of the enemy determines if the hammer can hit it or not.

 

Ooooooh. Hmm, that may be a bug with the hammer's reach and hitbox sizes. It is not something that I would be willing to adjust prior to 2.54, or later, as it factors into the weapons system stuff that I am working on for updated releases. I will be certain to account fpor it when i write the revised shield code, in 2.60.

 

Obviously, hammers should not reach through a shield, and damage an enemy. Should they?

 

Does anyone intentionally exploit this phenomenon?



#15 Moosh

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:09 PM

Obviously, hammers should not reach through a shield, and damage an enemy. Should they?
 
Does anyone intentionally exploit this phenomenon?

I don't believe this should be considered an exploit and I use it all the time with no issue. It just makes sense. The hammer's primary purpose in combat is being an effective weapon against darknuts. Take away its solid damage and that's all you have left. Given the hammer's slow swing time and the darknut's homing properties, removing the shield piercing would be about equivalent to making darknuts immune to the hammer when the shield breaking flag is unchecked, wouldn't it?
 
Take TeamUDF's reaction to a darknut being completely immune to the hammer in Golvellius as an example of how such a change would be received. :P
 

I like this thread. Would it be possible to add the ranges of each field to the OP for people (like myself) who don't know all of them? This applies mainly to: Hunger, Random Rate, Halt Rate, Homing Factor, Step Speed, and the F.Rate.

Sure thing, I'll add some information from the wiki to the OP.


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