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#16 Binx

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 06:36 PM

Going back to my previous post, since this thread has gotten a bit more active, I'd like to argue that the Gold Ring is too broken regardless of where you put it, as it absolutely trivializes the rest of the game. Unless you nerf it (Which isn't what this thread is about, it's about the vanilla versions of the items), it's probably the only item in Zelda Classic that just trivializes just about everything. The Master Sword, Feather, Fire Boomerang, and just about every useful usable item at least require input from the player, and if placed well, won't actually be broken, just "useful." the Gold Ring on the other hand, genuinely just trivializes everything afterwards, which is why I just outright avoid putting it in quests. You'll only ever need the Red Ring in any given lategame scenario, and at least with the Master Sword, Death Knights are still at least somewhat of a challenge.

But maybe that's kinda the point? Putting it in an optional challenge dungeon where the final prize is a set of items designed to completely break the rest of the quest (and I'd argue that vanilla Death Knights and Cracktoroks are too powerful for Red Ring). Plenty of great games have optional item sets like that, armors or weapons that are very difficult to obtain, but that turn the rest of the game into a joke. It's not something that I'd *ever* make a normal part of the game. (Also, I should probably note that, for my quest, almost every enemy is getting a slight-to-moderate buff in speed, damage, HP, or some combination thereof, except for the Death Knights and Cracktoroks, which will probably get a slight nerf, cuz most Z1 enemies are pathetically easy.) But yeah, I think that all of the items listed here, for the most part, need either to be nerfed or to have the rest of the game buffed around them. I don't really think there's any scenario that the Fire Boomerang isn't just as broken as the Gold Ring in vanilla ZC, it stuns nearly everything except for Shielded Darknuts if hit from the front. Golden Arrows are another one that really needs to have the game adjusted around it.



#17 Cukeman

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:18 PM

Ladder is broken but certainly not OP :P



#18 Binx

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:48 PM

The ladder isn't broken (at least not in this sense) it's just useless.



#19 Orithan

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 12:44 AM

The Ladder is busted because it is exploity. Enemies can't walk onto the ladder while you can attack when on it. When you can use it, it instantly trivializes things like Darknuts and it can also trivialize some ranged attackers like Stalfos.


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#20 Binx

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 12:46 AM

Oh, yeah, you're right. I forgot about that.



#21 klop422

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 06:35 AM

The Ladder is busted because it is exploity. Enemies can't walk onto the ladder while you can attack when on it. When you can use it, it instantly trivializes things like Darknuts and it can also trivialize some ranged attackers like Stalfos.

There's a lot you can do in your level design to mitigate that, though, for example just never have ladder-able combos in the same room as Darknuts. Again, if you can deactivate the ladder on water, somehow, that would help a lot as well.

On the other hand, you could make this trick required knowledge for some rooms i.e. have for example a long bridge and wizzrobes in your room, where you need to step off to dodge their attacks.

Basically, not making rooms so exploitable falls on the designer the same way not giving out the magic key at the beginning of the game is.

 

Speaking of the Magic Key, that's something else to be wary of. Should be an end-game bonus, I think, for if you don't hand out enough keys for the game (or the player can't be bothered to find them all, though I wouldn't reward that).



#22 Cukeman

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 06:47 AM

I just meant it's easy to get stuck on the ladder in the middle of a fight/escape and yuck, lol



#23 Binx

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 10:43 AM

 

On the other hand, you could make this trick required knowledge for some rooms i.e. have for example a long bridge and wizzrobes in your room, where you need to step off to dodge their attacks.

This is the worst idea. You should *never* make bugs and/or exploits required knowledge in order to beat a game. That's just terrible game design.


Edited by Binx, 28 July 2018 - 10:44 AM.


#24 klop422

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 01:41 PM

I wouldn't consider stepping off a bridge to avoid an attack an 'exploit', unless the quest is designed in a way that it clearly doesn't intend you to do it. Just another technique with the item. And, technically the situation I described doesn't even require you to use the technique - you can block wizzrobe attacks anyway, or kill them with the bow.

I agree wholeheartedly, though. Unless it's a kaizo game, I guess.




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