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How much does it cost to make a video game?


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#16 Mani Kanina

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 03:32 PM

Did we really need another thread where you try and push your quest making agenda through any means possible? Like, you have already freely admitted that you think pure users are just a bunch of dumb kids that don't get you in the first place, so honestly, I wouldn't really mind if you stopped bringing up offshoot topics as a means to yet again bring up your quest making ideologies. It's not as if these topics can't be interesting on their own, like say the cost of producing a game, but given that they are never the darn point of the threads it all just feels disingenuous.



#17 Hergiswi

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 03:51 PM

Making a ZC quest requires tears, blood, and sweat. And those are things that money can't buy. 

debatable, i'll sell you any of those things for a little cash, times are tough right now


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#18 Jamian

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 03:54 PM

debatable, i'll sell you any of those things for a little cash, times are tough right now

 

Offer sent in PM. 


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#19 Shane

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 04:01 PM

Evan pursued the game of his dreams but when it came to difficulty he simply made a cheap nerf that went down horribly with most players who prefer a more relaxed difficulty.

You know, you keep touting that argument proudly in multiple threads, and yet, it's easily contradicted by the fact it's number 2 on greatest hits and on the first page of ratings. Who are these "most players" that made a big controversy about IoR's easy mode not being enough that you keep citing? You've made me curious now after doing my own looking. If it went so horrible why all the success in spite of it? I thought challenge quest players were a minority, so why do majority of quest players love this quest with such a "cheap nerf that went down horribly"? Likely guess is you saw a few players and decided to say that's enough to make your case neglecting the overwhelming evidence against this.
 
It would do you well if you want to passionately advocate that there's a dichotomy that you back it up with actual non-flimsy proof.
 
 
 
As for the actual question: there's no concrete answer. There just isn't. It all depends on the scope of the project, the manpower, past experiences, how smoothly the process goes over... You can't really determine a definitive number as you can only estimate. As for how this knowledge applies to ZC... Not really? As others said, while time is money, all of this is purely passion and for fun and those are driving factors that can't simply be bought. I don't think most people put in thought that they're investing money into ZC indirectly because it's low priority due to being just a hobby. This feels like a repeat of the quest sponsorship thread, and I already said my piece there. :P


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#20 Anthus

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 04:12 PM

Just a friendly reminder to keep it civil in here. James is allowed to have his hot takes, and you guys are allowed to talk about it, but all I ask is we keep it respectful and on topic. There's no need to question why he made the thread. No one has to reply to threads they don't like. :P


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#21 Magi_Hero

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 04:23 PM

Can say I'm more partial to how I like the game, over if the creator went solely on "their vision" or not. Sometimes those cross; sometimes they don't. I totally don't go with Activision's visions (irony) but I still play some of their games. Same can be said for individual developers.

 

Money making? I mean sure, do what you want. I'm sure if people setup Patreons or still got monetization for their YouTube channels it would be fine.



#22 James24

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 12:02 AM

Aevin you raise an interesting point about game-making being about the relationship between game-maker and audience.  From my perspective, there's a huge burden involved in making a game the "blood, sweat and tears" as Jamian likes to call it.  Its also called the huge cost in those videos I pointed out some of which reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Surely, any compassionate audience would understand that this is causing a lot of grief to their quest makers and try to do something to mitigate it.  In the commercial world this is done through sales of the game once its released.

 

But here on Zelda Classic, the audience does nothing except play, rate, talk and recommend things that are not in line with the creator's passion and vision.  Whether this talk is good or bad, it does nothing to solve the quest-maker's cost problem.  How exactly is a quest-maker supposed to feel when their audience abandons them to the "blood, sweat and tears"?  In my view, if an audience does not take any action to mitigate the cost of making the game, then they are not entitled to have their views acted on when it comes to the passion and vision of the game.  Help me, help you.  Abandon me, abandon you.  I see nothing ethically or morally wrong about that.

 

I'll give you guys another example of a very good hard game I recently played.  Its called the Darkest Dungeon available on steam.  One of the most difficult games I've ever played with perma-death and stress.  But also this mode called "radiant" and its very easy.  So I wondered why they made that mode given the core vision of the game was to be brutally hard.  I found out that it was only added after there were a lot of complaints from their very large and paying fanbase.  In that case, the audience was entitled to have their vision of the game made because they were sharing in the costs of making the game.



#23 Rambly

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 01:18 AM

Its also called the huge cost in those videos I pointed out some of which reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Surely, any compassionate audience would understand that this is causing a lot of grief to their quest makers and try to do something to mitigate it.

I'm not going to argue that game development isn't a daunting task -- it is, and it's not just about cost in dollars.  For a single ZC dev, too, they have to plan out their quest, bugtest it over and over again, assemble the levels, optionally do coding and graphical work... all usually handled by a single person, in our community's case.  And while you could point out that ZC doesn't have the same fiscal barriers nor does it require the same amount of time as a triple-A professional game made by a studio, it doesn't really change the underlying point.
 
However, I will say that for me personally, I've never felt grief making things in ZC.  Specifically, I felt that the amount of time I was paying was of pretty equal value to what I got out of it (the satisfaction of creating a quest that I enjoyed and wanted to make) -- knowing that at least some amount of people played it and enjoyed it and connected with it was like this crazy huge bonus that I didn't expect.  Some artists just create art for the sake of creating art.  Not all of us are suffering, or if we are we're willing to put up with it for the satisfaction of making something.  Some people really are that crazy.  I'm really that crazy. :P
 

But here on Zelda Classic, the audience does nothing except play, rate, talk and recommend things that are not in line with the creator's passion and vision. Whether this talk is good or bad, it does nothing to solve the quest-maker's cost problem. How exactly is a quest-maker supposed to feel when their audience abandons them to the "blood, sweat and tears"?

At face value, you're right in that it doesn't solve the quest maker's cost problem -- but then I would (did) argue that some people just don't feel like they need to be compensated for their work. And then, for some, I'd say that seeing other people play their quests is often compensation enough for some people -- hell, just the existence of that audience and feeling part of a community might be the incentive, in some cases.  The subjective value of the amount of effort someone has put in is going to vary a lot from person-to-person, and it's not easy to quantify objectively.
 
YMMV, and I don't think there's a "right answer" here, but while this is a problem for some I wouldn't say it's universal.  I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling like they're not being incentivized enough, but given that financial compensation is a tricky subject within the ZC community, particularly cuz our work revolves around a quasi-legal fangame editor, I also wouldn't blame them for moving onto "real" game design. :P

(n.b. I also think it's worth considering the possibility that the lack of financial compensation within the community might be a self-perpetuating problem -- nobody wants to be the guinea pig that ends up getting us DMCA'd by Nintendo's lawyers or something. I will say, however, that like Magi_Hero suggested, I don't think anyone would have much cause to complain if someone just stuck a Patreon link in their signature or something. Especially since that solution makes the situation less "pay me directly for my Zelda game" and more "support me and I'll do some cool stuff you like".  There's artists on Twitter who have fanart on their accounts that also ask for money on Patreon, so it'd be analogous to an already-pretty-common situation that people don't really get in trouble for anyway.)
 

In my view, if an audience does not take any action to mitigate the cost of making the game, then they are not entitled to have their views acted on when it comes to the passion and vision of the game. Help me, help you. Abandon me, abandon you. I see nothing ethically or morally wrong about that.

I can agree with that.

In particular, the community's ratings system has, I think, shifted in its purpose over time -- originally I think it was meant as a place to offer constructive criticism, especially in the site's earliest days -- but there was a period of time around the turn of the last decade when I started seeing people rating quests low because the quest didn't meet their personal expectations or tastes.
 
Honestly, people have debated what the actual purpose of the feedback system has been for years. I don't really have a good solution to that problem, but I would say that people should maybe manage their expectations... people should be aware that pretty much everything they're rating is a passion project.  I will admit that the exhaustion of worrying about meeting peoples' expectations and feeling compelled to follow trends has stifled my desire to make a quest in recent years, too.
 
Of course, that's not to say people should feel like they can't leave any critical feedback -- just that they should be aware of what exactly their feedback is targeting and, maybe more crucially, why they're posting it.


Edited by Rambly, 21 March 2020 - 01:26 AM.


#24 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 01:32 AM

In my view, if an audience does not take any action to mitigate the cost of making the game, then they are not entitled to have their views acted on when it comes to the passion and vision of the game.

So you have never any right to blame what Evan adds difficult settings for his own quests, or did you pay a lot of money for him? Far from it, you only irritates him.

 

 

By the way, several remake version of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy games are added the super boss(es), The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild has the master mode and several challenge things as DLC. In fact, some people like to buy even difficult things.


Edited by Stray Sheep, 21 March 2020 - 07:38 AM.


#25 Rambly

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Posted 09 December 2020 - 07:34 PM

However, I will say that for me personally, I've never felt grief making things in ZC.

this is the biggest lie i have ever told in my life


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#26 NoeL

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Posted 09 December 2020 - 09:39 PM

this is the biggest lie i have ever told in my life

Interesting. Elaborate?

#27 Bagu

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Posted 20 December 2020 - 01:59 PM

How much does it cost?
...well, I don't think love and patience is countable



#28 Suredolik

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Posted 05 April 2022 - 09:32 PM

If you are going to use a Minecraft server, then you need to be able to connect to the server. The best way to do this is to have a dedicated Minecraft server, which gives you access to all of the available features on the server. If you want to run your server, you need to set up a dedicated Minecraft SMP and your port forwarding. This is an advanced feature that can be very useful for people who have a lot of players and want to have their servers. It's great to have a private server to play with your friends.


Edited by Suredolik, 07 April 2022 - 07:22 AM.


#29 Rambly

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 08:49 PM

I made a video game for free ($0) with Zelda classic video game editor. Use Zelda classic video game editor to create custom quest with beautiful graphics and new experiences. If you're going to create a Zelda game with Zelda classic video game editor, then it's good to upload your quest to Zelda game maker database to share with your friends to have fun with.

Interesting. Elaborate?


Late but I've definitely felt something very near grief - some kind of frustration - trying to create something in ZC that's actually inspired or interesting or novel. That post was just a dumb joke about the whole pain of creative pursuits or whatever.




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