10 replies to this topic

[Nightmare]

It's now on the PureZC Database.

Demo SP is essentially a remaster of Demo EX, including new bosses, features, and items. It takes advantage of several of the new features in Zelda Classic and shows off things made between 2.10 and 2.50.2

It works with 2.50.2, but it optimized for 2.53 (so download that beta if you want the best experience)

Enjoy people!

Especially special thanks for Moosh for fixing Reboknuckle and keeping this project from dying.

-James

[P-Tux7]

Oh, what did he do? Needed another minigame?

[James24]

I played a fair bit of the demo a while back (haven't picked up the released quest) and whilst there are some new tricks, Demo Quest SP still makes the same old mistakes:

 

1) Arbitrary secrets.  I'm pretty sure that no one likes to "whistle while you work", burn arbitrary statues, burn arbitrary trees or bomb arbitrary rocks.  The only person who finds that ok is the quest maker because they know where the secret is.

 

2) Forced rupee grinding.  If you are unable to find the arbitrary secrets just after the opening gauntlet, you must grind for enough rupees to purchase the raft and power bracelet.  Otherwise, you can't get to the next level.  As Dimentio said, any quest that has forced rupee grinding gets an automatic negative 1 star rating.

 

3) The difficulty.  I think extreme or highly challenging quests are ok, but I remember you lectured me on how I must never design for just the top players.  Well guess what, the difficulty here means that you need to be a top player otherwise you'll die over and over again.  I don't see any normal mode.

[Nightmare]

3) The difficulty. I think extreme or highly challenging quests are ok, but I remember you lectured me on how I must never design for just the top players. Well guess what, the difficulty here means that you need to be a top player otherwise you'll die over and over again. I don't see any normal mode.

I'm personally surprised you are having difficulty with this one, Mr. LoH. While it is difficult, I haven't found that people have overwhelmingly not finished this quest who have started it. (unlike Demo Original)

As for Rupee grinding, as of Demo EX there are enough to pass without grinding. If you don't find them and/or plan wrong, that's not on me.

Look more carefully in the cave.

-James

Edited by Nightmare, 24 April 2018 - 12:08 AM.

[Gleeok]

Finally!

Took yer sweet-ass time din'cha? ...jk.

For the grinding comment: Normally you don't have to grind if you search thoroughly enough, but I can't confirm this until I get there. Glad that James24 is saying it's on the hard side though; I expect that for a PM title!

[SofaKing]

As someone who played through this twice (once on an earlier version and once on pretty much the most recent) to help test, I'll weigh in.   

 

1) Arbitrary secrets -- This quest has some, no doubt, in part because the whole quest is filled with homages and throwbacks to Z1.  Bomb spots aren't marked, nor generally are burn trees or whistle screens.   Just like Z1.   The bomb bag refill helps a ton.  There are certainly places where I think the quest could use some additional direction as to where to go and what to do and a few more hints and markings, but, that is the style of the quest.   Maybe some of the hint guys are helpful there, I didn't pay.   The lens is extremely helpful to acquire although it's exact location may be the most random thing of all.

 

2)   Rupee grinding -- It's true that you really don't have to do much (if any) if you find all the hidden treasure.   I usually have to grind a little early to get enough for the raft and bracelet, but, after that you shouldn't need to grind again.   There is one room with respect to rupees that I think is too harsh in the bonus level (and can cause a possible problem later) and I told Nightmare that.

 

3)   Difficulty -- Everything that made the original demo quest so brutal has been neutered, some a lot.  There are hard rooms here and there, especially late (levels 4 and 5 have a couple tricky gauntlets), and some rooms where I personally would tone down the bubbles, but I don't consider this one of the harder quests in the DB anymore.  I think my last playthrough I finished with around 10 deaths and I am not a great player by any means.   You can have the magic sword like 10 minutes in, potion drops are plentiful, to add an easy mode IMO would be a waste of time.  Certainly I abuse features of ZC, like leaving one enemy in certain rooms so they don't respawn, but there are lots of non-respawning rooms provided you don't exit the dungeon.   The game isn't that hard.  

 

Overall this is solid update.   If you liked the earlier Demo EX you'll like this.   If you didn't you probably won't.  

Edited by SofaKing, 24 April 2018 - 12:48 PM.

[Nightmare]

2) Rupee grinding -- It's true that you really don't have to do much (if any) if you find all the hidden treasure. I usually have to grind a little early to get enough for the raft and bracelet, but, after that you shouldn't need to grind again. There is one room with respect to rupees that I think is too harsh in the bonus level (and can cause a possible problem later) and I told Nightmare that.

I took care of that one SofaKing. If you play it again you'll see.

Generally, in agreement with a directive from PM, all softlocks were nerfed hard.

-James

Edited by Nightmare, 24 April 2018 - 04:28 PM.

[James24]

I never said that I found this difficult Nightmare - I'm pretty sure I can zero game this if I really tried.  I'm merely pointing out that you are catering only for the players who prefer hard difficulty - something not to dissimilar to what I did with LoH and LoH:IE.  You said that I shouldn't be doing that, but here you are doing exactly the same thing.  There aren't cheap nerf modes like you did in your other quests.  And even if there was a cheap nerf mode, history shows that that doesn't truly win over those who prefer easy quests.

 

As for rupee grinding - you tell me to look more carefully in the cave.  But guess where the cave is hidden?  Yep, you guessed right - behind an arbitrary secret.  So if you don't burn every tree on every screen, bomb every rock you can see and don't "whistle while you work" you risk missing an aribtrary secret.  In this case, its not truly a mandatory arbitrary secret since you can grind your way out of it, but other missed arbitrary secrets can mean you get stuck and its more or less game over.  I just don't see how that can be a fun game.

 

Nintendo made a mistake with the original Zelda and included arbitrary secrets.  They rectified that mistake in all future Zelda games.  Its a pity that people will always keep copying the same mistake over and over again and never realize it for what it is - a mistake.

[EnnonFenom]

 

I never said that I found this difficult Nightmare - I'm pretty sure I can zero game this if I really tried.  I'm merely pointing out that you are catering only for the players who prefer hard difficulty - something not to dissimilar to what I did with LoH and LoH:IE.  You said that I shouldn't be doing that, but here you are doing exactly the same thing.  There aren't cheap nerf modes like you did in your other quests.  And even if there was a cheap nerf mode, history shows that that doesn't truly win over those who prefer easy quests.

 

As for rupee grinding - you tell me to look more carefully in the cave.  But guess where the cave is hidden?  Yep, you guessed right - behind an arbitrary secret.  So if you don't burn every tree on every screen, bomb every rock you can see and don't "whistle while you work" you risk missing an aribtrary secret.  In this case, its not truly a mandatory arbitrary secret since you can grind your way out of it, but other missed arbitrary secrets can mean you get stuck and its more or less game over.  I just don't see how that can be a fun game.

 

Nintendo made a mistake with the original Zelda and included arbitrary secrets.  They rectified that mistake in all future Zelda games.  Its a pity that people will always keep copying the same mistake over and over again and never realize it for what it is - a mistake.

 

um not mistakes. But the Game designers preference in a game.

So a game maker "Must" pander to all people? Not make games they prefer???

 

That's like saying here, have this game that is not a game at all. Because I showed you all "Secrets" so not secret.

Here I will give you rupee's because you can find them without being pointed out.

 

The point is, not all games are for everyone! If a gamer finds a game too hard, then just do not play it!

Not go whining "make everything obvious, and easier for me."

 

Where is the fun if you can just walk through a game? or not die? or not get confused?

where is a challenge or the quest in that kind of game?

 

it reminds my of people whom go whining when they get hit once in pokemon, or get mad a brake their controller because the suffered once lose in game. Or did not get the first go.

 

When these are all things designed to be randomly hard or easy, but yet since they experienced such a thing, the game maker is wrong, stupid, and make mistakes.

No, none of it is a mistake but your opinion!

Edited by EnnonFenom, 25 April 2018 - 04:09 AM.

[Deedee]

I, for one, find arbitrary secrets bearable, just not enjoyable. I like how it was handled in Lunaria's Legend of Lana, where bombable caves look subtly different from the rest of the mountain. You still have to look for the secret, but you don't have to waste your bombs bombing every mountain on the screen, you just need to have a keen eye.

[SofaKing]

I largely agree with Dimentio on this point.   The best secrets strike a perfect balance between "oh look there's a huge crack on that otherwise unremarkable wall!" and "burn every identical tree on every screen until you find the one that covers a stairway."   Good screen design, something that looks slightly weird or out of place, a missing spot on the map that must be accessible somehow, a slight graphical hint or tile that at least tells you something is amiss, but doesn't beat you over the head with it.   Those are the perfect secrets.   The ones where you have to pay attention to your surroundings, stay on your toes, but not simply and randomly try everything.

 

There are Metroid games that do this perfectly with respect to morph ball passages and bombable walls and ones that do it all wrong.   Zelda is no different.