13 replies to this topic

[AutumnHaunted]

I observed this in Zelda Classic 2.55 Alpha 92 and am using Windows 10.


In ZC version 1.92, Secret Money rooms were reusable so long as they didn't use Screen 80/the cave/item room setup and were in a real screen. In 2.55, however, Secret Money rooms are always one-time-only, and ZC seems to lack a backwards compatibility quest rule to account for this. I am working on Bikdip's Adventure 3 with BikdipOnABus, and we're going to be making use of the reusability for a repeatable custom battle encounter system, but this will break if played in the current 2.55 version. Would it be possible to add this quest rule?

[Moosh]

Oh! I'm pretty sure this was broken at some point in 2.50's development, because I abused this for money grinding when playing BoaB, but at some point it stopped working. I assumed the original behavior was a 2.50 bug. Seems like a good candidate for an emulation setting.

[AutumnHaunted]

I'm not really sure about the difference between default backwards compatibility and emulation settings, so I suppose I'll leave it to the devs' judgment. I suppose we could always include a note in the quest's readme about making sure to have that setting on if playing in 2.50.

[Moosh]

Basically there were a limited number of bits allotted for quest rules and the devs ran out of them for 2.53, so all other backwards compatibility stuff has to be added as tick boxes in the player rather than the editor in that version. 2.55 has way more space for rules again, but from my understanding it's limited per major version or else the quest format would break.

[P-Tux7]

Here's a way you can make non-secret money items respawn. That won't be as fine-tuned as this for money, but it works great for freebie magic refills, which are sorely lacking in 1.92/2.10 unless you have a potion, shop, or are around enemies that drop magic.

 

1. Set Room A's secret item to a magic refill or giant rupee.

2. Set Room A to pit-warp you on the combos that you step on you walk to the item to room B.

3. Have Room A (or is it B?) set to have "Sprites Carry Over". This will carry over all sprites like enemies... including the room's item.

4. Pick up the item in Room B. However, since you've picked up the item in Room B and not Room A, the item will still spawn in Room A - and carry over with Link again to Room B, ready to be picked up once more.

 

This also works on:

-Enemies (as I said. Best used for Keese/Peahats/Ghinis/Moldorms because if you have a multi-screen "screen" that looks similar but the combos have changed solidity (over/under bridge rooms, over/under water rooms...), that can mess with the terrestrial enemies' movement.)

-Statue shooter fireballs (great for bosses to hide the fact that you are going through screens)

-Link's projectiles (also great for bosses for the same reason. This also means that you can have multi-screen "screens" (over/under bridge rooms, over/under water rooms...) where Link is required to physically use the candle, arrows, wand, book fire, etc. on the first screen, then go to the second screen in time for said projectile to hit its target. This also works on those "Boss DMap Trigger Filter" rooms where you're forced through a corridor of warps to different maps that check to see if you triggered the Boss Flag, for added immersion.)

-Actual bosses (They have the same quality of "if you defeat them after they follow you through a pit warp, they'll still spawn in the original room". However, they can indeed be used to trigger secrets (maybe permanent ones?) in Room B when you kill them there.)

-Blocks that are in the middle of being pushed (extremely janky since you have to keep shoving into the block so that you walk into the pit warp before the block becomes "un-alive" again, and hardly worth it. I've always found those "push the block down a hole" puzzles like in LTTP dumb because most things that fell in holes in that game were just gone.)

 

It's actually best to think of "Pit Warps" as "position-keeping warps", because you have the traditional pit option of having only Link keep his position on the other side, but you also have the screen flag that lets other game objects keep their positions.

[AutumnHaunted]

Yeah, we're familiar with the properties of pits (we've been using them a lot already for various purposes). Thanks for the sprite carryover suggestion, we may consider that rather than our current plan of using (invisible) shops for magic replenishment.

[P-Tux7]

Yeah, we're familiar with the properties of pits (we've been using them a lot already for various purposes). Thanks for the sprite carryover suggestion, we may consider that rather than our current plan of using (invisible) shops for magic replenishment.

Oh yeah, don't forget magic shields.

[AutumnHaunted]

What about magic shields?

[P-Tux7]

What about magic shields?

I just meant that you can use them in the same way as rupees, potions, and magic refills, as an infinite battle reward since they can be exhausted if you get caught by a like-like.

 

Exhausted...? That choice of wording reminds me, I don't think anyone's scripted shield durability (or attacks that can one-hit-break it) into ZC yet and I'm really glad for it.

Edited by P-Tux7, 02 June 2021 - 01:24 AM.

[AutumnHaunted]

Oh, right.

[Twilight Knight]

I don't think anyone's scripted shield durability (or attacks that can one-hit-break it) into ZC yet and I'm really glad for it.

You'll regret saying this 

[P-Tux7]

Oh wait, I forgot something... I think rupee-showing rooms (Free Money, Bomb Upgrade, Life or Money) might "follow" Link through pit warps as well, since the Guy is a "sprite" (like all enemies, since once they die enemy secrets are activated) and I'll bet the rupee/heart touch selector is too. This doesn't excuse this bug from being un-fixed so that 1.92 quests will play properly, but you might be able to make use of this in situations where the original "bug" doesn't work in 1.92 either.

 

Also, this is just speculation for the quest in general, but I wonder if anything fun can be done with Trigger enemies "following" Link from a DMap that they aren't activated on, to a map where they are (and die), that can't be done by just having it on the other side to begin with. One thing I'm sure of is that it'll activate kill-all-enemies stuff after the warp, but not before. Man, it was so much fun telling Martin all those crazy ideas I had for his quest a while back on Discord, I hope some of them were good ones.

Edited by P-Tux7, 02 June 2021 - 12:34 PM.

[AutumnHaunted]

We actually thought of the Trigger thing as well yesterday after you brought up Sprites Carry Over.

 

By the way, Martin and Bikdip (Josh) are two different people, they just used to share a Discord account when they shared a computer and lived together.

[AutumnHaunted]

I wonder if anything fun can be done with Trigger enemies "following" Link

After some experimentation, it turns out (in 1.92 at least), that triggers don't stay dead unless they're marked as a Dungeon Boss, and Enemies -> Secret is actually dependent on the enemy still being dead - i.e. secrets activated by Enemies -> Secret are temporary (w.r.t. save + reload) even outside of Dungeon DMaps unless the enemy is a Dungeon Boss or Moldorm (because of their weird bugginess that I assume is well-known). This means that using KAE + Sprites Carry Over for non-Boss Flag remote secrets is not really viable unless both the KAE-containing screen and the one it gets carried to are basically transition screens on which its safe to put an invisible Moldorm and know that the player doesn't have time/opportunity to fuck with the mechanism. It's still a useful tool to have on-hand, but it's unfortunate how limited it's turned out to be.

I realise the topic has kind of drifted from the original bug report to that of 1.92 mechanic exploitation; should I/we move further discussion of the topic to a new thread somewhere?

Edited by AutumnHaunted, 04 June 2021 - 06:31 AM.