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The problem with ZC's current Nth quests.


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Poll: The problem with ZC's current Nth quests.

Should the Nth quests be changed?

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#1 Deedee

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 02:26 AM

I'm sure many of you are familiar with the Nth quests; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. They're the quests prepackaged into ZC, the ones that automatically load one after the other when you beat each one, etc. They're the quests that often serve as a first introduction to ZC, and some have even taken to doing all of them as some sort of challenge. Heck, there's even the current 6th quest contest going on.

As such, I'm sure you're also familiar with the infamous 3rd quest. Brutally difficult, and a massive jump in difficulty compared to both the previous and the latter quests. This 3rd quest has been seen as a stain on the otherwise alright Nth quests, to the point where there's even an ability to skip it should you 100% 2nd quest. In fact, some sources say it's not even the original 3rd quest as submit to the original contest, but rather a version modified by the hosts to be even harder than it's original form.

While this is the most infamous example, it's not the only problematic Nth quest. The 4th quest as we know it is also in a weird position, as it is actually the fusion of the two winning quests in the 4th quest contest; HeroOfFire's, and QuestWizard's; the overworld of one and the dungeons of another, resulting in a linear quest with little replayability that one of the authors even explicitly dislikes. 

Finally, there's the 5th quest. This one is a weird one. BigJoe won the contest, but most people feel as though Shoelace was unfairly disqualified due to the judge's NES-preferences and had he made it to the finals, that he would have won. However, to give Shoelace the win at this point would invalidate BigJoe's victory, and BigJoe's quest itself isn't a bad quest.

In fact, despite these problems, there are likely some who might enjoy these quests in spite of their problems; and on that note, it could be considered poor form to just discard them. However, these problems still exist, and surely there must be something that could be done about it. Hence, this topic. Hopefully some good discussion can come from just discussing this, and perhaps solutions could be proposed and the like (or people could just say to continue on with how it currently is).

As for what I'd propose: ZC 2.53 now has the ability to create "modules", which allow for, among other things, having different "Nth Quests" for each part. For example, one could make a module that starts with Hitodama as 1st, Yuurei as 2nd, and Reikon as 3rd, or etc. What I propose, is that the current Nth quests be packaged as a "challenge" or "classic" module, where people who wish to go through a more challenge-oriented progression can select that module and play through the quests that way. Ideally, 4th quest could also be changed to be QuestWizard's original 4th quest entry. Then, the "default" module would be changed to have Shoelae's, HeroOfFire's, and one other quest. 

Obviously, my solution might not be perfect, I'm sure there's other good ones too! So what do you all think, and how should this be handled?


Edited by Dimentio, 15 February 2020 - 03:07 AM.

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#2 Emily

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 02:46 AM

AFAIK:

The 'Classic Module` will have it's Nth quests completed with the 6th contest.

The default module starting in 2.55 release is NOT this; it will be using a new tileset, and have a contest held to create quests for it in that tileset. The purpose is open-assets; i.e. non-copyright-infringing quests to include with the engine default.

 

...Of note, you'll be able to make any damn modules you want. Heck, once we're sure module stuff is good to go it might even end up calling for a module database for all the different stuff (it's more than just the nth quests that modules do).



#3 Timelord

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 09:49 AM

AFAIK:
The 'Classic Module` will have it's Nth quests completed with the 6th contest.
The default module starting in 2.55 release is NOT this; it will be using a new tileset, and have a contest held to create quests for it in that tileset. The purpose is open-assets; i.e. non-copyright-infringing quests to include with the engine default.
 
...Of note, you'll be able to make any damn modules you want.

 
I agree with that model of composing personally tailored modules.
 
If you don't like the extant stuff, then by all means make your own module, but don't try to overturn the outcome events that occurred in the past, or to retcon history to fit a specific set of personal tastes.
 
How'd you like it if I went through and decided that every SotW needed to be from a completed and playable quest, DQ'd the votes and made my own bloody choices; or DQ'd every EotM that an average user couldn't add to a quest?
 
Every contest had its own rules, and took a lot of time and effort to plan; and setting such a precedent now would be extremely disturbing. Vote all you want, but you are voting in a void. We will not piss on the past winners by changing the official Classic module quests years after the fact.
 
'Default' will not include any existing quest.

Heck, once we're sure module stuff is good to go it might even end up calling for a module database for all the different stuff (it's more than just the nth quests that modules do).


We have a module database.
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#4 Lüt

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Posted 15 February 2020 - 09:23 PM

Until recently, I thought ZC's "official" Nth quests should remain fairly within traditional NES guidelines. 2.55 is when the program is planned to be rebranded as "ZQuest Classic" and have its default assets changed, so that's the point at which it seemed appropriate to ditch the NES foundation and build a new default foundation showing everything the program is capable of. But as long as 2.53 is still branded as "Zelda Classic," it's only sensible that people should load the default program and be greeted with classic Zelda.

 

However, two things make me reconsider.

 

First, an unexpected number of 2.55 features being backported to 2.53.1 - in particular, the module system.

 

Second, the results of the 6th quest contest's unrestricted design guidelines - 4 quests so visually and functionally diverse that they may as well be a ZC-capabilities showcase pack.

 

So now my current thoughts are this: Use 2.53.1's module system to provide two default modules - a "true classic" pack and a "modern classic" pack. (Those being their themes, not actual name suggestions.) The true classic module would contain the current 1st - 5th quests, and then, as of this contest, add Gleeok's 6th quest as the super-challenge grand finale to bring the NES era to its hard-bitten conclusion. The modern classic module would then contain the 4 new entries in this contest, and perhaps Shoelace's rejected 5th quest entry, since it seems like that one would have fit right in (and done quite well) with this contest. I mean, the current 4 entries seem to have inadvertently created their own cohesive timeline, so they could actually act as a progressive history of beyond-NES Hyrule if arranged chronologically (and if Shoelace's 5th is simply "current" Hyrule, then it can go first both chronologically and developmentally).

 

IMO, that would successfully 1) address the stylistic divide between Gleeok's entry and the other 4 entries in the 6th quest contest, 2) preserve the previous contest winners, 3) showcase ZC's current capabilities, and 4) "remedy" Shoelace's rejection for leaning too far in the direction this contest ultimately went in. True classic fans get their representation, modern classic fans get their representation, users get their choice, and everybody's included.


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#5 Anthus

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 01:59 AM

none.


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#6 Deedee

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 03:05 PM

So now my current thoughts are this: Use 2.53.1's module system to provide two default modules - a "true classic" pack and a "modern classic" pack. (Those being their themes, not actual name suggestions.) The true classic module would contain the current 1st - 5th quests, and then, as of this contest, add Gleeok's 6th quest as the super-challenge grand finale to bring the NES era to its hard-bitten conclusion. The modern classic module would then contain the 4 new entries in this contest, and perhaps Shoelace's rejected 5th quest entry, since it seems like that one would have fit right in (and done quite well) with this contest. I mean, the current 4 entries seem to have inadvertently created their own cohesive timeline, so they could actually act as a progressive history of beyond-NES Hyrule if arranged chronologically (and if Shoelace's 5th is simply "current" Hyrule, then it can go first both chronologically and developmentally).

This is what I meant to propose, but I suck at words and you put it very eloquently.

 

The old 1-5th quests aren't getting ported to the "default" module for the open assets, so under that logic, why not just have these new 6th quest winners be included in a "modern classic" module? You wouldn't be removing the old winners, you'd just be having a new category for the new winners.



#7 NoeL

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 04:54 PM

I haven't played nor really been interested in playing the unofficial Nth quests, so I don't have much input other than that I don't care (and if the limited poll is any indication, I'm not alone). ZC has always been about the custom quests, and I think most people that get the program are just going to look for whatever quests interest them rather than grind through the packaged quests (unless that's particularly what they're after).

 

So it's something that could be addressed for those that care, but maybe not the highest priority.



#8 Mani Kanina

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 09:36 AM

The Nth quests have not really been relevant in ages so I don't really see the need to touch them at all. I personally consider them all to be worse than the 2nd quest, which is already not that great in comparison to the first quest, but it's kinda besides the point. People who are into ZC today and get into ZC today do so because of the custom quests anyway, either the latest hot things or one of the big name quests. I don't think it's unfair to say that most people who want to play quests aren't interested in "second quest but more crudely designed and harder", if you want a classic style quest then there are a whole slew in the database that have more to offer than the Nth quests combined.

So no, I see no reason to touch them at this point, the fact that they will be relegated to the classic module is a good thing if you ask me, cause that leaves room for some better things to fill up the default packed in quests.

If anything, it seems weird to add more things to the classic module today, the entries in the 6th quest contest will get more traction as stand alone custom quests (as well as being part of a contest) than they will get for being packed in with the classic module.



#9 DarkFlameSheep

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 10:57 AM

I think it's not a big problem. If creators hope many play their own quests, submitting them for PureZC database is much better than being Nth quest.


Edited by Stray Sheep, 18 February 2020 - 02:49 AM.


#10 P-Tux7

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 05:49 PM

I haven't played nor really been interested in playing the unofficial Nth quests, so I don't have much input other than that I don't care (and if the limited poll is any indication, I'm not alone). ZC has always been about the custom quests, and I think most people that get the program are just going to look for whatever quests interest them rather than grind through the packaged quests (unless that's particularly what they're after).

 

So it's something that could be addressed for those that care, but maybe not the highest priority.

You should really play the new ones once ZC 2.53.1 comes out. They're not like the old "Nth quests" at all.




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