7 replies to this topic

[Moosh]

So recently I watched Deathrider's streams (all around great guy btw, deserves a shoutout) of Link's Quest for the Hookshot and it got me thinking about both quests again. I figured I'd ramble about my thoughts here and see if anyone has anything to say.

 

To start with, the big issue here is that despite the fact that LQftH2 is presented as a sequel, it was never originally intended as one. I don't really design quests with much continuity in mind, more I have an idea and I think "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if these two things were related." But when people play my quests, many do care about continuity (just ask NJF trying to piece together LQftH2 lore for his stream descriptions). I tell people to skip Hookshot 1 because it's not very good, but they tend to play it anyways because people naturally like to do things in order. So while I design sequels more as an upgrade to the original than a follow-up, people playing my old quests means I keep having to look back at them and wince. If I were to make a LQftH3 it would probably be in a similar situation to the second as the second is to the first. I really would want people to see the best I have to offer, rather than being turned away by dated design. 

 

So then there's the state of LQftH1. It has some horrible sections. Entire dungeons that people just don't like, dated custom bosses, cringey writing, bugs and the such. It's already a mish-mash of a game design time capsule, since I've added several easter eggs for LPers who've suffered through it over the years. I'm wondering though if it's worth giving it the same treatment I gave the sequel. I could replace the bad dungeons with better ones, replace the shitty bosses with simple scripted ones, wipe some of the cringe from the records...But then I wonder at what point with me changing and adding onto it does it stop being the same quest? Could I successfully emulate my older design in making better replacements for the less good dungeons (Level 7, Level 8, Dark World 1, Dark World 4, Level B)? By fixing the problems with it, would LQftH1 become a better quest than the sequel even? That's a situation I certainly wouldn't want.

 

Then I look at LQftH2. I personally feel like the dungeons really don't hold up as well as the first, but if I go back and redo those, then we've got a true case of the Ship of Theseus. Practically none of the original quest would remain at that point. Same deal with the bosses, which don't hold up the best either. And I really don't think I have it in me to do another update of that scale anyways. How about that ending as well? It sure is bad. I sure did put in a bad sequel hook for the hell of it and then immediately regret it when I started planning for a sequel. If I were to make a LQftH3 is it even worth trying to cram it together? Should I just retcon all of that out? I didn't know when I made the update. I still don't know. Endings suck. 

 

...Endings. So then there's my planned third quest, LQftH3, a clusterfuck of a plan I can't even keep all together in my head at times. I really don't plan these things through, and so I was going to cap off two quests with little to no story with an ambitious story driven epic...More and more I realize how awful an idea that is and yet I'm too attached to a few of the threads to stop thinking that maybe, just maybe someday I'll get around to it. I can't let it go completely. I've considered just making it an independent quest from the other two, but I just can't shake that "protagonist thrust into another world he knows nothing about" feeling, because that's the kind of incredibly contrived atmosphere I like the most. LQftH is an Isekai anime. Shoot me.

 

So yeah, there's my Hookshot related rambling post. Feels good to get some of this stuff off my chest.

[Orithan]

When I look back at LQftH 1, what sticks out in my mind is the mismatch of ideas Moosh attempted, regardless of how they worked out in the end. It was not afraid to explore unknown territory. Even if some of the things are evil incarnate and should never exist (LW Level 7 and DW Level 4 are both huge examples of this that come to mind), everything it did lent the quest a special charm. I daresay that it is like Parallel Worlds in this regard, where the often bad design defined the hack's charm in a good way.

Replacing the horrible dungeons with ones that are less bad will overall do the quest a favor; but I am not sure how far you can go without removing the charm the quest had in the first place. Like how Parallel Remodel failed to capture the charm of Parallel Worlds had.

Edited by Orithan, 06 May 2018 - 08:46 AM.

[klop422]

I can't say I've ever played either (though I plan to do both at some point), so I can't comment on the 'charm' of either quest, but if you were to replace bad dungeons with better ones, you could think of it as a sort of Master Quest/Second Quest?

That's all I can give at the moment, but maybe it helps?

 

EDIT: RE LQftH3 and your ideas for it, do the ideas have to be for a sequel? If not, you could make it a separate quest, or a 'reboot of the franchise'?

Edited by klop422, 06 May 2018 - 11:01 AM.

[Avaro]

LQftH2 proves that an update like this can be the great. I really wouldn't mind. Never really played the original 1st one, so that might explain why I wouldn't mind. For some it might be sad to see the original quest erased though, so to speak. In hookshot 2's case though, I didn't mind either because it's genuinely better. I'd say go for it if you want to.

 

Also it only makes sense if it'd turn out to be better than hookshot 2, because your design skills always improve, but that'd certainly be odd if you then play the games in order afterwards. Not sure what to say on this. Hookshot 2 is quite hard to top though. Maybe it's fine if they are different enough in ideas.

[Sheik]

Here we go getting all metaphysical about ZQuesting. Well! Diachronic personal identity! I say it will remain LQftH1 / 2 (even) if you rework it as lined out. And no worries about shooting for that thrird installment either, it will be like the Blood and Ice Cream Trilogy (in the best sense).

[Deedee]

Keep the most memorable stuff, polish it, improve upon it, then rebuild everything around that. Level 1's portal gimmick worked really well. The problem is that there was very little indication the portal had more than 2 destinations. Level 2 was really memorable, but what the hell kind of dungeon item is the book? Level 3 was amazing for a water level, managing to do a lot of new things without scripting at the time, but there's a few negatives, such as potentially locking yourself out of 2 dungeon rooms if you choose the right key door in a "choose your key door" segment and the eye statue to get the flippers stumped a lot of people. Etc, etc...

Level 7 I'd keep the general idea of (otherwise the joke of Level 7 in Hookshot 2 doesn't work), but I'd redesign it so that the sideview section doesn't require pixel-perfect pit script shenanigans and so that the darkness isn't inconsistent with the lens. And you know, generally make it not trash.

Overall, the first 7 levels aren't too bad, although level 4 was a bit janky and easy to get lost in and had a nonsensical Din's Fire trigger. 

Spoiler

Level 8 needs a mechanics overhaul, because sideview is ass and feather is ass. 'nuff said. Level 9 needs to be something other than just... what it is. It's the """final level""", at least try to make it believeable.

The plot twist of "you're only halfway through the game!" was an incredible thing and is my favorite reaction when seeing people play it blind, the problem is that the second half, let's be honest, plays like ass. This is the part of the game that needs the redesign the most, because there's very poor execution and generally things that don't work here. This could have been a perfect opportunity to expand on shit the first half did with it's dungeons whilst adding in new stuff as well, leading them to their logical endgame conclusion, but instead we get abominations like the boring dark level 5, the anticlimax of dark level 7, the horrendous dark level 4, the forced-damage tanking dark level 1, the kind of eh dark level 2 and dark level 3, and just wtf is dark level 6 with only 4 goddamn rooms comeon now.

Dark level 1 and possibly Dark level 5 are the most salvageable here, but they'd need extensive rework. You once told me the idea with Dark level 1 was basically Yuurei's Poison Corridor; why not do that, combined with the portal trick from level 1, and maybe have entire rooms filled with neurotoxin that kill you if you stay in the room too long as foreshadowing for later? Dark level 5's sky theme would be the perfect opportunity to have the infamous Airman Stage references, since level 5 light world was crossover tower after all. 

For the rest, I'd suggest doing new shit but with traces of the light world counterparts. Dark level 2, for example, could be a dark pyramid-esque tomb, but you'd also have to stealth your way around tomb-guarders Phantom-Hourglass styled. etc, etc...

Finally, the final dungeon was actually really good; it was Light World levels of quality and felt fitting as a final dungeon. This could have been the perfect opportunity to mix and mash shit from previous dungeons, combine them in new ways and force you to think (for example, you could mix the poison floors of dark level 1 with the phantom stealth of dark level 2, etc).

People liked Hookshot 1 for it's extreme variety and making it all work in ways that wasn't complete arse. It had a lot of charm in it, and it had so much creativity. So long as you keep that creativity, charm, and variety, and keep the good things people remember, it should still be the same quest in spirit.

Edited by Dimentio, 06 May 2018 - 12:29 PM.

[Jamian]

I would personally prefer to have you work on a whole new quest. I, too, cringe when I watch people playing my older quests, but I prefer to just let them be. I've briefly considered, at some point, updating some of my early quests, but the more I thought about things I'd want to change, and the more I felt the end result would be a different quest altogether, because fixing some of the issues I noticed would pretty much require a complete overhaul. So I figured my time, should I ever again find the time to build a new big quest, would be better spent creating something entirely new.

 

How about this:

 

The quest starts with the word "PLOT" appearing on a black background. A hookshot is fired offscreen, grabs the "PLOT", and drags it offscreen as well. Then the quest continues with a new storyline, as though the previous episodes never happened.

[Anthus]

Moosh finish LQftH3.

 

Nah, but even though I haven't released a real, full quest, I can relate. In fact, it's why I don't finish stuff, cause I look back on the parts I made years ago, and I'm like "man, that shit was weak". Then I get all disorganized, and lose motivation.

 

What I'd try to do if you wanted to re-vamp your old stuff is, just have two versions. Like a "Master Quest", or "DX" version, that way you don't run into the "grandfather's ax" scenario, if people want to play the old stuff. IIRC, didn't you do that with LQftH2, with a legacy mode?

 

Either way, I'll try pretty much anything you make.