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Changes for the Future


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#16 NewJourneysFire

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 07:25 PM

Considering all this, I have an alternate proposal: instead of SOTW why not have a monthly(?) ZC showcase? A centralised place for people to share what they've been working on, whether it be screens, maps, subscreens, enemies, music, scripts, etc. - essentially mini expos without individual user-made project pages. Just a single post (or multiple if the month has been productive). Much like the site news actually, but with community feedback. You could even showcase select updates made to project pages in addition to submissions made directly to the showcase host, since some creators might not know (or care) that there's a showcase.

I suggest Dimentio should run this hypothetical contest. 



#17 Avaro

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 07:26 PM

Noo you can't kill SotW. It's been going forever. And the SotW Archive site is fantastic.


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#18 NewJourneysFire

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 07:29 PM

Nobody's killing anything Avataro.



#19 NoeL

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 08:28 PM

Noo you can't kill SotW. It's been going forever. And the SotW Archive site is fantastic.

The archive will still exist, and the longevity of something isn't a valid reason to keep it on life support. All good things must come to an end and all that.



#20 Shane

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 09:06 PM

I found a bunch of old screenshots, and I've got a lot of projects going on now. So I can definitely submit bi-weekly to help the contest.



#21 Dimentio

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 06:04 AM

I just don't think the contest is fun anymore if it's forced to be bi-weekly. If I have to wait half an entire month just to see my screenshot, then I'm just going to post my shit in discord since then I don't have to wait 2 weeks to get minimal comments on my screens, I can get my minimal comments in about a day. Cause, you know, that's half of what SotW is: getting constructive feedback on shit you make. Why the hell should you wait 2 weeks just to get feedback on a single screen?

 

I avoid submitting to SotW until the last minute because then I have to wait minimal amount of time between posting and receiving feedback, and because the deadline gets me to hurry up and submit something; and I suspect many people are the same way. All I see under this decision is the same amount of shots per-contest, but having to wait an extra week to see them; and hosts still having to beg from time to time. Then you'll just use that as an excuse to kill off the contest entirely, because "clearly there isn't enough activity to sustain a biweekly contest". You know, despite the fact that ZC is very active right now, even if most of the activity is on discord.

 

You know what makes activity happen? Deadlines. Not longer waiting periods. Why do you think 2 Week contests convince people to finish quests, when they can't finish something of the same caliber in say 6 months? Because deadlines rush people into hurrying the hell up and submitting. If ya'll really wanted to boost activity, why not post consistent reminders of approaching deadlines? That's something that the old method lacked; and it was only the inconsistent reminders that urged me to post something. This change feels like you're just jumping on something when the contest was just in a bit of a dry spell.


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#22 NewJourneysFire

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 07:24 AM

I just don't think the contest is fun anymore if it's forced to be bi-weekly. If I have to wait half an entire month just to see my screenshot, then I'm just going to post my shit in discord since then I don't have to wait 2 weeks to get minimal comments on my screens, I can get my minimal comments in about a day. Cause, you know, that's half of what SotW is: getting constructive feedback on shit you make. Why the hell should you wait 2 weeks just to get feedback on a single screen?

https://www.purezc.n...showtopic=49614
 

SotW has always been just a contest. Stop trying to redefine its purpose with your own purpose for it and stop trying to base every decision everybody makes around "what Dimentio wants".


The archive will still exist, and the longevity of something isn't a valid reason to keep it on life support. All good things must come to an end and all that.

Unfortunately, a showcase was attempted before. My response to your comment was just a bit of mild harmless humor. 

Because it was attempted before, I highly doubt PureZC wants to go in that direction again. 



#23 Nathaniel

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 08:16 AM

I just don't think the contest is fun anymore if it's forced to be bi-weekly.

Perhaps not for you personally.  But I don't think this is true for most people here.  Each contest itself is still the same contest, despite being less often.
 

 

If I have to wait half an entire month just to see my screenshot, then I'm just going to post my shit in discord since then I don't have to wait 2 weeks to get minimal comments on my screens, I can get my minimal comments in about a day.

There is also the quest screenshot thread.  People use it all the time and still submit the same shot (sometimes after a few tweaks) to SotW.  It's possible to use those other locations as a starting point and then to use SotW as a sort of final critique if you wish.  Sure you have to wait.  I know that's not something that a lot of young people in the current age are used to doing much of, but it's part of life.
 

 

...the deadline gets me to hurry up and submit something; and I suspect many people are the same way.

Key empasis on "suspect" here.  You are assuming that most people are just like you.  If they were (at least in this regard), that would be fantastic, and we probably wouldn't be needing this conversation right now.  With so many SotW's being delayed, it's clear to me that the weekly deadlines have not motivated people to submit enough.  People have their reasons too.  Busy with other stuff, lack of progress on their work, lack of confidence in their own screenshots (or at least recent ones), and you name it.  Moreover, to some, it's just not important enough to them to hurry up or miss the opportunity, because they know there will be more opportunities in the future when they are finally ready to submit something.
 

 

Then you'll just use that as an excuse to kill off the contest entirely, because "clearly there isn't enough activity to sustain a biweekly contest"

Slippery slope fallacy.  I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but one thing doesn't always lead to another.  Sometimes you have to make a change with the hope that it will improve both the quality and the longevity of the contest.  If it fails, then I think NoeL's point is made about keeping a dying contest on life support, meaning it wouldn't have been any different if we changed nothing anyway.
 

 

If ya'll really wanted to boost activity, why not post consistent reminders of approaching deadlines? That's something that the old method lacked; and it was only the inconsistent reminders that urged me to post something.

How are consistent reminders going to be any different than inconsistent ones?  Both intend to get people to submit more, and I think both would fail for the same reason.  Again, I don't think that people are as motived by deadlines as you think they are.
 

 

This change feels like you're just jumping on something when the contest was just in a bit of a dry spell.

I don't blame you for thinking that, due to our opaqueness on the matter until this thread was created.  So guilty as charged there, and sorry for those who would have wanted to see staff thoughts before a decision was made (assuming transparency would include that sort of thing), of which I think a matter like this would have been at least somewhat manageable.  It probably would have gone back and forth a lot though, like a city council meeting would.  But old habits die hard I guess.
But staff have been discussing the matter for a while in private, and for some others, the writing has been on the wall for quite some time.  Once a week of pestering people to submit noticably more often than not needing to do so is a sign that once a week is no longer sustainable as things are.  Pestering people even more is just going to annoy people, even if done at consistent intervals.  I wouldn't want to see that tireless burden on anybody who hosts SotW, unless they really like to do that sort of thing.  Even a Dimentio hosting that arrangement would get tired of it eventually.
 


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#24 Shane

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 05:00 PM

I resigned from Screenshot: Challenge Accepted due to the lack of entries. It might seem trivial to participants but as a host, you tend to feel like you're doing a really bad job at encouraging people and that you're single handedly putting the contest in jeopardy. "Was this challenge open ended enough? Was it too open ended? Did I make a screen that new people are going to have a hard time remaking?" Questions like this ran through my mind when I saw a lack of entries. It was disappointing to have to beg instead of putting up the next line of entries. And while SotW has more leeway (basically no limitations of what screens you can enter) I'm sure the current hosts and staff feel like they are responsible for SotW and are doing their best to mitigate the blow SotW has had recently with a lack of entries by making it bi-weekly instead. I'd prefer this than outright closing it in defeat.

 

Two (obviously optional) ways to encourage people to enter without having to beg for screens:

- Add calendar events for each SotW.

- Encourage the much more active Discord server to participate. A lot of people on there don't even have or use their forum accounts.

 

I can't say for certain these methods would help at all, but I think the latter might be worth experimenting? I wouldn't keep it up if it doesn't produce any good results though. I'm fine with it being biweekly. It sucks to have to wait, but if it keeps SotW alive, I'll accept it. As I said before, I recently found a lot of my old stuff, so I will gladly participate with old and new shots. I also imagine when Joel is back from his trip, he will be helping with his weekly entries. :P


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#25 Aevin

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 12:08 PM

I think those are wonderful ideas, Shane. I wish Discord had a way of making a dropbox like we have here, where anyone can post, but they're only visible to staff. Setting up a Discord SotW dropbox would be ideal.

 

To be clear, if turnout increases, I have no problem increasing the frequency to whatever it needs to be. The current schedule is based on the idea that the rate we get shots fits this schedule already. I will say that as of right now, we've only received a single shot submission for the upcoming contest on September 8th. There's still some time to go, but if you all want more frequent contests, the best way to make that happen is to submit high quality shots to support it.


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#26 HeroOfFire

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 10:46 AM

So I don't post much on Pure unless I have something ZC related, but...

 

I made a bit of a goal / challenge / totally not a new years resolution to post a Map every month, and will continue doing that even if MotM gets spaced out.

 

This makes me think. Maybe have things like MotM and SotW still Monthly / Weekly if there is SOME turnout, otherwise delay a Month / Week, but just one delay per posting, and only if turnout was really bad.

 

I'm a bit bad at keeping up with SotW deadlines, and should just submit whenever, rather than trying to post the day before and often missing. After all, when I do post something, it's fun to show off what can be in in ZC, rather than just showing off screen design or palettes. And I get this feeling that a lot of questmakers feel SotW is only for the latter, and not the former. There is nothing wrong showing off either. Both can give inspiration to others.


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