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#1 Reflectionist

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 03:14 PM

Hey, folks.

I'm having a lot of trouble with using the editor and not wanting to mess up existing stuff in existing tilesets.

Is there a qst file that's literally as empty and bare as possible so I can start from the ground up? I really want to teach myself the ins and outs of everything one at a time (as its relevant to my quest) without getting overwhelmed by all of the different options.

Mainly that I don't really know how to customize something (like a CSet) without messing up a million other things. But also, I should start with tiles that are hard-coded, right? I can easily replace those, but looking at 100+ tile pages and even through the .txt, its a rough time figuring that stuff out.

I dunno, I've been doing a lot of research on game design and want to start as fresh as possible, to make sure I have an understanding of all the mechanics involved, so I can make a polished product.

And also, I still can't code, but I may be able to import the scripts I need right off the bat and have those ready to go before I even do anything but get Link walking around a blank screen with tile mods acting right.

I've been gathering item sprites for a while, now, and editing them in Paint.net, so I have a good idea of everything I need, but I'm going to have to 8-bit them--they're MC style.

Edited by Reflectionist, 05 April 2018 - 03:18 PM.


#2 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 05:52 PM

There's this completely wiped tileset. It's a bit old, but I'd guess it still works.

https://www.purezc.n...&hl=wiped quest
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#3 Anthus

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 05:55 PM

Hmm, to each their own, but I wouldn't recommend that approach, personally unless you are prepared to spend hours setting up every sprite, and effect, and enemy tile.

 

ZC used to have a lot more hard coded elements, and those were usually all on the very first page, plus enemies (iirc, only thing still hard coded into a spot are the 'guy' tiles, and HUD elements). Now, things like items, sprites, enemies and even Link himself can have tiles assigned from anywhere in the tile pages. Not only does this make the location in each set different, it also makes their locations up to you. What I'm getting at, is starting blank wouldn't exactly help you learn, but again, if you want to, go right ahead :P. That file Shoshon linked should be good to go.


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#4 Reflectionist

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 06:28 PM

Okay, fair enough. But I like having the options open. I get really disorganized, very quickly. I know exactly the aesthetic I'm looking for in my quest, but its in bits and pieces of other tilesets. Trying to compile and recolor everything while not losing anything that I **may or may not** use at a later point is stressful, and at the very least, maybe I can wide-scale import back what I do need from DoR, Firebird, LttP, etc.

I get to keep all major Next->Combos and script related combos set up as a priority. Thats inspired by Vintage Dreams' combo set up.

Okay, maybe I can't compile every script myself, but I can certainly get everything I need sprited out and working right...right?
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#5 Reflectionist

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:01 PM

You know what? Anthus, you are 100% right.

How do I use a sprite palette to edit a tile? I see "load to cs9" is that what I'm looking for?

I seriously feel stupid, I just stumbled on "Extra Sprite Palettes" and it looks like it has exactly what I need.

How can I use this information to recolor a sprite before importing to ZQuest? Do I just recolor and hope for the best?

Edited by Reflectionist, 05 April 2018 - 08:15 PM.


#6 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:20 PM

What I would do is have a dummy palette for your Link colors.

You can then copy CSets from the dummy palette to the Extra Sprite Palettes.

Press C on the CSet and then V to paste into one of the Extra Sprite Palette CSets.
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#7 Cukeman

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:36 PM

what would be nice is a tileset with no unused tiles and with all the "blank, but in use" tiles marked


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#8 Reflectionist

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:59 PM

I actually just took a screencap of the extra CSets in DoR Hybrid. Then compiled all of the Firebird Link sprites... then went through and replaced colors to make sure they lined up with rows 9 (which LOOKS a lot like CSet 6), 6, 7, and 8 respectively.

I have no idea how to take the rows there and translate them to in game. Is that the Sprite Pal number under the specific tunicring item? Does it correspond to this? Am I close?

I did not change the shields at all because I'd like to isolate them and edit those individually (please help! They can be kind of hard to see...)

Firebird Link is very similar to the GB Link and the KoH Pwnage Link, so I was hoping... is there a way to change Link's Tiles only WHILE Nayru's Love is in effect?

Those fishie Link tiles (GB) are just too perfect to pass up, and my Nayru's Love is part of the Water Element.

Also, I might recolor the other animations there to DoR H, too.

Would anybody like to see how I did?

Edit - In the tiles for Firebird Link, I see separate tiles for 'Passive Shield'. That seems to imply support for a GB Shield script, yes?

If I don't want to use a GB Shield Script (I'd want it scripted to ALWAYS be on L, but I'd be designing for a controller--do you guys use gamepads for ZC?)

Edited by Reflectionist, 05 April 2018 - 10:15 PM.


#9 Chris

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 01:35 AM

Not sure I understand you. Sounds correct though.

You can grab a c-set - not sure about paint.net, but the paint on my laptop deletes the palette data and makes grabbing the palette impossible. And the sprite Pal does decide the tunics color, only though the colors from cset 6 if not 4bit.

In the firebird topic should be a sheet with Link+Shield and the shields without link.

No. Not without a script.

Sounds nice.

What other animations?

Don't know about that. Could be helpful based on what your point is.

There are extra tiles for a shield script. They have the shield further to the side while walking and more in front for blocking.

I don't use a gamepad/controller, don't have one. But only because the typical quest doesn't use all that many buttons.

#10 Reflectionist

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 09:36 AM

I tested tunics and shields and they all work just fine, now. I wouldn't use MS Paint, but PDN is good for this kind of stuff.

In the GB Tilesets, near the Link Tiles, you'll see a page marked "Link Extra Sprites" containing dig, lift, push, pull, pose, swoon, dance, various instruments, mermaid and mermaid slash (would look sick with a rounder Nayru's ♡). There's also some sidescrolling swim tiles. It wasn't hard to move them to fit more to Firebird's Link style, but I do need to recolor them for DoR and redraw some of the hat lengths, which is honestly a longer road than just today.

My question for today was about Link Tile Modifiers. In my quest, I want to emulate the Ordon Shield mechanic from Twilight Princess.

The Ordon Shield is a one-time only item, right? Once Link loses it, he can only get the regular Wooden Shield. Functionally, they're the exact same. Just that they're both in the game.

So when Link loses the "Hylian" shield, how does ZC remember which "Wooden" shield Link has before?

Do I need to set it up like "L1 wood, L1 ordon, L2 blue, L3 mirror" ?

Edited by Reflectionist, 06 April 2018 - 09:52 AM.


#11 Chris

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 10:50 AM

For Shields the level doesn't play a big role (there are no shield triggers after all), so you can simply use multiple levels (1 to 4 with 2 being ordon). The issue here is that you can't hinder the game to give you both wooden shields (you can buy items after all even if you have them already), so it is a bit pointless.

#12 Reflectionist

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 10:54 AM

I do have scripted NPCs and Shops for that, though. Technically, I don't think I have to mess with shop types at all.

#13 Lüt

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 12:23 PM

It's an intriguing goal, and I'm sure you'd learn a lot and become a top rank ZC expert if you succeeded.

 

However, I agree with Anthus. I understand where you're coming from, at least with palette arrangements and resource optimization, but when you get to things like assembling and assigning sprites, not just for enemies but for items and weapons and projectiles, especially multi-component ones, and other essential non-gameplay elements such as subscreens, I worry you'll burn out with the tedium of all the minutia that go into such things. I mean, have you dealt with the subscreen editor at all? Life gauges, magic meters, maps and minimaps, triforce pieces, backgrounds, item selection arrangements, and making all the little graphical snippets that frame those things? It's probably easier to learn Adobe InDesign than to use that, and that's a thing you can take multiple college courses in (and the only reason I managed to crack the subscreen editor myself is because I'd taken those courses and recognized the familiar editing process).

 

If your primary end goal is a quest rather than an interface, I'd highly suggest picking a tileset that already has these things in place, and simply ripping out the combo pages, the tile pages, and possibly the enemy/weapon/item sprite banks. The rest of it is reinventing the wheel in the most tedious of ways.

 

And if you ever get to the point that you're ready to do things like that, then you can rip out the subscreens or items or sprites or enemy entries at a later date, because again, if your end goal is a quest, then you won't be able to get much design or testing done if those things are missing from the start. And with how tedious they get, I'm sure you'll want to take design breaks to work on maps rather than resources.


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#14 Reflectionist

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 01:52 PM

Good point, Lut.

I'm doing my best to teach myself with whats there.

And yeah, I love messing with the subscreen. Already had some success with that, but my problem right now is trying to organize it to have everything I need.

I have Four Bottles, Six 8px Reagents, and I'm still trying to figure out how best to set up my equippable Element Spells, which are also akin to quest status Triforce pieces.

The reward for finishing the Water Temple is basically a Watery version of Nayru's Love.

I'm not sure if it needs anything else, but I made these tiles for it. https://drive.google...ew?usp=drivesdk

Ideally, casting Nayru's Love would look like Link magically force-pulling water from offscreen Left and Right, and would trigger the MerLink and MerLink_Slash Sprites. Anyone have any ideas for that? I don't even know if I can get this set up AS Nayru's Love, much less do the scripting legwork.

Ya know, Zelda meets Avatar: The Last Airbender.

I don't have a problem with the subscreen editor, actually. I daresay that the Link Sprites and Tile Mods were my biggest issue right now. Weapon Sprites don't look horrible in 8-bit, so I'd rather do that across the board and find relatively neutral colors for things. :-P

Paint.net is very forgiving with ZC's palettes, especially if you start with in ZC screencaps.

Edited by Reflectionist, 06 April 2018 - 02:32 PM.


#15 Lüt

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 03:45 PM

Ya know, Zelda meets Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Oddly enough, I was listening to JNH's music for the film when you replied.

 

Say what you want about the movie, but the music was grand.

 

Anyway, if you're good with subscreens, that's one big learning curve out of the way.

 

Still, the reason I brought all this up is because I've seen this kind of thing happen in other game dev scenes, and 95% of the time it just ends in burnout. It's not like ZC has the best track record with abandoned quests either. These kind of projects are always far more than people expect, and they only learn that when they try to do them first hand.

 

And true, I don't know your current ability or work rate, but most of the people who started these kind of projects were already quite advanced, enough that they thought they were capable of handling it. You just have to consider other responsibilities in life, both current and upcoming, and plan accordingly. The main reason they dropped these projects, aside from being burdened with the unexpected details, is because life simply moved on.

 

So, I hope this isn't coming across as discouraging. But there's a reason full from-scratch games, even the simpler ones, are almost entirely done by a team and not an individual. At the least, take it step by step, but don't be afraid to fall back on existing resources and setups if you can't pull off everything you want.

 

At any rate, your ideas sound nice and I hope you can finish the project.


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