...But we can also see from the humans' perspective that...
You may see from that perspective, but...
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down. I didn't say that robots being unliving resources was MY perspective OR your perspective. What I was trying to say is that's how the humans in the game would see it, the humans in charge of the Maverick Hunters, for instance. I wasn't trying to justify their perspective at all. What I was trying to say is that BECAUSE of their perspective, we can see how they'd consider the Reploid army a threat. I didn't say they were right or wrong. I was just explaining why they would be motivated to send the Maverick Hunters after the Reploid army. When I said it was understandable, I meant that we could understand what was going on in their heads, I never said that you or I should AGREE with it.
That said I do get where the society presented is coming from on the 'fear of a military threat' front, as they've been burned so recently- but if the Maverick Hunters can tear apart the Repliforce themselves, they didn't really need to fear them, now did they?
Um, they sent the Maverick Hunters to deal with the Reploid army because they feared them. I don't know whether the humans thought the battle would be easy for the Maverick Hunters or not (probably not as the player is meant to feel they are taking on a capable opponent). I think one of the major reasons it was so urgent was because, IIRC, the Reploid army was built to protect the humans from Mavericks to begin with. It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure that's why they were built. It would be frightening to lose that layer of protection from the Mavericks.
IF I'm correct in saying that's why they were built, then would leaving the humans to fend for themselves be justifiable? That's an interesting question. I understand them wanting to live out their own lives as an independent society, but if they were built to protect humans, leaving could be seen as making a vulnerable opening in the humans defenses... I'm not entirely certain if this is part of the story or not, but it could be an interesting wrinkle if it is.
It strikes me as something akin to when America (where I live) justified it's support of a military junta taking over the legitimate Chilean government back in the 1970s...
Now that's a very interesting idea. I like the story potential there! I don't recall anything in the game mentioning a desire to squelch Repliforce propganda though. As I recall, the humans refused to believe that the Reploid army intended to be non-violent.
I thought the whole idea of reploids back in X1 was that they could make their own decisions- that that was what made X different, and the repoids Dr. Cain built were able to go maverick because of that freedom to make choices and ignore orders*.
My understanding is that Mavericks are created by the infection of the Zero virus. And that Sigma only needed to reprogram the General and not the troops, because the troops are programmed to follow the General's orders.
It was my understanding that only X had free will, being more advanced and that, because of the events in X4, the Reploid army is starting to make that possible for other Reploids. If I am wrong about this, I apologize.
And Zero is based on 'Bassnium' and Bass/Forte's design, right? (According to The Power Fighters arcade game, which I think seems canonical.) Bass was violating orders left and right to do his own thing. I always thought Zero had free reign to choose his own actions. This seems supported by Sigma's surprise at the end of X2, where he's shocked that Zero did something different than he expected, going against Sigma's interpretation of "the doctor's" wishes- as in, he feels Zero has defied Wily's intentions in some way.
I'm not clear on Zero. I am working under the notion that, most likely, Zero had free will until he passed the Zero virus onto Sigma. At that point, I am supposing, he became like the other Reploids, lacking free will, but being very powerful. I admit I may be wrong, but that is what I was thinking.
Do you mean the Maverick Hunters are programming X and Zero with their missions somehow? My assumption was based on the idea that Zero could choose to defect or abandon his mission or whatever he saw fit- and if that was the case, I think he should've considered another way, or at least abandoned the fight- but I might've misunderstood.
I think that the programming in all the Maverick Hunters means they have to do whatever they are told by their commanders. I make a complete exception for X, but I am not sure about Zero. I was thinking he didn't have free will, but I could be wrong about that.
It has been a few years since I actually played this, so I'm starting to doubt the validity of my memories about it.
Same. I am probably getting some of the details wrong myself, but that's the story as I remember experiencing it. Now I am motivated to replay and verify information. Somewhere I have the instruction booklet that came with the early PC version (in English but still called RockMan X4) which has a lot of good story information, I need to see if I can find it (or view it online).
If you're right, then yes, that does make Zero much more sympathetic, and the tragedy beyond his control. A dark and depressing story as the protagonists have no real power to determine their fate, but I can at least get behind Zero's ethics in that context and see him as sympathetic again.
And I should replay the game to find out if I'm right about Zero. From reading your post though, I get the impression that the matter of Zero having free will or not is probably answered in X1-X3, which would explain why they weren't part of my memories playing X4 as it was the first game in the X series I played.
At the very least you could say that Zero was trapped in a locked room and Iris was compelled to attack Zero for the cause. Killing Iris or being killed is a difficult choice. On the one hand I can see refusing to attack Iris because of his feelings. On the other hand I can see not being willing to let himself die if she's willing to attack him. What would we do in his shoes, and what would Zero do? The game is asking us to believe he'd fight.
If you're right about Zero having free will, I do see a couple options. 1) Zero dies and is rebuilt... again 2) Zero decides to join Iris' side and the two of them make it to the end of the game, but the rest of Repliforce is destroyed. Losing her brother Colonel would be very hard for Iris though. The problem with this ending is that Zero would have a girlfriend from now on and his role in the series is clearly a lone wolf warrior.
But if the only person who had a choice was X, then it's still frustrating X can't do anything to change the course of the story. That kind of weakens him as a protagonist, if his capacity for self-determination is kind of going to waste.
That is a totally fair point. X is responsible for everything he does and his choices. My impression, (again this is my impression, take it with a grain of salt) is that X feels his first duty is to protect, serve and obey humans and he lets that overpower the Reploids' guarantees that they are not a threat.
Think of it this way. A squad of cops get a call about a suspected attacker. They surround him and tell him to "stand down". If the suspect complies with that request, he is peacefully arrested, but if he just tells them he won't put down his weapon because he is not a threat, the cops are not going to allow that to happen. That's their training.
I believe this is the same situation. X is saying "Colonel, lay down your weapons" and the Colonel is saying "There is no need, we are not a threat to you, we are a sovereign nation, you do not have authority over us". This puts X in the bad position of saying "If you won't put down your weapons, I can't say you are a non-threat in my position as a soldier. Please put down your weapons so I don't have to capture you or attack." and Colonel is saying "No." Does that make sense?
I'm not saying that excuses what X does, but you can understand how cops with free will, in such a tense situation choose not to believe the suspect. Free will doesn't mean you always make the right choice. Sometimes you just make the best choice you know how at the time.
I have no opinion on the acting though, I wasn't objecting to that.
I feel the same way. It seems the popular opinion is that the acting is bad, and Zero is a terrible person. I guess I assumed you held both of those opinions. Sorry about that.
In any case, I do think X4 is interesting, even if I didn't enjoy it, and I can certainly respect where you're coming from.
Thank you, that means a lot to me. Few stories are perfect though, and I am interested in examining it again to see if there are plot holes in it, or evidence to support what you said, or to make me change my understanding of the story, and simply to see if I remembered all of it correctly or not.
X4 is a breeze for me to go through, not because it's too easy, but because I enjoy it so much and know it really well. X1-X3 I haven't played as many times so they are longer and more difficult for me since I don't have them anything close to memorized. So I doubt I will bother with X1-X3 anytime soon, and I fear that's where we learn the important info about Zero having free will or not. I also don't have the X1-X3 manuals...
But I'd still like an 'opposing force' game better, where I just play as the Repliforce trying to survive/salvage this situation...I still find them more sympathetic than either my previous interpretation of X and Zero as presumptuous unethical killers, or your description of them as forced soldiers with no choice in the matter, because the Repliforce are still the real victims here and they get wiped out simply for trying to do something reasonable (defend themselves and escape). It's like getting shot for resisting arrest, on a grand scale.
I completely agree that the Repliforce are the victims. Clearly X and Zero's story, having to defeat the Repliforce has a lot of emotional drama because you sympathize with the Reploids. I'm not sure the Repliforce escape story would be as impactful as its own game... Probably it would just be a head-canon thing, where the outcome is just as tragic, where they destroy the Maverick Hunters, because the Maverick Hunters won't give up. The problem with that is that there's nobody around to stop Sigma anymore, and the humans are left at his mercy with neither the Maverick Hunters, or the Repliforce to protect them. And even if Sigma left the solar system, there's still the problem of the General's mind being tampered with. What harm would that cause down the road? Perhaps no matter who wins the battle between the Maverick Hunters and the Repliforce, it's imperative that the general be destroyed. Hmmm... not sure how that would work as a story. You might just have to leave the General's status as an open-ended cliffhanger. Not sure if that would work as an unsettling epilogue, or if it would be unsatisfying as a loose end...
It's like getting shot for resisting arrest, on a grand scale.
Oh... You used the same analogy as me, LOL
Or, as I mentioned before, a version of the game where X and/or Zero can make different choices (even if it means violating orders and exile from the Maverick Hunters, or being hunted themselves) to affect different outcomes to the story, with the endings we see being just one of the possible results (even if the alternate endings still pose problems and none of them are a perfect happy ending). That would've been much more satisfying to me.
That would be freaking AWESOME. Being able to make decisions as the player to see all the different outcomes. I love it. I can play the game as it is now, AND explore the other interesting possibilities. Wonderful idea!
My problem is not that it's a tragedy- I've enjoyed plenty of tragic stories- but rather, that I feel more sympathy for the opposing side than for 'our heroes' and I, the player, have no choice as to what the protagonists will do.
If we're meant to believe X and Zero have no choice either, that makes it effective and powerful as an inescapable horror story
Exactly how I saw it
but that turns the concept of jumping around shooting stuff as gameplay from an adventure in the defense of others, X being a ray of hope in a grim world, into a gruesome and horrible situation where everybody kind of sucks
While unfortunate and tragic that the Reploids get destroyed, I would ultimately view that as an unavoidable casualty, an obstacle that had to be overcome in order to the defeat the real evil, Sigma, and perhaps the General as well. So I would say that the final boss victory is the silver lining in the cloud, the cloud being the tragic, and terrible destruction of the Reploids.
...You can see how going from the original series straight to X4 made me think "Holy S***, the Mega Man series just got real!" and why it made such an impact on me.
except maybe those guys I the player am supposed to be shooting (which turns a game over into a better ending! My investment in the story is outright opposed against wanting to play it well. If Zero would rather die than kill Iris, then screw it, let him die! If he's forced to fight a war he doesn't agree with, then maybe he's earnestly better off dead!). That still doesn't make it something I enjoy.
I see how that idea would lead you to feel some dislike for the story.
However, after reading this new post I feel like there are a few thing about X4 you really respect and appreciate, even if it ultimately doesn't work for you, and that makes me happy.