Jump to content

Photo

Into the Eternal - Zelda 2 spiritual successor


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 NoeL

NoeL

    Legend

  • Members
  • Real Name:Jerram

Posted 02 November 2020 - 04:32 PM

https://www.kickstar...station/rewards

Looks pretty cool! I'm tempted to back, but games like this live or die on their controls. I'll have to check some of their other games first to see how they feel.
  • ShadowTiger and Anthus like this

#2 Mani Kanina

Mani Kanina

    Rabbits!

  • Members

Posted 02 November 2020 - 07:24 PM

1. You're not making a game on a budget of 5000$
2. They say they shipped several games yet they have not.

(Having various staff on your team having worked on other games in the industry in the past is not the same thing as this team and thismanagement having shipped at title).

3. They are new studio as far as I can tell.
4. Their website they link to don't exists.
5. They are saying they will ship this to literally every platform in existence, despite the fact that this is quite unreasonable.

6. They are not listing any risk analysis on the page at all, instead bragging about past creations and having a lot of experience.

I'm not going to say this is a scam (though the unexplained low goal bar does suggest it), it's likely just that they have absolutely no experience planning a project or understand the fundamentals of pitching their ideas on kickstarter. Even if they do get funded it's very unlikely they can manage the funds, and basically impossible that they will do so on this budget.

Looking at their kickstarter page reveals that this is the second time they are pitching this on kickstarter (And at half the funding goal, I should add), of note is that the claims in the new kickstarter article that mentions games that team member(s?) have worked on in the past was added. Which makes those claims look further dubious.

This entire thing looks like a bad idea to send money too and I do recommend against you doing so, as it will probably just disappear into the aether.


Also, more on a personal note but:
They also seem to have no clue what the fuck they are doing if you're actually reading what they are saying they will do in this game.

These dungeons are massive. Some of them may encompass close to 500 rooms.
For context, all of super metroid is somewhere between 250-400 rooms, granted, some of those rooms are pretty large, but some are also a single screen, aaaand that's an entire game's worth of scope. But hey, maybe they just pulled the numbers out of their ass..., though that does not give me much faith in the project.

This is what their level 1 map looks like at the time of posting this:

Spoiler
I don't want to harp on, but this at best looks like a mock up to sell the idea of "metroidvania" style map structure. Because the design here is just... off.
Like, I have played and seen novice quest makers here produce better things. The map does not indicate any lock and key structure, and earlier on the kickstarter page it's mentioned you can mostly complete these dungeons in any order... if they don't use any simple lock and key as implied by the map here, and don't use any major item upgrade lock and key structure like a traditional metroidvania... then that implies these huge dungeons will be super bland.

Also, the dungeon is excessively big for a level 1, there are also lots of dead ends listed there with nothing to them. The map is also arguably in one of the deepest and hardest to reach locations of the dungeon..., and this is the first dungeon in the game. That could potentially be a good map spot for a later dungeon in a game like this when the player is expected to navigate on their own and keep track of things, but not really for the first one. You're likely to have almost everything discovered before you get it.

Becoming more powerful in Into The Eternal is a huge part of the game. Inspired by Final Fantasy 12's job board, we have a multitude of skill boards that can be found, purchased, or won throughout the game.
This mechanic was conceived for a JRPG, I don't think the structure of something like this will translate super well to an action RPG, reading the page suggests they are going all in on it.

Into The Eternal features a unique type of cross platform co-operative play.
Cross-platform play is not easy to implement. They are also planning on launching on Sony platforms, so I should add that Sony is very anti-cross platform anything. This really is not a feature you should promise let alone try to make when you're a new development studio. In fact, even aiming for a multiplatform release is kinda out there and not the easiest.



I guess this got a bit long winded, it was not my intent. But this project really seems like their getting in way over their heads and promising the world without really being able to deliver on anything. If they couldn't even do a proper budget calculation for the cost of the project and present a proper development plan, why should anyone trust them with their money? It's not cheap making games.
  • ShadowTiger, NoeL, Nicholas Steel and 2 others like this

#3 ShadowTiger

ShadowTiger

    The Doctor Is In

  • Members

Posted 02 November 2020 - 07:25 PM

EDIT:  Ninja-post.  Reading now.



#4 NoeL

NoeL

    Legend

  • Members
  • Real Name:Jerram

Posted 02 November 2020 - 09:27 PM

Good eyes! I'm at work so didn't have a super critical look at it.

#5 Mani Kanina

Mani Kanina

    Rabbits!

  • Members

Posted 02 November 2020 - 10:26 PM

That's okay, I mostly just don't want people throwing away their money at stuff that doesn't do anything with the belief that it will, I guess.


  • ShadowTiger and Demonlink like this

#6 ShadowTiger

ShadowTiger

    The Doctor Is In

  • Members

Posted 03 November 2020 - 05:09 AM

It's a shame, because that is literally my ideal game right there.  D:  At least besides the other Metroidvanias, like the six on the GBA and DS.

 

I might pass it a little money just to make sure.  Got a big tip yesterday.  (Then they gave me some money.  :goof:  )



#7 P-Tux7

P-Tux7

    💛

  • Members

Posted 03 November 2020 - 12:54 PM

What the hell is that Roblox face, Mega Man Legends had better faces on the PS1


Edited by P-Tux7, 03 November 2020 - 12:54 PM.


#8 ZeroInfinite

ZeroInfinite

    Newbie

  • Members

Posted 03 November 2020 - 02:06 PM

 

1. You're not making a game on a budget of 5000$
2. They say they shipped several games yet they have not.

(Having various staff on your team having worked on other games in the industry in the past is not the same thing as this team and thismanagement having shipped at title).

3. They are new studio as far as I can tell.
4. Their website they link to don't exists.
5. They are saying they will ship this to literally every platform in existence, despite the fact that this is quite unreasonable.

6. They are not listing any risk analysis on the page at all, instead bragging about past creations and having a lot of experience.

I'm not going to say this is a scam (though the unexplained low goal bar does suggest it), it's likely just that they have absolutely no experience planning a project or understand the fundamentals of pitching their ideas on kickstarter. Even if they do get funded it's very unlikely they can manage the funds, and basically impossible that they will do so on this budget.

Looking at their kickstarter page reveals that this is the second time they are pitching this on kickstarter (And at half the funding goal, I should add), of note is that the claims in the new kickstarter article that mentions games that team member(s?) have worked on in the past was added. Which makes those claims look further dubious.

This entire thing looks like a bad idea to send money too and I do recommend against you doing so, as it will probably just disappear into the aether.


Also, more on a personal note but:
They also seem to have no clue what the fuck they are doing if you're actually reading what they are saying they will do in this game.

 

For context, all of super metroid is somewhere between 250-400 rooms, granted, some of those rooms are pretty large, but some are also a single screen, aaaand that's an entire game's worth of scope. But hey, maybe they just pulled the numbers out of their ass..., though that does not give me much faith in the project.

This is what their level 1 map looks like at the time of posting this:

Spoiler
I don't want to harp on, but this at best looks like a mock up to sell the idea of "metroidvania" style map structure. Because the design here is just... off.
Like, I have played and seen novice quest makers here produce better things. The map does not indicate any lock and key structure, and earlier on the kickstarter page it's mentioned you can mostly complete these dungeons in any order... if they don't use any simple lock and key as implied by the map here, and don't use any major item upgrade lock and key structure like a traditional metroidvania... then that implies these huge dungeons will be super bland.

Also, the dungeon is excessively big for a level 1, there are also lots of dead ends listed there with nothing to them. The map is also arguably in one of the deepest and hardest to reach locations of the dungeon..., and this is the first dungeon in the game. That could potentially be a good map spot for a later dungeon in a game like this when the player is expected to navigate on their own and keep track of things, but not really for the first one. You're likely to have almost everything discovered before you get it.
 

 

This mechanic was conceived for a JRPG, I don't think the structure of something like this will translate super well to an action RPG, reading the page suggests they are going all in on it.

 

Cross-platform play is not easy to implement. They are also planning on launching on Sony platforms, so I should add that Sony is very anti-cross platform anything. This really is not a feature you should promise let alone try to make when you're a new development studio. In fact, even aiming for a multiplatform release is kinda out there and not the easiest.



I guess this got a bit long winded, it was not my intent. But this project really seems like their getting in way over their heads and promising the world without really being able to deliver on anything. If they couldn't even do a proper budget calculation for the cost of the project and present a proper development plan, why should anyone trust them with their money? It's not cheap making games.

 

Hi there. I am one of the developers on Into The Eternal (a team of two) and I can clear up any confusion about the game.

 

I have been developing games for over twenty years. Most recently, I single-handedly developed Final Star and Pirates of First Star on the Xbox One. Probably my most "known" title is Mario Paint Composer, which has tons of views on youtube. I did that around 2001. I spent many years developing the FIrst Star Online series of MMO's.

 

$5k is not enough to develop a game on, but that's not the goal of the kickstarter. The goal is to essentially do preorders and get us to early access in January. The game has already been in development for close to a year, and much more than $5 has already been spent on it. What we really need are testers. That's important for a game this complex on so many platforms.

 

When I released Pirates of First Star on the XB1 I was the only person that could test it, and I had a bug in the initial release that prevented the players from progressing. I fixed it within 48 hours of finding it, but it was embarrassing, and it probably cost me a lot of sales due to the first review finding the bug and putting it ins his review. I cannot have things like that happen. I obsess over bugs, load times, clunky frame rates, etc.

 

I hope this clears up any confusion. The game is real, and we're about to hit our goal so it will definitely be hitting early access in January.

 

Also, I'm going to work on the faces I promise! Originally, you weren't supposed to get close to them, and I think they look ok from afar, but in the closeups it's clear that people are not digging them.


Edited by ZeroInfinite, 03 November 2020 - 02:07 PM.

  • ShadowTiger, Anthus, Russ and 3 others like this

#9 Mani Kanina

Mani Kanina

    Rabbits!

  • Members

Posted 03 November 2020 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for taking the time to register. I want to be clear that I have no ill intents about any of this, but what you have brought up have not really answered many of my main concerns.
 

$5k is not enough to develop a game on, but that's not the goal of the kickstarter. The goal is to essentially do preorders and get us to early access in January. The game has already been in development for close to a year, and much more than $5 has already been spent on it. What we really need are testers. That's important for a game this complex on so many platforms.

If the kickstarter backing isn't there to fund the rest of the development, then how exactly do you plan on funding it?
 

When I released Pirates of First Star on the XB1 I was the only person that could test it, and I had a bug in the initial release that prevented the players from progressing. I fixed it within 48 hours of finding it, but it was embarrassing, and it probably cost me a lot of sales due to the first review finding the bug and putting it ins his review. I cannot have things like that happen. I obsess over bugs, load times, clunky frame rates, etc.

As someone who has also dealt with the fallout in relation to a lack of proper QA cycles, I can relate. However, if the main purpose here is to get testers, then why is that no properly communicated in the kickstarter page itself?
 

I hope this clears up any confusion. The game is real, and we're about to hit our goal so it will definitely be hitting early access in January.

I'm glad to hear the project is at least real and not an elaborate scam at least, I was mostly under that impression already, but I suppose well see for sure when it pops up on steam, right?

I think my main concerns with the entire project can be summed up as follows:
1. A lack of transparency.
2. A lack of budgetary planning.
3. A lack of a development roadmap.

These points all feed into one and another, the kickstarter page is shockingly lacking in information on how you actually plan on pulling it off making this game. Keep in mind that you're not trying to sell a product here, you're trying attract investors, essentially. I can't speak for anyone else and it seems like you'll have the $5k in the bag shortly; But to me these things showcases that you're not taking this as seriously as you should. Maybe you have a budgetary planning and development roadmap, but if so I question the decision to not include them on kickstarter page.

Without a clear budget of what it will cost to develop the game and a plan for how long it will take to make it, why should anyone trust you with their money? Breaking down the entire process and showcasing your planning is critical for convincing people that you actually know what you're doing and can pull it off, you know? Would you pitch to a publisher without knowing how much it would actually cost you to make the game too? Like, do you even have answers to simple questions like: How many years/months of development is needed to produced the finished game? How long will the porting take to various different platforms?


In the absence of any presented plans or roadmap projections, I would have to make up my own answers based on assumptions. Which currently, does not paint a pretty picture:
The project will launch into steam early access with the intent of funding the rest of the development via EA sales. This being a pipe dream that will fail (if you can't get enough traction for a proper funding goal, how do you expect to get enough traction to get the EA sales needed?). The project will eventually either fizzle out into nothing as money dries up, or extra funding will have to be secured at a later date (how that is planned to be achieved is unknown).


  • Avaro likes this

#10 ZeroInfinite

ZeroInfinite

    Newbie

  • Members

Posted 03 November 2020 - 09:29 PM

I misspoke about the "goal" of the kickstarter. $5k is absolutely needed to get the game to early access in January. I am a full-time developer. I assumed it would be obvious that this small amount would be to keep the lights and power on so that I can complete the game.

 

The game will go into early access on Steam and then onto other platforms, including Xbox. I've developed long enough to have a good idea of what kind of sales to expect. Not only that, but I have another partnership with a platform in place for Spring that will be guaranteed revenue, but I am NDA'ed on that for the time being. So I have no concerns about early access - and again, these are things I've done in the past. I don't have unrealistic expectations.

 

I didn't go into details on the financial side, probably because it's not something I'm worried about. I've been doing this so long I guess I just took it for granted. You don't who I am. You don't know my work, and I'm sure a lot of KS projects take people's money and run. If it's something that more people inquire about I will certainly post an update to be more transparent, but so far it's something that hasn't really come up (until now). I do appreciate the concern, and I will concede that I am being naive to gamer's concerns - but it wasn't done so out of intentional deceit. As I said, I've just been doing this so long that I know what I can and can't do - and this is definitely something I know I can do. I once built an entire turn-based MMO in 3 months. Working 80 hours a week will do that.


Edited by ZeroInfinite, 03 November 2020 - 09:30 PM.

  • ShadowTiger, Shane, Jenny and 1 other like this

#11 NoeL

NoeL

    Legend

  • Members
  • Real Name:Jerram

Posted 03 November 2020 - 09:45 PM

I definitely think sharing what you "know" would be beneficial to your backers. Show that 5k can get you to EA, show your market research that informs your sales predictions, show your contingency plan for if sales fall short. That will be a hell of a lot more reassuring than "Trust me guys, I once made a MMO in three months lol".
  • ShadowTiger and Mani Kanina like this

#12 Mani Kanina

Mani Kanina

    Rabbits!

  • Members

Posted 03 November 2020 - 10:19 PM

I didn't go into details on the financial side, probably because it's not something I'm worried about. I've been doing this so long I guess I just took it for granted. You don't who I am. You don't know my work,

It's not really about if you are worried about the financial situation, it's about proving to potential kickstarter backers that you know what you're doing.
 

and I'm sure a lot of KS projects take people's money and run.

This is something that does happen, but it's not really what I'm trying to stress. What more likely happens to kickstarter projects is that they extremely low ball how much money they ask for, either because they don't actually know the costs of production, or they miscalculated how much money was needed, or they want to make sure they get funded.

Kickstarter campaigns all builds on the concept of trust, that those pledging money trusts that you can deliver on the promises outlined in the campaign (with some wiggle room here and there). So therefore it is critical when pitching a big project that you properly display that you have thought through what it takes to complete it, both from a development road map, risk analysis, to budgetary concerns. Like, put yourself in the shoes of someone reading your kickstarter article, would you think what is said there provides an image of a project that will actually come to fruition? Like, for craps sakes, the risks section of your kickstarter page is empty words of assurance, not a risk analysis.
 

If it's something that more people inquire about I will certainly post an update to be more transparent, but so far it's something that hasn't really come up (until now). I do appreciate the concern, and I will concede that I am being naive to gamer's concerns - but it wasn't done so out of intentional deceit.

I'm not claiming that you've done it this way to deceive, I'm putting fort the argument that all the current information that is on the table suggests a lack of planning, and forethought.


Anyway, I have gone on well enough, I think I expressed my concerns properly in my previous few posts in this thread and some of the argumentation I have put forward have not really been addressed (not that you're obligated to). I do wish you good luck on the project, but I can not personally in good faith recommend supporting it to anyone.


  • ShadowTiger and TheCentralScrutinizer like this

#13 Shane

Shane

    💙

  • Moderators
  • Pronouns:He / Him
  • Location:South Australia

Posted 04 November 2020 - 08:33 AM

No worries, Zero. Your game looks promising so far, good luck!


  • ShadowTiger, Avaro, Orithan and 1 other like this

#14 Joelmacool

Joelmacool

    Addicted to Overwatch

  • Moderators
  • Real Name:Joel
  • Location:Country of Europe

Posted 04 November 2020 - 11:12 AM

The game looks great so far! I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye on this project - I wish you the best of luck with development, ZeroInfinite!


  • ShadowTiger, Shane and Avaro like this

#15 Jenny

Jenny

    braixen

  • Members
  • Real Name:Jennette
  • Pronouns:She / Her

Posted 04 November 2020 - 02:58 PM

Wishing you the best of luck with development, ZeroInfinite. This game certainly looks promising.


  • Shane, Avaro and Joelmacool like this


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users