11 replies to this topic

[superpatch13]

What do you all think on linear, more level-like quests? I feel like open world is the popular Zelda style and linear can definitely be bad at times, but do you all enjoy linear quests? Or in your opinion what makes a good linear level based quest?

[Flynn]

I personally like attacking dungeons in order. I don't quite understand when people feel stifled because they can't just enter any dungeon they want. I like a quest to ramp up difficulty in parallel with what equipment I have. A game like Nintendo's Link Between Worlds was "open world" but that just made things too easy all around. If I'm playing someone's quest and I find dungeon 5 before 3, I'll maybe poke around a bit and then leave and go find 3.

Maybe players complaints about not being able to play out of order has a little to do with bragging rights. It's cool to be able to say (to yourself or others) that you were able to break from the path and defy what was expected, especially with limited equipment and hearts. So good for you, but I'll play in order. I'm always trepidatious about a quest that doesn't have their dungeons numbered, like I'm going to waste time in one by getting too deep only to find I need an item from somewhere else.

I've even seen complaints here and there that NES Zelda is on rails. Starfox is on rails. House of the Dead is on rails. In Zelda 1 you can choose to travel through most of the overworld and power up before even starting L1 if you want. In the last quest I made I had L8 open right away and close to the start as kind of a joke on those open world types: you could get in pretty far if you were good, but you couldn't finish it without a couple of items from previous levels.

A good linear quest to me means that while dungeons might need to be played mostly in order, you're free to explore the majority of the overworld. That's how both of my quests were designed, and if that feels constricting then boo-hoo.

[Moosh]

Linear design can be nice, though I do feel certain aspects should be tuned up to compensate for that loss of freedom. One such way is a well structured story. I would never complain about linearity if the game can present me with a compelling reason why I should do things in its intended order. On the other end of the spectrum, you can tighten up the gameplay. Stage based arcade games are some of the most linear out there and are at their best when there's no wasted space in the level structure. In an open ended game you can get away with having some pointless rooms to pad things out, but when your game is a straight line I expect the challenges to be tightly designed and the game not to let off the pace for a minute. Make me a straight line that's incredibly satisfying to run down. Or walk down even.

[Eddy]

I enjoy both open ended and fully linear quests equally, I think both can be really good in their own very different ways. For me, linear quests work well if they're designed similarly to LA/Oracles, I feel those did linearity the best when it comes to 2D Zeldas, so anything like that I'd very much love to play. Also if there's a compelling story and you get something like Four Swords Adventures progression, I would not mind in the slightest.

[Twilight Knight]

Choice is great, but if you simply have to do all dungeons anyway at some point, what reason is there to have a choice.

An open world game should give you incentive to do things out of order and not just be that way so you "have a choice". Allowing a lot of choices might take away from quality of the game, like pointed out by some others here, it won't do the difficulty curve, the story and other gameplay elements much good.

Now if an open world game actually rewards a player who does things in an unusual order, I like that. And the story should work well with so many choices.


I've just recently seen an LP on Eddy's latest quest, Legend of Link DX, and while it was open-world, I think it tackled things quite well. The story was accommodating for an open world quest and the difficulty curve was adjusted for dungeons via scripts. It could also be rewarding to the bold players that do things out of order, by giving you a certain powerful item early on.


In my own quest (WIP) I try to do some similar things and allow the player to skip dungeons and do them in any order they like. It's especially hard to get story things to work well when you have so many choices, but with some scripts and many string control codes I manage to make it work. I also ensure that the player encounters all of the important and recurring NPCs before being able to choose their own order of doing things.

I am however planning to not adjust the difficulty curve when you do things out of order. F.e. if you decide to beat a later dungeon out of order, it will be more difficult than going to the correct dungeon, but also more rewarding. I feel that's totally fair, since it's the player's choice to go there early and it will be very clear which dungeon is next in order, but I also feel like that if there's more reward there should be more risk.

I'm wondering what you all think about me not adjusting the difficulty

[Jamian]

A lot (most) of official Zelda games are actually quite linear. Both design choices have their pros/cons. The feeling of freedom you get from non-linearity is great, but it comes with the cost of having to make sure the player can solve most puzzles even if they don't have item X or item Y, making items less relevant. A good way to make up for linearity is to allow the player to at least do optional stuff in a non-linear fashion (doing sidequests, getting powerups, finding nice but non-essential items, etc.) and this is how great games like A Link to the Past or Link's Awakening deal with it.

[Eddy]

I've just recently seen an LP on Eddy's latest quest, Legend of Link DX, and while it was open-world, I think it tackled things quite well. The story was accommodating for an open world quest and the difficulty curve was adjusted for dungeons via scripts. It could also be rewarding to the bold players that do things out of order, by giving you a certain powerful item early on.

You would be surprised to learn that no scripts were used for the difficulty curve, I made identical maps for every dungeon

[Lordkronos]

It Never has Mattered much for Me I Enjoed a lot of Quests So Far what should i Say I can Enjoy Both Versions if They are All Very Well Made Curently I Play and Record Souls of Wisdom Again and I Would Say its a Linear one but In The Same Time it Gives you Much to Discover and Rewards you then

[Twilight Knight]

You would be surprised to learn that no scripts were used for the difficulty curve, I made identical maps for every dungeon

I am indeed surprised! I suppose it's easier to do it this way... interesting

[Nightmare]

I think Link Between Worlds was a lesson learned about being "too open world".

 

There probably has to be a balance.  Both need to be adjusted.  You probably don't want your quest too linear to be too obvious, but you still want a "critical path" that you want to follow.

 

-James

[Lordkronos]

I think Link Between Worlds was a lesson learned about being "too open world".

 

There probably has to be a balance.  Both need to be adjusted.  You probably don't want your quest too linear to be too obvious, but you still want a "critical path" that you want to follow.

 

-James

Ah Yes Between Worlds Funny Enough Its Stated as Open World and Yes You can choose Dungeons but Stil I Notized a Funny Think despite The Open World Everyone i Saw in Lps they Made The Dungeons Almost in The Same Order I Was Thinking Maybe If They Choosed another order They Would Had a more Difficoult Exprince I Mean As Example has Anyone Done the Ice Dungeon First He Caunts as The Most Difficoult one

[SofaKing]

Like anything there's a balance.  Having a certain amount of freedom is nice, but, I also like a game where the world expands as I gain more items/strength, and there's at least somewhat of an "intended" order to things.  Sometimes it's cool to be able to go somewhere where the game is telling me, based on the enemies, "you have no business being here yet," but still being stubborn and trying to encroach into that area as far as I can before giving up in frustration.  Sometimes it's nice where, for example, maybe I can do level 2 before level 1 if I'm willing to go through a couple dark rooms, etc., but in general, there's still an order intended by the questmaker.  The best quests are somewhat linear but don't necessarily FEEL linear, if that makes sense.  It's tough to pull off and separates the good from the great.