142 replies to this topic

[Cukeman]

texts

Now that you mention it. I think I do remember Rey taking the texts. But my interpretation was that she looked through them and put them back. If she saved them from destruction, that's a cool subplot. Although Yoda destroying them is cool too.

[Mitsukara]

Well, to once again attempt participation in discussion of a movie where I'm the only one who hasn't seen it: regarding the emotional attachment of the Jedi, I felt that part of what the prequel trilogy was trying to say with Qui Gon- and what the Clone Wars CGI show said much more clearly on various occasions- was that the Jedi had gone too far into the non-attachment concept and had essentially lost sight of balance themselves.

 

In the Prequels, Yoda was wrong, and he gave terrible advice to Anakin about letting go- exactly what he DIDN'T need to hear. Qui Gon's defiance of the order's policies was him being the only sane man (besides perhaps his own pupil, Obi Wan, who tries a sort of in-between stance on things), and the only one who could've really been the father figure Anakin needed (unlike Obi Wan, who tried his best but didn't quite get it in time).

 

One of the occasions from the Clone Wars show I remember is when Anakin saves Ahsoka Tano and some other Jedi from a building collapse because he refuses to let go of caring about them, against the advice of some other Jedi lady who thinks it's time to walk away. Anakin saves the day anyway, and that lady just scolds him again that it was for the 'wrong reasons'.

 

I also think Yoda went into exile partly out of shame for the fall of the Jedi, and partly because he genuinely felt he had lost touch and was personally responsible for what Anakin did. Because he was.

 

Also, I seriously hope Obi Wan's "only a sith deals in absolutes!" line was meant for the obvious, literal hypocrisy that it is. That too supports my theory that the PT Jedi were intentionally potrayed as being out of touch, having lost sight of what was important. Where we see Obi Wan and Anakin almost meeting in the middle earlier in the film when they talk on Coruscant, here we see them both falling down hard on opposite sides of the fence, or such I think was the idea.

 

Luke, in the original trilogy, then acts on his attachments and it pretty much works out just fine (you could argue that Empire Strikes Back's ending went poorly for Luke, but stop to consider that if Vader wasn't busy fighting Luke, he would've personally tracked down the Falcon and the others would probably be screwed!). Also, Vader does what he does in Return of the Jedi because of attachments and I would say that worked out too.

 

And here in the sequel trilogy, from what I've seen of The Force Awakens and the trailers for Episode VIII, Kylo Ren tries to burn his attachments. "Let the past die, kill it if you have to". That's, uh, not working out so well from the parts I've seen (methinks Han would disapprove). So I think one of Kylo Ren's (many!!) problems is that he isn't embracing emotional attachments, and he clearly completely misunderstands what Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker was all about.

Edited by Mitsukara, 05 January 2018 - 04:01 AM.

[Deedee]

[Stuff about Luke potentially dying]

I'll try and counter this without being too spoilery, but I'll spoiler it anyways just in case:

Spoiler

I'm guessing you know about Luke's fate from the "last remaining cast member" argument a while back in the thread, but double spoiler just in case you don't know his fate...

Spoiler

Luke's death isn't injury related (he doesn't die in a battle or from an injury or from illness), and it's heavily implied that he will return as a force ghost.

Spoilers on how he died without any other spoilers, context, etc (who's responsible if any, etc)

Spoiler

He commits force-suicide (as in he meditates and dissolves into force) right after he performs one of the most impressive uses of force seen in any of the films.

Edited by Dimentio, 05 January 2018 - 04:29 AM.

[Mitsukara]

Actually, I only kinda halfway saw what someone was saying about that, then stopped short and went to the next page. So I only read your first spoiler block. I intend to go over this whole thread again once I finally see the movie, whenever that is.

 

EDIT: P.S. I do agree with the general concept that the Prequels and Original Trilogy are at odds about what they intended for the backstory. They definitely changed stuff, like Luke and Leia's mom going into hiding on Alderaan mentioned in the official ROTJ novelization (where Obi Wan explains a lot more, like how Vader needs that suit because they fought and that Anakin 'fell into a molten pit'.... so I'm pretty sure these were legitimate backstory notes at the time. I kinda wonder if there's a whole extra deleted scene of Obi Wan explaining all that to Luke shot for the actual movie, that Lucasfilm simply opted never to release). So OT Jedi were probably supposed to be cooler than what PT Jedi were depicted as.

Edited by Mitsukara, 05 January 2018 - 02:45 PM.

[Cukeman]

I just want to point out that while Anakin deals with people in absolutes, ("If you're not with me you're against me.") Obi-Wan doesn't. Anakin basically said "agree with me or die." That's not how Kenobi's philosophy works. He doesn't take the absolutist position that anyone outside the Jedi way is an enemy. Sith are an enemy, but not anyone who disagrees with Obi-Wan is an enemy.

[Mitsukara]

While I see what you mean, the problem I was having with Obi Wan's claim is that "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is an absolute statement. Basically, I felt during that scene that where Anakin had hardened his position and gone way overboard, Obi Wan also hardened his own position, which is what I meant about falling down hard on opposite sites of the fence when they were both being more reasonable earlier in the story.

 

But Obi Wan is obviously still doing better ethically than Anakin at that point regardless of any philosophical statements, since Anakin has committed a whole bunch of murders and abused his wife and pretty much gone ax crazy. That matters a lot more. I just think Obi Wan's claim in that line is hypocritical in nature.

 

Speaking of Obi Wan, I am actually a little excited by this talk I've bumped into on Youtube of an eventual Obi Wan film supposedly in the works, as that could be a fun thing. Somehow I got old enough that Ewan McGregor became nostalgic to me.

Edited by Mitsukara, 06 January 2018 - 06:19 AM.

[Cukeman]

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not an Absolutist statement.

Simply believing absolutes exist doesn't make one an Absolutist.

 

An Absolutist is someone who allows their absolute beliefs to strictly govern their actions.

Their absolute beliefs are the sole factor in their decision-making, which makes them entirely predictable.

 

You can have absolute beliefs about many things and still be flexible in your decisions and judgement calls.

This means your actions are not always predictable.

 

It's a subtle distinction, but it makes a huge difference.

 

For example:

You could have two Jedi who believe it's always true that "Only a Sith does such-and-such", and one of those Jedi is an Absolutist (whose reaction is predictable) and the other is an Non-Absolutist (whose reaction is flexible). Being an absolutist isn't just about what you believe, it's about whether or not you allow your beliefs to be the sole factor in your decision-making.

 

TLDR:

-Absolutist = Absolute beliefs, AND absolutely rigid decisions/actions

-Non-Absolutist = Absolute beliefs, BUT flexible decisions/actions

 

(Yes, I'm that guy who likes to dissect logic and semantics)

Edited by Cukeman, 06 January 2018 - 08:11 AM.

[Gleeok]

Funny, there's a tad bit of circular logic in that one.

I would say that one can not opine an absolute statement (logic and fact are not subject to personal beliefs, etc.).
Although until something is known to be truth, even if it is indeed absolute truth, is still theoretical until it is proven. ...Uhh.. basically what I'm trying to say is that the statement "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is not an absolute statement...unless it is, then IDK.

[Cukeman]

It sounds to me Gleeok, like you are saying it's not absolute because it's not objective?

 

I thought absolutes were specific to the person.

Edited by Cukeman, 06 January 2018 - 07:14 PM.

[ywkls]

Not exactly relevant to the discussion; but the "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" remark reminded me of this.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=d8zSpV7b_oo

 

 

Back on the subject... in many ways I think the rationale behind the Prequels depiction of the Jedi was to show just how far they'd fallen. Here we have a group that regularly tests children and then whisks them away from their families to be raised as part of an order of basically celibate monks discouraged from forming any attachment whatsoever and trained in deadly fighting techniques. And this is encouraged by the state.

 

Then we have their devotion to the Republic itself; where when a group dissents and breaks away they're content to stand by. But when an army of clones shows up to fight to defeat the forces under the control of these Separatists who were basically minding their own business up to that point? Well, if it's to save a bunch of other Jedi; then they're definitely going to fight!

 

Whenever Palpatine is at the (apparent) mercy of Mace Windu; begging for Anakin to intervene- the Jedi Master is willing to take the law into his own hands rather than trust the very system he claims to uphold. He allows his hatred for the Dark Side to overshadow his better judgment and this lead to his unceremoniously being tossed out a window.

 

In the aftermath, Anakin is faced with the choice of do terrible things for the guy who could maybe save the life of the woman he loves or join the side of those who'd let her die and meet almost certain doom himself. In many ways, that final confrontation between Anakin and Obi-wan emphasizes the fact that neither side was necessarily right or wrong. It was the way they acted upon their beliefs that affected things.

 

Fast forward to Episode VII. Kylo Ren believes that the First Order can restore what was lost in the war with the Empire and for unstated reasons hates Luke and his father. (Enough to kill Han.) Whereas Rey knows nothing of these events that have shaped galactic history and only cares about the carnage which is being caused.

 

In Episode 8, these things are built upon even more. But I'll spoiler my remarks on that bit.

Spoiler

Luke has concluded that the Jedi failed. Even he failed, perhaps because he was trying too hard to be like the old Order. When Yoda calls down the thunderbolt to destroy the tree where the Jedi texts were held; he is in a way helping Luke to see that he's been clinging to the wrong things.

 

Rey wants to pick up where the Jedi left off, but find a new attachment to Kylo. Inexplicable as this is, she sees the chance for him to change; to affect the future and takes advantage of it. This leads to the climactic showdown that results in the death of Snoke. In the aftermath; she still wants what she did at the start.

 

Kylo, on the other hand, has begun to see the cracks in Snoke. He turned because he accepted his interpretation of events and when Rey's life is on the line; changes his mind about who he is aligned with. His pitch to join forces with Rey harkens back to what Vader offered Luke. In many ways, he too cannot let go of the past.

 

 

I'm beginning to wonder if Episode 9 will build on this idea even further.

[Cukeman]

Well... that's not really fair. Anakin's decision to join the Sith to save Padme was based on a lack of knowledge of the future. His dreams were a warning to avoid the dark side, as it would lead to Padme's death, but he misinterpreted them. If he had stayed with the Jedi, his turn to the dark side wouldn't have happened and Padme wouldn't have died. Yoda didn't counsel Anakin that Padme was going to die, just that the future was uncertain.

 

Sure we can say that Anakin didn't have access to everything the audience knows, but not acting to save Padme, ironically, would have saved her life. So even if the Jedi are too passive in general, at least they were right about that.

 

And I don't see how Mace Windu would be able to capture or imprison the Emperor. Even if Anakin hadn't intervened I'm sure he would have still met the same death at the hands of Palpatine. I don't believe Windu could kill him, much less capture him.

Edited by Cukeman, 07 January 2018 - 02:52 AM.

[ywkls]

Well... that's not really fair. Anakin's decision to join the Sith to save Padme was based on a lack of knowledge of the future. His dreams were a warning to avoid the dark side, as it would lead to Padme's death, but he misinterpreted them. If he had stayed with the Jedi, his turn to the dark side wouldn't have happened and Padme wouldn't have died. Yoda didn't counsel Anakin that Padme was going to die, just that the future was uncertain.

You're assuming what the movie seems to want you to assume; that his attack on Padme is what killed her. I've been always of the opinion that it was Palpatine sending the visions to Anakin to lead him into these actions. And when she dies, it was because the Emperor used the Force to make it happen to ensure there would be no successors to his apprentice and Vader wouldn't find her as a motive to turn against him later.

 

When Luke shows up, the Emperor is in favor of killing him but agrees to attempt to turn him when Vader suggests it. The later EU novels implied that he wasn't whole-hearted in this; sending Mara Jade to kill Luke. (Of course that's ret-conned now.) It was only after Luke was standing right in front of him that he went with the plan to turn him and even then; he wanted Luke to kill Vader to eliminate that same emotional attachment.

 

So, my opinion is that in the end; the Emperor manipulated those around him into doing things by thinking it was all their idea when it was actually his plan from the beginning. (Like by making the Rebels get the Death Start plans again only to lead them into what he thought was a foolproof trap.) Even his actions in the Prequels support this philosophy.

 

On one side, he's leading the Jedi and the Grand Army of the Republic to victory over those who would tear their world apart. On the other, he's guiding and supporting those who've separated. This is a strategy I call "playing both ends against the middle". His real stance isn't aligned with either side, but they believe that he is until it is too late for them to stop him.

 

 

 

And I don't see how Mace Windu would be able to capture or imprison the Emperor. Even if Anakin hadn't intervened I'm sure he would have still met the same death at the hands of Palpatine. I don't believe Windu could kill him, much less capture him.

 

I didn't say that it was... but, it might have been at least feasible if Mace and Anakin worked together. This is again a case of Palpatine putting on the appearance of weakness to get others to do his will. Mace Windu might have been able to see with the Force that if Palpatine was allowed to live only chaos would follow; but Anakin would have been blinded to that by his care for Padme.

 

Palpatine obviously knew he wasn't really so weak that he couldn't overcome both of them. (Power! Absolute power!) But by making that appearance and with Mace remaining the inflexible Jedi who seems to be going against his own standards; Anakin feels forced to act. It seems clear to me in the aftermath that Anakin realizes that he has been duped. (His behavior is that of a person who is bereft of hope.) Had Anakin then decided he'd made the wrong choice, he knows death is the only result awaiting him.

[Cukeman]

No, I'm assuming Padme died of a broken heart, as melodramatic as that may be (this is the PT after all). The medical droid says something like "She seems to have lost the will to live", which I take to mean that Anakin's physical attack on her is not the cause of her death.

 

Palpatine sending the visions to Anakin would certainly be a more interesting plot, but the movie doesn't indicate that's what's going on. We don't see Anakin having a nightmare and then cut to Palpatine making an evil stare, or in some evil meditation pose.

 

I truly believe the nightmares are Anakin receiving visions from the Force, warning him of a possible future. A huge reason for this is that Luke had the same thing happen to him, when he saw visions of Han and Leia suffering in Cloud City. Anakin is supposed to be much stronger in the Force than other Jedi, and I believe his visions are a sign of that. Also, Anakin had premonitions back on Tatooine before ever meeting Palpatine. Qui-Gon and Shmi talk about Anakin being able to see things before they happen, which is a Jedi trait according to Qui-Gon. For those reasons I believe the visions are Force communications, like Anakin has had since being a kid on Tatooine, and that Palpatine merely took advantage of them.

 

I believe that in an indirect way (because of the heartbreak Anakin cause Padme), Anakin is responsible for Padme's death. So in a sense, the Emperor is telling Anakin the truth when he says Anakin killed her. Even though he didn't physically kill her. That's why it pains Anakin so much.

Edited by Cukeman, 07 January 2018 - 04:00 PM.

[Mitsukara]

I hope it's okay to semi-necromance this thread; the movie just came out on home video a couple weeks ago though. I finally saw it, and I caught up on all the spoiler blocks! Here's my thoughts from a first pass... I hope to rewatch both films at some point, but I don't have my own copies of either just yet.

Before I begin, at the risk of repeating myself, a brief rant about the underlying concepts of this trilogy and the franchise in general... skip if long rants are undesirable.

Spoiler

- Why did the New Republic fail to have enough self defenses to not completely collapse after the previous film? What happened to Naboo and Coruscant and places like that, this huge galaxy of planets that should still have loads of infrastructure to work with, that's supposedly just gone now? Why does the Resistence even need to exist instead of just being a proper military? Why are the heroes losing the war again already? If you're going to complain about rehashing stuff, this is the #1 sin of the entire trilogy in my opinion, they insisted on reverting them to being 'the rebels' instead of bothering with the complexities of having an established successful government in place. Bleh.

- I also still don't like the 'Han and Leia's evil kid' schtick, that was the thing I LEAST wanted to see brought back from the EU.

 

- I also find it depressing that they try so hard to be dark (making this stage of history seem worse than the original trilogy!). Didn't we already do dark in Episode III? Why does so much mainstream film and TV try to be overly dark? The world is depressing enough, it kills my interest in franchises when they do this. My enthusiasm for certain specific elements of Star Wars is very high, but my curiosity about the franchise is so low I kind of don't even want to bother watching Rogue One except for the Tarkin, Vader, and Leia scenes- Rogue One just sounds super depressing to me. I do not care for this grim war-centric story they're trying to tell. I know it's called Star Wars, but really, the original Star Wars was meant to be an upbeat adventure serial a la Flash Gordon, with only a few war scenes... the point of the story was not endless war. Indeed, "Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker" implies that at one point Lucas intended the series to be the latter, and for 'star wars' to simply be an installment of Luke's adventures, does it not?

 

- Off-topic to TLJ: I dislike the majority of Vader appearances in the new canon I've heard about... heck, ever since iEpisode II, they've been frustrating me about that, and it wasn't because of Haydn Christansen, I actually halfway liked him. The problem for me is that they retroactively cheapen his redemption in VI by constantly increasing the magnitude of his cruelty and his crimes, making it so that he retroactively kinda wasn't worth saving... people forget that Vader was not in charge of the Death Star project, not calling the shots, and that he seemed to think the 'technological terror' was stupid. They lay at his heels everything wrong the Empire did, plus some voluntary child-slaughtering for good measure,  undermining the original characterization of him as an angry soldier on the wrong side, a lap dog to Palpatine and Tarkin (complete with being on a proverbial leash), a man who much like certain war criminals was 'just following orders'. He made terrible mistakes, sure, he was always meant to be flawed and evil, a bad father and a failure of a man, but exaggerating him into an absolute monster and playing up his 'darkness' beyond what we originally saw just poops on the whole story of Return of the Jedi in my opinion.

This whole new trilogy would be a lot more interesting and satisfying to me if they had instead framed it as a war the First Order had no real chance of winning; not as a monolithic superpower that can barely be opposed, but as a vicious, crumbling mess, something the heroes are trying to minimize the fallout from rather than having to struggle just to escape for an entire movie. The entire concept of this war seems not only depressing, but also stupid because the New Republic had plenty of time to prepare for this kind of nonsense, and should've had vast resources to do so with.

That said, with all that off my chest, I really enjoyed both TFA and TLJ! They have a great charm to their characterizations, good dramatic beats, good humorous beats, and a couple really cool moments. They try to keep doing the George Lucas "they rhyme" thing, but filled with so much subversion and enough new ideas (again I say, where does Finn fit into "TFA is just ANH repeated" comparisons?) that it does have a life of it's own. I suppose you could say I like the execution so much that it makes me able to swallow my dislike of the underlying context.

That also said, I'll start with the flaws before I move on to the good stuff.

Things that were problematic:

Spoiler

- How did Hux and Phasma survive the destruction of Starkiller base? A throwaway line, or a moment of setup in the previous film, would've been nice.

 

- I wasn't a committed shipper of anything from TFA, but I understand the whole Finn/Poe thing people are upset about. Given that Disney seems to be winging the writing of these movies one by one, it seems a shame they felt inclined to stamp this out without at least providing some kind of alternative (for example, they could've had Poe seeming romantically interested in another guy; I suppose in principle they still could though. Speaking of Poe, I still wonder if some early TFA script said 'Poe Antilles' instead of 'Poe Dameron'?)

 

- Adem raises an excellent point that Holdo's story could've been completely performed by Ackbar, for the better. In hindsight, I feel about Holdo a little like I did about the 'War Doctor' in the Doctor Who 50th anniversary special; why introduce this new character when you have an established, well-liked, underdeveloped one ripe for the task, who instead gets tossed aside in a quick scene(/webisode)? Just give these important scenes to your established characters and everyone would've probably been happier. Besides, fish-men costumes are awesome.

 

- I might've missed something, but how did DJ (stuttery guy) find out about the cloaking device on the ships? Or did he not know, and simply tell the First Order about the ships and then Hux had to figure out that they must be cloaked?

 

- We had better get some kind of actual backstory reason for WHY Ben Solo was so messed up before Luke's moment of weakness outside the temple. Nevermind who Snoke is (though that'd be nice to elaborate on too)- how did Snoke even get involved with Ben Solo, and how was he so persuasive to the boy? Anakin at least had the excuses of being a slave, of having his mother murdered by the sand people, of being surrounded by the excessively celibate and monastic Jedi Order trying to push him against having any attachments, to deny him what he cared about most. But Luke still seems to be all about his attachments, and was still figuring this stuff out so he was probably a flexible and friendly mentory, and Han and Leia seem like they'd be cool parents... so what went wrong? If they don't say more to clarify this in Episode IX, then I'll call BS at that point. I mean, even just saying he has a neurological disorder would be something, but they gotta give a reason why all this happened; this kid should've been off to a fine start. I hate The Omen/The Good Son-style arbitrary 'devil kid' plots, so if they get any of that on Star Wars I'm going to say yuck.

 

- Luke doing the whole go-into-hiding thing really doesn't make much sense and while I can accept it, and even work with it as a concept if the circumstances made more sense, here I don't quite like it. Disavowing the Jedi Order would be fine, wanting solitude for it's own sake would be fine, but why did he allow Leia, Han, and the New Republic to face the First Order alone? Shouldn't he have been trying to track down Kylo Ren and the knights of Ren after the massacre, instead of just sending R2 away with a partial map to Ankh-To and hanging out in the middle of nowhere for a decade?

 

- Speaking of which, other than saying Kylo Ren got some of the apprentices at the temple to join him... what happened to that Knights of Ren story hook?? It's not even mentioned by name this time! What?

Things I'm not sure about:

Spoiler

- I was all set to accept Rey's background as being crummy and pointless... it's a cool enough idea on it's own. She doesn't need to be a Skywalker or whatever, I kinda like the 'they were nobodies' brutal background. But... what's up with the setup to the contrary from the previous film? Why the X Wing pilot helmet that looked like Luke's? Why memories of Obi Wan talking to her? Why did she recognize the tree and stuff? Why the connection with the blue lightsaber? If this is the overall direction, why the super subtle secret moment (apparently; I missed it too!) with her stashing the Jedi texts? I think maybe they're just trying to have their cake and eat it too, by allowing this movie to stew with "nah she's nobody" and then whipping out some dramatic reveal in the next one or something. Either way seems dissatisfying and awkward now. Not a big enough deal for me to be upset about really, just sorta weird. Maybe they can make it work one way or the other though, we'll see.

 

- Rose seems hypocritical for stopping Finn from kamikaze-running the battering ram after how she acted about him being "selfish" trying to save Rey earlier. Not sure how I feel about this. Also, the only way it makes sense for her to have caught up with him is if her skiff was able to go faster than his- maybe he damaged his when he didn't deploy the stabilizer, or maybe she had more of an idea how to fix up hers, or maybe his was worse to begin with, but I dunno, I kinda have to headcanon that into making sense because the movie didn't do so.

 

- I liked Finn's triumph over Phasma and his proud 'Rebel scum' line, and the whole character growth he went through in the course of the oft-maligned 'casino sidequest', but, her defeat was way too quick and without enough buildup or any serious new characterization of her personally. It was still good, but could've been a lot better, basically. That said, if she somehow escaped that explosion, I'm gonna have a hard time taking the next movie seriously if she shows up... where's Boba Fett, anyway? He didn't have a very inescapable-looking death at all, compared to being trapped in a trash compactor in an exploding base on an exploding planet.

 

- The near-catastrophic mutiny in the Resistence might've been entirely avoided if Holdo had understood how far Poe would go for his plan and accounted for it somehow, but instead she gets taken by surprise. Then again, we know she's not their best, so this kind of mix up is a believable tactical gaffe in-character... as long as we acknowledge that yes, it was a blunder. I don't think telling Poe is necessarily the only correct answer, since the plan was sensitive information and they were (rightly) worried about a leak, and Poe had just been demoted- but his mutiny darn near worked and they had to fight each other to get out of it. For a second I thought the movie was going in the direction of the Resistence imploding without Leia's leadership, because it came awfully close to doing precisely that.

 

- I'm not sure how I feel about Luke almost wanting to kill Kylo before he did anything just based on a vision, that seems more out of line than anything else about Luke we see. But I'm glad they showed his ROTJ green lightsaber for that scene. What happened to it in the intervening time, though? Did it get broken when the house collapsed on him? I'd have thought it was sturdier than that.

 

- So wait a minute, Chewbacca can just handle flying the falcon all by himself through combat like it's nothing? I mean, if anyone could do it it'd be him, sure, but that's a two man cockpit. I guess he has nice long arms, but shouldn't he be scrambling, leaning all around trying to to hit too many controls at once or something? Especially with silly little birds distracting him. Was Han really not that important for the piloting process, or is Chewie just that good by now?

 

- Speaking of which, after Rey stole Snoke's shuttle to escape Kylo Ren, what did she do with the shuttle and how/when did Chewbacca pick her up on the way to battle at Crait? The way I remember it, she just sort of shows up with him and it's a bit jarring.

 

- I think I liked the blue milk scene, Luke's expression is funny, but it was pretty weird and gross too. I wonder if the new books or something will say these creatures are where people on Tatooine import it from... that would only work if they exist outside Ankh-To though.

 

- So wait a minute, most people seem to be assuming Yoda set the tree on fire with lightning. Whaaaaaat? I thought he was just anticipating lightning that was bound to happen anyway. It'd be weird for Yoda to shoot lightning. But now I'm not sure if I misunderstood.

Things I loved:

Spoiler

- I actually got a kick out of the "General Hugs"/"I'll hold" opening bit. Not quite sure why it worked as well as it did and the fight following it wasn't so great but the gambit itself is hilarious. It's so ridiculous, it's like the movie almost forgot it wanted to be a grimdark war movie for a minute and just had some fun, and I dig it. More generally, Poe's character growth was good and he was more interesting than in the previous film overall.

 

- Leia's force usage scene. I honestly thought it was really cool! And it's not like she did it without any problems, she spent half the movie in the ICU afterwards. It's a little weird considering what's happened to Carrie Fisher, but they clearly made this beforehand, so I can't fault them. I think Carrie Fisher would've been more upset for them cutting out her cool superhero scene if they'd done that, so I'm glad they kept it XD

 

- Finn is still loads of fun, still feeling like he's my favorite character from this new trilogy. He has a good arc here as he grows to understand the larger stakes and the implications, and commits to a grander cause than just himself and his friends.

 

- Rey was good too. I don't think they really overplayed her competence the way people are complaining about; the fight with the guards was as much on Kylo as on her, and that's the only amazing feat she pulls here. It's more weird that she was able to mind control the stormtrooper in the previous film than anything seen here. Anyway, I like her, and Daisy Ridley is great. However, Sailor Moon fandom has conditioned me such that I keep trying to call her "Rei" and having to correct myself.

 

- I thought the subversion of the 'wretched hive of scum and villainy' setup for the aristocratic casino was a nice scene intro. These movies continue to show a certain awareness of the time they're from, that Rose considers this the "absolute worst sort of people" from her experiences, much in line with Rei's deathmarch poverty background in the first film. This emphasis on economic inequality all seems very in vogue with being a 'millenial' american to me. I can see where some find it heavy handed or slow, but to me I think this whole thing worked fine and I found it relateable.

 

- Luke's scene with Yoda. Honestly, that scene was perfect I think. And the way Luke seemed genuinely upset with the history of the Jedi, and Yoda agreeing that they had made many terrible mistakes, going all the way back. I get a kick out of Yoda saying "Page-turners, they were not." This felt like the most satisfying nod to both previous trilogies I could've asked for, and a good feeling moment to tie it together. Though the hindsight realization that ghost-Luke is in for another "why didn't you tell me" moment, about Rey stashing the Jedi Texts is kinda goofy and amusing.

 

- The battle with Snoke and his guards actually looked hard-fought and narrowly accomplished, and they managed to parallel ROTJ and ESB stuff while making it new- this trilogy is pretty good at that kinda thing for the most part aside from the whole rebellion-versus-an-empire thing. Whatever they do with this plot in the next film, if anything, they did a good job of making it look like Snoke genuinely misestimated, and several layers of contingency broke all at once because he underestimated the danger of what he was playing with. Kylo Ren is insane, he's like an object that's sharp on every side- you can't pick it up without getting stabbed, regardless of who you are. Rey realizes this and shuts a door in his face, a nice closing moment.

 

- The "what happened?!" scene with Hux and Kylo in the throne room was great too. (Also, we do see that Kylo can lie without flinching here, given that he says Rey killed Snoke when she had nothing to do with it, and doesn't dare to tell Hux it was really him.)

 

- The damage to the blue lightsaber (the one that was Anakin's, then Luke's, then Rey's) is nice too. And the final scene of Rey holding the pieces and Leia talking about putting things back together.

 

- Luke's scene with Leia is wonderful, I'm so glad they got something like this in while they had the chance. A perfect last scene for those two to have.

 

- Luke's big trick with Kylo is pretty cool and a satisfying twist, and I like all the little details he used to maximize the emotional impact on Kylo. (I suppose Luke's sunken X-Wing is just some sort of fish home these days...)

 

- The imagery during Luke's last scene, the twin sunset coming into view especially. A great final scene.

If that's the last we see of Luke, I'd be okay with it, but I'd also love to see him do something as a ghost in the next movie. Either way works for me, so they definitely didn't screw up his whole character even if it was off to a rocky start. And just seeing Mark Hammill reprise his role gives me the fuzzies. Leia was great too, and it's a damn shame Carrie Fisher didn't get to do episode IX like she wanted- I'm sure she was gonna be great. This was good too, though. The musical cue for her in the credits was a nice touch.

I also agree with Barsoomcore's analysis of the 'casino storyline', that was prime Finn material even if his and Rose's efforts were largely for naught and even though DJ didn't quite make sense and felt a little weird.

Now, for a bit of early Episode IX speculation and WMGing...

Spoiler

- The Resistence will narrowly defeat the First Order with a clever plan that somehow blows up all their stuff, etc etc.

 

- In spite of the scope of the damage, things are all bright and shiny and hopeful for peace (with an undercurrent of "don't let your guard down", and lots of room for new story hooks to come). Somehow. Whiplash because they already don't care about plausible infrastructure in these movies, just tone. But they'll be a touch more realist and somber than ROTJ's "yay teddy bears!" closing.

 

- I doubt we'll get a clear, concrete answer about Rey's parents, but they'll poke at it more anyway and stoke new speculation. Or maybe they'll surprise me and do something really cool with this arc somehow?

 

- Big lightsaber battle between Kylo Ren and somebody... but not necessarily Rey again? Kylo Ren is unrepentant and gets himself killed in a foolish and violent tantrum, possibly with a busted semi-functional lightsaber spewing uncontained energy or something cool like that. He ironically does something good in the process though, maybe.

 

- Rey/Finn seems like the couple they're angling for, but we'll see.

 

- Poe will become a major leader and commander more than a fighter pilot, and he'll get to do cool stuff.

 

- Rey starts a new order of force users, but it's not exactly the Jedi revived, because she reads the texts and starts to understand what Luke was upset about. But she does not just "let the past die".

 

- At least a little more is explained about how and why Ben got so messed up.

 

- Snoke had another contingency of some kind that causes a serious problem. Whether he's alive or not, his influence will surely linger beyond Kylo's control.

 

- Ghost-Luke will appear at least once, but not extensively. Some sorta key scene.

 

- They might just timeskip and say Leia died or something, I guess. : ( But if that happens then the movie will have to be utterly different than what they wanted it to be and it'll be awkward probably.

 

- Billy Dee Williams? Pleeeeeeeeease? Pretty please with sprinkles on top? (if they do, he's probably gonna hug Nien Nunb, who's been hanging around in the background of various Resistene scenes, including just after Ackbar's death in TLJ.)

Crazy ideas I'd be pleasantly surprised by, but others might dislike:
- Poe could hook up with some other guy, clearly stated as suc, and have a genuine romantic moment with his new boyfriend. Finn is proooooobably straight though.

 

- Leia could actually appear at great length... without Carrie Fisher, and without any attempt at a lookalike. Perhaps Leia is wounded in an explosion, and needs a respirator mask to survive (preferably one that makes hissing noises and messes up her voice, but other than that bit of familiarity it isn't too creepy and she wears a lot of white and light gray still). Or something. This might be considered disrespectful to Carrie Fisher's memory, but she was helping write these movies, right? Did she have some stuff already written and desired for Leia's characterization that she can't do now? This kind of a spin could allow them to complete the original idea roughly as intended, without any 'fake Carrie' stuff going on. It'd be a hard sell for some people, but I'd actually enjoy this a lot more than a rough 'Leia died offscreen' patch.

 

- Alternative goofy story fix for Leia: Rey's origin is revealed, she somehow IS Leia. I'm not sure how they'd make that work, but I can at least imagine it.

 

- Maybe Ghost Luke has a 'vision of old friends long gone'- that is, maybe dead Luke has a scene with dead Han?? Conceivably. Or maybe Rey gets a little ghost-smile like the ending of ROTJ.

 

- Kylo Ren must confront Anakin Skywalker, at first seeing him as Darth Vader in full armor, James Earl Jones, the whole nine yards. But Anakin doesn't say what Kylo wants to hear. He tells him that everything he did, even the most evil parts, were all for the sake of his family. He tells Kylo that he done gooded. Maaaaaybe (but maybe not given negative fan reaction) Vader's mask gets destroyed- the original one Kylo had enshrined- and he gets a glimpse of Haydn Christiansen looking down at him sadly, filled with diappointment. Kylo flips out and throws a tantrum, but and promptly loses much more than just his own composure.

 

- Maybe we actually do get a small hint that Snoke had something to do with Plagius or somesuch, but they don't do it as straight exposition, more of a sly visual cue of some sort. Maybe, if he turns out to be an evil ghost or something, maybe he says something dismissive about old apprentices, then pulls out Palpatine's lightsaber handle from episode III, or something subtle like that. Did anyone else notice they used Palpatine's music cue from ROTJ for one of Snoke's scenes in TLJ? Or maybe he can do that in a flashback if we get a nice long flashback scene about how Kylo Ren happened and what the deal was with the Knights of Ren.

Every single thing I just said might be wrong, but I spoiler blocked it anyway. : )

How do I rate this movie...? Hmm. Well, rather than a number, I'll try to stick it in my order, most-to-least favorite:

Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back
Heir to the Empire / Dark Force Rising / The Last Command (these are too interwoven to count seperately)
Episode IV: A New Hope
Episode VIII: The Last Jedi
Episode VII: The Force Awakens
The Clone Wars CGI television series in general (what I've seen of it, that is)
Episode III: Revenge of the Sith
Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure
Episode II: Attack of the Clones
The Star Wars Holiday Special

(I think Ewoks 2: The Battle for Endor might actually hold a place below the Holiday Special, but I haven't seen it since I was a small child so my memories of that one are vague and super duper biased.)

...so not bad! Not bad at all. Not legendarily great, but fun, interesting, thoroughly decent, and mostly satisfying in spite of it's iffier bits. (For reference, I did like Episode III, but considered it very deeply flawed and much more problematic; then Episode I and below is where my list gets into stories that I consider more flawed than good, though each still has some sort of merit).

Though I only pay intetmittent attention to the franchise and still don't feel very eager to catch up on Rogue One, I'm still mildly curious about the Solo movie, and surprisingly very curous about the possibility of an Obi Wan movie with Ewan McGregor (and doubly so if they get Liam Neeson to stand around talking as a ghost for a scene or few). Turns out I actually do have some prequel nostalgia, in spite of all their flaws. Also, Ewan was great.

And I'm looking forward to Episode IX, so I suppose they succeeded. Not real eager to hear about a X yet though, but I won't be upset if it happens, just not sure whether I'd be interested... we'll see. Old man Finn might be fun...

Also, I wonder if the new books are gonna explain how Maz retrieved the blue lightsaber after it fell (with Luke's severed hand) in Cloud City. Hey wait, if that one still works after something like that, then that really makes me wonder even more what happened to Luke's green one after that one scene... unless Anakin was just THAT much better of a mechanic than Luke?

Edited by Mitsukara, 28 March 2018 - 03:21 PM.

[Cukeman]

re:mitsukara

 

I haven't felt 7 and 8 were dark. Intense and frantic sure, but with a lot of fun thrown in

 

My guess is they were saving Leia for 9 and that she would contribute some of her Force knowledge to help complete Rey's training, which would have been great. If they had known she wouldn't be there to shoot for 9, they probably would have had her run the mission instead of Holdo.

 

Maybe Snoke found Ben Solo through Force communication/telepathy, sensing him from afar?

 

Hoping the Knights of Ren might be individual villains for later films or something.

 

I still have no idea where the hoopla about who are Rey's parents came from. We never wondered who Han Solo's parents were. And we saw tons of other Jedi in the PT, so why do people see a Force user and think it's a Skywalker? I dunno.

 

I do think Rey's parents was purposeful in developing Rey's character and her drive to be someone and make something of her life, so I don't think we need to revisit them ever again.

 

There's a theory that Luke's moment of doubt where he thinks about killing Ben Solo, then has a moment of clarity and realizes that's not who he is a parallel for the time in the Death Star 2 where Vader says he'll turn Leia to the dark side, and Luke can't control himself and attacks in a rage, then calms down after cutting Vader's hand off and throws his lightsaber away. The idea being that he threw his lightsaber away after thinking about killing Ben Solo, and that he threw the lightsaber away again after Rey gave it to him. Symbolizing that he's not one to go the violent route in those times.

 

I hear blue milk comes from Banthas, and the sea cow milk is greenish?

 

You bring up a good point I hadn't considered regarding Finn fighting for the cause and not just his friends. Luke has the same issue when he rushes to Cloud City, where Yoda tells him that fighting for the cause IS helping and honoring his friends, more than falling in a trap would.

 

I think Snoke is gone for good and that Kylo killing him fulfilled the Sith tradition of killing his master.

 

Luke came full circle from staring off at a sunset on tatooine longing for adventure, to staring off at the sunset being fulfilled as a jedi master, that's really neat.

 

I really have a hard time seeing 9 as the end of a trilogy, it sure feels more like an ongoing episodic adventure more than a trilogy so far.

 

Emperor music cue? Maybe just a dark master music cue?

 

Yeah Ewan was great in 2 and 3, didn't really get much in 1

 

Edited by Cukeman, 29 March 2018 - 08:25 AM.