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[POLL] 24 Hour Quest Contest - Quests

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Poll: 24 Hour Quest Contest Poll

Best Overall

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Most Creative

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Best Mechanics

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#46 Naru

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:55 PM

My main problem is that I am gifted with slurred drawing skills. From what Russ did I can recognize a lot on the map. It is easy to read. I tried to draw a bit once more just to be sure and after a few rooms I had already huge problems to make out what the lines were meant for to show...



#47 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 03:13 PM

My main problem is that I am gifted with slurred drawing skills. From what Russ did I can recognize a lot on the map. It is easy to read. I tried to draw a bit once more just to be sure and after a few rooms I had already huge problems to make out what the lines were meant for to show...


I'm not sure if this will help or not. But when I try to create something, I use what I call a Zoom In Philosophy. I start with the edges and move inward. Actually, the first thing I do in any quest is create the borders of the overworld.

But on the drawing part. My lines are pretty crap to be honest. So what I do is I make the box layout first. The I separate the box by individual screens with more lines. And then I finally make the interior lines which cover the amount of positive and negative space I would work with on each screen.

I actually then Zoom In one more time on a separate sheet of paper. Here I make a drawing for each individual area that includes the original positive and negative space, but also includes secrets and points of interest. In this stage, I also assure than no paths are superfluous. If the path doesn't have an item, a piece of lore, a heart piece, a key, or a point in general, I will either create a purpose for it or delete it from my planning process.


Russ is more experienced than me with this in practice though, so he may have more advice than I can give.


I will say graph paper does wonders though.
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#48 Russ

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 03:54 PM

I'm actually somewhat surprised people are turning to me of all people for map drawing advice. My drawing skills suck. :P What I would do, Naru, is develop some short of shorthand system. If you look at my map, it's full of symbols. If there's squiggly lines going through something, it's water or lava. While I didn't do it here, sometimes I shade in lines that are supposed to be walls. That way, it's easy to tell apart the lines that mean walls, ground, and water. Little squares represent doors. A key means a locked door, an E means it's a kill all enemies room. Those ugly diamonds mean an obstacle you go under in the sand. Warps, heart containers, etc are all represented by different symbols. Even if it doesn't look quite right, I can glance and know what it's supposed to be.

Another word of advice: don't worry too much about making the screens on a paper map look perfect. If you compare the paper map to the in-game map, you'll notice lots of screens don't look exactly like how they were drawn on paper. That's totally fine. The map you draw is just to give you a general idea of the "flow" of the game. What screens connect where. You don't have to worry about all the little details until you actually build the screen.

As far as actually planning dungeon layouts and such, Maikeru's advice is very good. You wanna know the point of going down each trail. It also can help to have a "dungeon flow chart" of sorts. If I can reference this wonderful analysis of Ocarina of Time's dungeons, you might wanna do a flow chart something like this. These don't show actual rooms, but rather progression. In the example on the right, A might be "First small key", B might be "Dungeon Item", C could be "Boss key", D could be "Second small key". The dungeon is nonlinear; while you have to find both small keys, the boss key, and the dungeon item to complete it, there's some freedom for what order you do things. I'd highly recommend reading that article, as it explains how to design (and how NOT to design) dungeons very well. There was a video series that analyzed dungeons from other Zelda games like this that I can try to dig up too.

(As a side note, Anemoi's an interest case. If you look at the progression of the entire game, you've got lots of options, but for each individual dungeons, the progression's really linear (more like the middle chart) in that picture. It's not the best design, but I was really rushed for time given, well, 24-hour contest. :P)

This post ended up being longer than I thought. I can certainly talk more on the subject, but it might be best for another thread. A last note though, the grid paper template that I designed Anemoi's map on is here, if anyone else wants to use it. I downloaded it from somebody on PureZC (was it Anthus? I feel it might've been...) but I unfortunately don't remember exactly who it was or where the thread was.
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#49 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 04:02 PM

If the series you're talking about is what I'm thinking of, I got you covered. It's called Boss Keys by a YouTuber named Mark Brown.

Here's a link to his playlist that hopefully works from my phone.

https://m.youtube.co...hdWhsNsYY3NA5B2
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#50 Lüt

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 04:33 PM

... huh. Apparently I got Lut's and strike's entries confused.

Yeah, all you strike voters got struck! :D

But seriously, I'm surprised that multiple voters switched us as a pair rather than just guessing our entries wrong in general. I'm curious if there's a reason for that.

When I was making guesses, in addition to being familiar with some of the contestants' styles, one of the things I'd do is look at people's Quest and Project pages.

 

For example, looking at strike's project page for Operation RIghteous Cowboy Lightning, I see a lot of screens that look like they could be straight out of Faster, so I found his entry one of the easiest to peg (though I suppose I had the benefit of knowing which one I made).

 

Then, on a less-visited section of the database, I made this demo for a ywkls script just a few weeks earlier, using essentially the exact same dungeon style as I did for this one (though admittedly that one's harder to research since it's not posted under my name).

 

In fact, that's partly why I joined this contest. It was announced just one week after our collab on the script, and I was still "in the mood" from making that demo, so I decided I'd try carrying that style on to a larger quest.

 

I actually did drop a hint at my name though, also. When I put "641" as the author, it was a reference to the ascii key codes that you type by using ALT+NUMPAD. For example, if you hold alt and type 076, then let go of alt and you get the letter L. Or hold alt and type 035 to get the # sign. It's how all characters add up in the character map. So try alt+641 and see what you get :)

And congrats to Gouanaco on Most Creative! And, ya know, orchestrating this contest. It was tons of fun.

Agreed. Funny thing, even though he's been here 3 times as long as me and has more posts, I never noticed he existed until now.

I can gladly give tips, both on quest design in general and on contests. For contests, the biggest thing I can recommend is planning well ahead. For example, I mapped out the entire game before creating it. You can see it here. (I don't know if my shorthand is at all understandable, but that's what I usually draw when planning dungeons and such for ZC.)

Wow, that's much clearer than my messes. Proportionate grid and all.

 

I do agree that sketching ahead is important for rush contests like this. And for more advanced design in general. I never made many sketches when dealing with classic NES box-room dungeons, but now that I'd hate to be caught dead doing that kind of design, some manner of sketching is necessary.

 

For those concerned about sloppy sketches, behold my mostly-finished layout for the expanded 36-hour version of my final dungeon:

Spoiler

It's just a few general room shapes plopped onto a grid that I don't pay much attention to.

 

And as you can see, once I get most of the dungeon built in ZQ, I start writing other notes on top of it. And I have to get to them immediately, or else I forget what a lot of them mean.

 

For a less overloaded sketch, here's what I put together for the third dungeon:

Spoiler

The dashes are for the bridges that rise when you hit the button.

 

Again, it's just rough shapes with main items marked.

 

Though I should say, for this contest, I only finished the sketches for the first quarter of my overworld (the green part) and the first dungeon before the contest started. The rest I made during the contest time, with no idea where I was going, so they're a bit sloppier than usual - but not much!

 

ALSO! Another point regarding quick quest building in short timeframes: use relational mode and aliases, and dungeon carving mode if you have it.

 

Relational mode will let you set up a main tile and a collection of border tiles, which you can either draw or erase, and all edges will be filled in as you drag your cursor around the screen. It's good for things like rocks, water, dirt paths, and other ground detail.

 

Aliases are great for dungeons and other more detailed structures. They let you form a collection of combos that can be placed as easily as a regular combo. For example, here's a few of the aliases I built for WYD:

Spoiler

So when I designed the dungeons, I just plunked down a lot of those shapes and filled in the floors between. No way I built those dungeons combo-by-combo in 24 hours. Build those shapes one time in aliases, then place them hundreds of times after. (Hint for anybody who decides to try: press spacebar to change which corner you "hold" the alias from.)

Wow, you and Aevin fooled us all. xD

Would've worked better if Aevin had actually been on the contestants list :P

Oops. I couldn't have known. This is one of the "new" tilesets that was a zgp before. I just assumed the door combos were set up right.

I figured as much. I've seen this in a number of 2.10-and-earlier quests. Probably I'm the only one who'd find a thing like that because I'm the only one who has an obsession with mashing keys while keyboard input is [supposedly] disabled. I've even gotten perma-stuck in other quests that use a ladder to cross over to a bombable upper/lower wall in NES dungeon screens because I made myself end up sideways on a water tile and couldn't move back down to the main floor. Case in point.

Also, all midis used in my quest are inverted Zelda midis.

Oh, did you use Kurt's inversion tool?

Inverted stuff always has that confounding sense of sounding familiar while still not being able to identify it.

 

I mean, I like it, but... it definitely leaves me scratching my head :P

I will try to make time to play this between my work days and hopefully continuing to make the quest or two I've started. I found your quest fun and well designed, so I look forward to it.

Sure, whatever works. Thanks!


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#51 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 04:36 PM

On a related note here are a few examples of how I plan.

Overworld Idea (1st)
https://i.imgur.com/KMptVXTh.jpg

Individual Area Layout (After Overworld Idea)
No image. But basically just take a square and put more detail into it.


Then this is how I do dungeons.

Dungeon Layout (1st):
https://i.imgur.com/QDQg5enh.jpg
I didn't do anything extra here as it was NES style. I made the rooms on a whim.

Complex Layout (2nd):
https://i.imgur.com/ABgPfnJh.jpg
I personally would recommend going for a more square look on the lines. I find that I will start making any curves in the decoration process.


On a related note:
This is how the skull shaped dungeon looked a quarter of the way through decoration.
https://i.imgur.com/pJqgJ4hh.jpg
I wound out moving the item one room left, the triforce one room up, and the boss to the top middle.

And here's an example of that overworld map after completion.
https://i.imgur.com/dYn0Tv1h.jpg


I didn't go through the entire process for the NES style overworld. I kind of just built it by connecting things from screen to screen and filling things in. But I was just going for simple design. The more complex you get, the more planning you should do.

And really, my layouts can be a mess. I wouldn't be surprised if they look like chicken scratch. xD
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#52 Naru

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 04:38 PM

This indeed might help, my room-design never works out in the game anyway (and atm I still have huge problems with the walking flow, often running into solid combos (and not only after screen-change) and these are some interesting alternates.

 

If you look at my map, it's full of symbols. If there's squiggly lines going through something, it's water or lava. While I didn't do it here, sometimes I shade in lines that are supposed to be walls. That way, it's easy to tell apart the lines that mean walls, ground, and water. Little squares represent doors. A key means a locked door, an E means it's a kill all enemies room. Those ugly diamonds mean an obstacle you go under in the sand. Warps, heart containers, etc are all represented by different symbols. Even if it doesn't look quite right, I can glance and know what it's supposed to be.

Actually I also can see that very well. If I call my own drawing slurred I don't mean a detailed map, I have that problem already with the walls alone ;)

 

[edit] @Lüt - actually I can't do some things with my laptop. I can't use rational/dungeon carving mode since out of unknown reasons the moment I carved a screen the next screen I want to carve copies the previous carving to the new screen the moment I place a combo in carving mode.


Edited by Naru, 06 April 2017 - 04:50 PM.


#53 Lüt

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 05:06 PM

[edit] @Lüt - actually I can't do some things with my laptop. I can't use rational/dungeon carving mode since out of unknown reasons the moment I carved a screen the next screen I want to carve copies the previous carving to the new screen the moment I place a combo in carving mode.

Oh, that's not a laptop problem. Data from relational/carving modes is stored until you exit and re-enter the mode.

 

So you press "o" to enter the mode, and it keeps track of what you draw on the screen, so you can add or take away from it. But press "o" again to exit, and cycle through the modes back to relational or carving, then it will start you over again.


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#54 strike

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 05:06 PM

All I wanna say for right now- does anybody want to see how close they can get to 9:45? ; ) I think people will be surprised when they try to figure out how that is possible XD There are several built in strats, that's all I'll say. The quest file is unpassworded. I think it could be finished in six or seven minutes.

-Strike

#55 Naru

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 05:29 PM

Didn't know I had to do that after each room. Pressing "o" indeed does the trick. I normally use the mouse to click the right corner, but that does not reset it.



#56 Architect Abdiel

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 06:29 PM

All I wanna say for right now- does anybody want to see how close they can get to 9:45? ; ) I think people will be surprised when they try to figure out how that is possible XD There are several built in strats, that's all I'll say. The quest file is unpassworded. I think it could be finished in six or seven minutes.
-Strike


I can see the route. How dare you challenge me when I need a nap before work. You offend me.
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#57 Deedee

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:25 PM

I actually did drop a hint at my name though, also. When I put "641" as the author, it was a reference to the ascii key codes that you type by using ALT+NUMPAD. For example, if you hold alt and type 076, then let go of alt and you get the letter L. Or hold alt and type 035 to get the # sign. It's how all characters add up in the character map. So try alt+641 and see what you get 

I actually guessed you by putting in the number as the last 3 digits of the member profile number, and the fact that you had a SOTW submission (I believe) that used your diagonal dungeon walls.





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