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Item selection: B or A+B?


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Poll: Toggle-able button equipment

Which do you prefer?

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#1 V1ral

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 08:54 PM

Toying with subscreen editing has got me to recognize an honestly pretty simple question that I'm probably overthinking, but since I can't immediately see anything on the topic, I thought I'd ask about to see multiple views:

Is it worth letting a player reassign both the A and B button items, or is it just fluff?

Myself, I'm of a mind that the ability to dequip the sword in favor of other weaponry and/or preparing another tool you plan to use soon is a good benefit, but my opinion isn't the only one here. Do you think it's a hassle to lose your sword in the inventory? Maybe it can break things to have multiple tools active? Maybe I'm not seeing something else that'd be obvious?



#2 Russ

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 09:15 PM

Depends. Really, the most important thing is ease of accessing the items you need. If you need two items at one, unless they're right next to each other on the subscreen so you can use L/R to tab between them without opening the subscreen, definitely go with A+B. If you're making the kind of quest where you'd never want anything but a sword equipped, B only is fine. If you go with A+B, definitely grab a script that stills allow for quick swapping with L/R though.


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#3 Moosh

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Posted 04 August 2020 - 11:35 PM

I voted B only, but it really is situational. In a more combat heavy quest (as most tend to be) having the sword equipped at all times is a good thing and being able to quick swap other items with L/R is nice. Subscreen navigation also feels slightly faster as you don't need any A or B button presses to select items. On the other hand, when your game becomes more complex, selecting two items can be helpful. Oftentimes, two item buttons isn't even enough.


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#4 Jared

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 12:32 AM

I honestly don't mind either way. If I had to choose, I like the B button having the sword at all times.


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#5 Jamian

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 02:14 AM

In general I prefer items on B only, but it boils down to: how often, in your quest, will it be useful to have two non-sword items equipped? IIRC Link's Awakening had several of those moments, so it made sense there. 


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#6 Mani Kanina

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 01:43 PM

A+B, no contest. In an ideal world you can have a single button dedicated to something that you always want out (the sword), but when you got a limited number of buttons, not allowing you to switch out both buttons means more menu opening, which breaks the flow of the game.

Furthermore, A+B fills the same functionality as sword set on A constantly anyway, the player need not remove it, and furthermore, the player could put it on B instead if they prefer. The only downside that exists to A+B over B only is that it removes the built in functionality to switch B button item with the L&R buttons..., but there are scripts that replicate that (and supports other buttons to use for quick switching the A button), so.

Though, even more ideally would be if ZC/the quest supports even more buttons for item use mapping, OoT is 3 + dedicated sword button. That's usually fine, but you have no idea how fucking good it is to play OoT randomizer and also have another dedicated button for the ocarina? That's 3 + sword button + ocarina button (+ dedicated buttons to put on iron boots and hoover boots).

Really, the larger your inventory of tools that you need to access is, the more buttons you'd ideally want to dedicate to using those tools. Zelda 1 on the nes had a very limited controller, but it can very much get away with the fact that B button is the only one that is map-able. In that game you need the sword in practically every screen, and only very rarely need something else. Contrast to most quests that try to emulate more modern zelda games with more of a puzzle structure and a much larger assortment of tools and you kind of...., yeah, it gets messy.


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#7 Emily

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Posted 05 August 2020 - 05:36 PM

Depends. Really, the most important thing is ease of accessing the items you need. If you need two items at one, unless they're right next to each other on the subscreen so you can use L/R to tab between them without opening the subscreen, definitely go with A+B. If you're making the kind of quest where you'd never want anything but a sword equipped, B only is fine. If you go with A+B, definitely grab a script that stills allow for quick swapping with L/R though.

 

I voted B only, but it really is situational. In a more combat heavy quest (as most tend to be) having the sword equipped at all times is a good thing and being able to quick swap other items with L/R is nice. Subscreen navigation also feels slightly faster as you don't need any A or B button presses to select items. On the other hand, when your game becomes more complex, selecting two items can be helpful. Oftentimes, two item buttons isn't even enough.

In 2.55, L/R quickswap is not at all related to A/B subscreen; they are separate QRs.

 

As for my vote, clearly you need 4 or 5 item buttons XD

(MM2D has 3 assignable ones, PLUS the sword, PLUS 2 situation-based buttons....)


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#8 Timelord

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 04:24 AM

It's quite subjective, but, let's examine the philosophy involved.

 

In a B-only quest the player may only have one weapon that you can select, and the current sword is set to one button. You are prevented from selecting between swords, which limits quest design and balance/compensation. With a B+A subscreen the player may still elect to have the highest level sword in their inventory set to a button at all times, or they may set two other items.

 

Thus the decision not to allow the player to choose, is one where you feel that having two button items makes the player overpowered. Z3 was originally going to allow setting two items, but the developers wanted to force the player to focus on swordplay. That is why you could only set one subweapon in the game.

 

If you want to force use of the sword, the B only subscreen makes sense, and if you feel that having multiple ranged weapons available at one time is overpowered then it also makes sense. Other than these two reasons, it serves absolutely no purpose to deny the payer two selectable button items.

 

In my own designs, my game situations often deny, or severely punish use of the sword, to focus on other tactical combinations of items and weapons. Thus, I almost exclusively use B+A subscreens, and the only times that I have not, were situations where either I wanted to force swordplay, or in versions ere the option existed.

 

One of the balancing tricks that I use with sword levels, is to modify some item settings. As an example, a L2 sword may be more powerful, or may have sword beams, but it could be eaten/stolen by enemies, and thus using it around them adds risk. (I did in fact, do exactly this in two quests.)

 

An alternative is a pair of swords where one sword has stronger melee potential, and where the other sword has weaker beams, but they are taken away at a lower HP threshold, such as, 75%. Having the ability to set one or the other to a button, or one to each button adds variety that is otherwise not possible with B-only subscreen types.

 

Thus, not only are you restricting the freedom of the player but also your own freedom to explore creative lines and angles when designing the game.


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#9 P-Tux7

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Posted 08 August 2020 - 11:29 PM

A+B, no contest. In an ideal world you can have a single button dedicated to something that you always want out (the sword), but when you got a limited number of buttons, not allowing you to switch out both buttons means more menu opening, which breaks the flow of the game.

Furthermore, A+B fills the same functionality as sword set on A constantly anyway, the player need not remove it, and furthermore, the player could put it on B instead if they prefer. The only downside that exists to A+B over B only is that it removes the built in functionality to switch B button item with the L&R buttons..., but there are scripts that replicate that (and supports other buttons to use for quick switching the A button), so.

Though, even more ideally would be if ZC/the quest supports even more buttons for item use mapping, OoT is 3 + dedicated sword button. That's usually fine, but you have no idea how fucking good it is to play OoT randomizer and also have another dedicated button for the ocarina? That's 3 + sword button + ocarina button (+ dedicated buttons to put on iron boots and hoover boots).

Really, the larger your inventory of tools that you need to access is, the more buttons you'd ideally want to dedicate to using those tools. Zelda 1 on the nes had a very limited controller, but it can very much get away with the fact that B button is the only one that is map-able. In that game you need the sword in practically every screen, and only very rarely need something else. Contrast to most quests that try to emulate more modern zelda games with more of a puzzle structure and a much larger assortment of tools and you kind of...., yeah, it gets messy.

Sword: C (EX3)

Item 1: Z (A)

Item 2: X (B)

A/S: Quick swap item 1 (L/R)

Q/W: Quick swap item 2 (EX1/EX2)

 

Done. You even have an extra EX button for another purpose, such as picking up objects, Pegasus Boots, rolling, or talking. ZC 2.55 can even read keyboard letter key presses, so if you don't mind hardcoding the player's controls, you can use those for even more buttons.



#10 Emily

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Posted 09 August 2020 - 01:05 AM

ZC 2.55 can even read keyboard letter key presses, so if you don't mind hardcoding the player's controls, you can use those for even more buttons.

I mean, or you can script a controls menu so that the player can change even those controls.




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