Jump to content

Photo

Obsession with perfection.


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#16 Zaxarone

Zaxarone

    Gigi & Merri Superstar Saga

  • Members
  • Real Name:Derek
  • Location:Oregon

Posted 22 May 2017 - 12:17 PM

one phrase: If it's worth doing at all, Its worth doing right.

And by right I mean generally devoid of errors in which take away from fun. that doesn't mean perfect, or pretty in every area. it means a balanced game, both in difficulty and design. that more or less my standpoint on it. I mean I only do this to get experience for actual game design on day. does that mean i should be lazy and let bad design into my game? no. and this whole thing about "expectations" that kinda stuff evolves with time, just like anything else. so I don't know. i feel like we should always strive to better our games no matter if we're getting paid. because one day you might decide, "Hey... I could do this for a living" and all those bad habits creep into your first indie game and all the stuff people warned you about are starting to make sense. 

On the other hand, if you don't wanna make games for a living, at least make ur fan games enjoyable. give them something that plays well and looks decent. if its worth doing, its worth doing right.


  • Anthus, Shane and Matthew like this

#17 Naru

Naru

    Magus

  • Members

Posted 22 May 2017 - 01:43 PM

@Zaxaphone - I agree with everything you say, but it really confuses me why you say it like this. I don't know why though. Maybe because Anthus basically said that it is good enough to do your best, no need to suffer because others are better. And doing your best obviously includes not giving in to bad habits. I don't know, I understand everything you said but still feel very confused.

@Shane - I don't understand quite a lot of the things you say - or why you brought them up. Maybe I am just not intelligent enough. I mean it feels to me somewhat as if you see problems or disagreements even though there weren't. Whatever, I find it funny that you brought up "boring" as too vague. I think boring is a very concrete term. I mean there are many ways to make a screen more interesting, there isn't a specific solution for this. Boring says it is somewhat lacking. You say that you are not good at giving criticism, but I think you are very artisic and your critism is of high quality. You are not one of pureZC's best screen designers without reason. If you ask me you make yourself down and think of yourself as so low that you can't even imagine that there are many people that are far, far below you. Of course I am only guessing here. But let me say that it is really hurtful and depressing for people with lacking intelligence/talents if someone with more intelligence/talent acts if he is without talent only because there is some genius still better. And you have a lof of intelligence/talent, Shane!

Edited by Naru, 22 May 2017 - 01:45 PM.


#18 Shane

Shane

    💙

  • Moderators
  • Pronouns:He / Him
  • Location:South Australia

Posted 22 May 2017 - 04:16 PM

@Shane - I don't understand quite a lot of the things you say - or why you brought them up. Maybe I am just not intelligent enough. I mean it feels to me somewhat as if you see problems or disagreements even though there weren't. Whatever, I find it funny that you brought up "boring" as too vague. I think boring is a very concrete term. I mean there are many ways to make a screen more interesting, there isn't a specific solution for this. Boring says it is somewhat lacking. You say that you are not good at giving criticism, but I think you are very artisic and your critism is of high quality. You are not one of pureZC's best screen designers without reason. If you ask me you make yourself down and think of yourself as so low that you can't even imagine that there are many people that are far, far below you. Of course I am only guessing here. But let me say that it is really hurtful and depressing for people with lacking intelligence/talents if someone with more intelligence/talent acts if he is without talent only because there is some genius still better. And you have a lof of intelligence/talent, Shane!

It's this assumption that I'm self loathing that's made me very upset in the first place as wanting criticism shouldn't equate to putting yourself down. Am I seriously missing something here? There's no jealousy, I love what I make obviously. But I'm not going to turn a blind eye to what can be improved. That doesn't mean I have no self respect, nor people should take offense or feel insulted. I got where I am through constructive criticism in the first place.

 

What it has to do with the topic is semi-relevant. While this topic is about graphics the core of the discussion is about obsession with perfection and it seems a lot of criticism comes off as grasping at straws because they can't really find some seriously at fault otherwise they'd point it out, this comes off as wanting something more, something perfect. Also "boring" is pretty broad but I'd rather not digress this topic further. Apologies, Anthus.


  • Evan20000 and Zaxarone like this

#19 Castelia

Castelia

    Fred Durst stan

  • Members
  • Location:down under

Posted 22 May 2017 - 04:42 PM

Guess I'll throw in my two cents here.

I've never been a direct target of this obsession with perfection (almost every bit of criticism I've received was always helpful and constructive). However, reading reviews and such of other people's quests has made me worry a little, especially since I'm not one for making dungeons, but everyone expects dungeons to be the pinnacles of the quest. I also agree with a few other users here - there's really no feasible way to make every single screen unique. The most you can do is shove a Heart Piece or Rupees somewhere. Uniqueness should be reserved for those special landmarks, dungeon screens, or just other points in a quest that deserve it. Every quest will have its fair share of filler screens - that's unavoidable.


  • Matthew likes this

#20 grayswandir

grayswandir

    semi-genius

  • ZC Developers

Posted 22 May 2017 - 06:04 PM

I just wanted to say that I don't think there's a problem with focusing on graphics. Like, if you want to release a quest with amazing graphics and mediocre gameplay, because you love doing graphics work and you're not that great at gameplay. I mean, I'd probably play and enjoy that.

 

The problem, I think, is when other people (or yourself, even) criticize a quest for lacking in one category they think is needed to be "good". Like a miniquest being criticized for being too short when that's all it set out to be. I think it's this sort of "perfection" which hinders creative development.


  • Anthus, Orithan, Evan20000 and 1 other like this

#21 Evan20000

Evan20000

    P͏҉ę͟w͜� ̢͝!

  • Members
  • Real Name:B̵̴̡̕a҉̵̷ņ̢͘͢͜n̷̷ę́͢d̢̨͟͞
  • Location:B̕҉̶͘͝a̶̵҉͝ǹ̵̛͘n̵e̸͜͜͢d҉̶

Posted 22 May 2017 - 07:34 PM

My point is people are obsessed with giving criticism for the sake of giving criticism. I like constructive criticism, criticism that points out actual flaws not something pulled out of thin air because there had to be something to comment on.

This is pretty quotable, and is applicable to more than just PZC.

There's nothing wrong with personally obsessing over any one aspect of a quest, but when you project your obsession on other projects and expect everyone to focus as hard in the same area you do, there's a problem.
  • Anthus and Aevin like this

#22 Orithan

Orithan

    Studying Scientist - Commission from Silvixen

  • Members
  • Location:Australia

Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:20 PM

As much as I am obsessed with perfection, there is a line where I draw where it becomes too much. While it hasn't been as much of a problem as it has been in the past, enforcing your standards of perfection over others is where I draw this line and quite frankly needs to stop.

 

First and foremost, the idea that you require scripting to make a good quest is absolutely ridiculous. With out of the box features, Zelda Classic is exceptionally capable of producing good quests and interesting gameplay mechanics while some of the things that people usually believe require scripting, like permanent whistle triggers, are capable of being done in the editor with the right know-how.

 

Another thing that really gets under my skin are people who demand minor little features to be exactly right or they threaten to downvote it. Criticizing a quest for not having L/R switching, using Flipped Slash, not having Super Fast Scrolling, disabling melee weapons picking up items, etc. feels really nitpicky and petty; unless they notably hamper the experience of more than a few players. I mean, some quest rules can make or break quests like the ones that disable the Continue Screen while Invincible Link/Enemy flickers can cause issues for streaming or those recording at 30 FPS; but criticizing a quest about the other aforementioned things has contributed to the inflation of our standards.

 

Finally, I wish that people would stop expecting everyone to compete with each other in creating the best quests ever. Just make the quest you want to make and don't be pushed by others to produce an experience you don't want to produce. Give and take criticism by all means, as that is crucial to becoming a good designer, but there is no need to listen to every nitpick people make nor there is any need to push people to create the experience you want to create.


Edited by Orithan, 22 May 2017 - 10:27 PM.

  • Anthus, Evan20000 and Matthew like this

#23 TheLegend_njf

TheLegend_njf

    Deified

  • Members
  • Real Name:Grant

Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:28 PM

This is pretty quotable, and is applicable to more than just PZC.

There's nothing wrong with personally obsessing over any one aspect of a quest, but when you project your obsession on other projects and expect everyone to focus as hard in the same area you do, there's a problem.

 

I hate to admit I often project my own standards into my Lets Plays. But I try to do so in a humorous way. Also, a little bit of criticism doesn't hurt. But I've made enemies in the past over this. 



#24 Timelord

Timelord

    The Timelord

  • Banned
  • Location:Prydon Academy

Posted 23 May 2017 - 10:24 AM

I agree. I somehow feel that contests such as SotW are at the root of this. A greater focus on individual screen design, than on quest content and gameplay.

While I admit that there are only so many NES style quests that I can stand, it is not the tileset or graphical design that I am sick of seeing. it's the lack of story, creative gameplay, content, and interesting world layouts, or dungeon layouts, puzzles, and riddles.

I often don't even notice tile errors unless someone goes out of their way to point them out in a thread somewhere, because I am not looking for them when playing a game. I do notice colour clashes, but as long as the colours aren't migraine-inducing, I tend to ignore them.
  • Matthew and Architect Abdiel like this

#25 Architect Abdiel

Architect Abdiel

    Kingdom Builder

  • Members
  • Real Name:Michael
  • Location:Florida

Posted 23 May 2017 - 10:50 AM

I agree. I somehow feel that contests such as SotW are at the root of this. A greater focus on individual screen design, than on quest content and gameplay.While I admit that there are only so many NES style quests that I can stand, it is not the tileset or graphical design that I am sick of seeing. it's the lack of story, creative gameplay, content, and interesting world layouts, or dungeon layouts, puzzles, and riddles.I often don't even notice tile errors unless someone goes out of their way to point them out in a thread somewhere, because I am not looking for them when playing a game. I do notice colour clashes, but as long as the colours aren't migraine-inducing, I tend to ignore them.

That's how I see it. And it shouldn't be that way. Not that contests like SotW shouldn't exist, but critique outside of SotW shouldn't be expecting perfection from every single thing. Although, as I did say before, it also is up to the maker to decide how much they take from the critique. Where it's helpful, where it's nitpicking, and where they feel it's worth it.

I will say I am glad I took some time to get some critique of my own. But I also feel that I have gotten my help and now I understand how to make my screens work as well as I want them too.

But even so, I always would emphasize the mechanics of the game, and the concept of the game, and the unique aspects of the game over the looks. Personally, I design my looks around gameplay. With screens here and there that I try to make nice.

I do throw a lot of this out the window for a simple NES style quest however. And I would never judge a person for not making the kind of experience I enjoy.


I also understand that not everyone fully k knows the ins and outs of the program. Tilesets, sprites, combo cycles, secrets, scripts, and all these things. But I can overlook anything depending on the game.


I am trying to implement riddles into my quest. And I'm hoping it turns well. My Skull Woods dungeon is based on the riddle of the liar and the truthteller.


I think the best strategy for quest making is to play to your strengths. For me that's story telling and creativity. For others it may be basic ideas, scripts or visual design. It all depends on how you use your resources.

Edited by Maikeru D. Shinigami, 23 May 2017 - 10:53 AM.


#26 Anthus

Anthus

    Lord of Liquids

  • Members
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 23 May 2017 - 01:46 PM

Woo boy, this turned into quite the discussion :P. I'll write a much longer reply later, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the authors "obsessing" over creating something, but more or less, the community can have a way of making people's work feel inferior because it's not up to their standards. I'm at work now.
  • Binx and Matthew like this

#27 Binx

Binx

    Formerly Lineas

  • Members
  • Real Name:Brian
  • Location:Lancaster, CA

Posted 23 May 2017 - 03:37 PM

I agree. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with a quest that uses simple graphics or lacks layering as long as it's not eye-bleeding to look at. Graphics don't make a game. Overemphasis on detail can not only put a designer off from finishing a quest since it takes so much longer, but it can honestly look really bad when it's overdone. I've seen SO many SotW entries that look like they'd be a nightmare to navigate, or just look really cluttered, because of all the crap onscreen. There's nothing wrong with having nice screens, but if it's more important to you that your game is pretty than fun, you're doing it wrong; and often, less really is more. I'll pick a clean, "bland", well-crafted classic screen over a cluttered or difficult to navigate DoR screen, any day.


  • Matthew likes this

#28 Naru

Naru

    Magus

  • Members

Posted 23 May 2017 - 05:21 PM

A bit off-topic, but I think I need to apologize. I comment and give critism to train myself in speaking my mind and expressing my thoughts. My comments, especially reviews and such are often rather pointless and not very useful. It has a use for me to comment so indeed I really comment partly just to comment. In short I argued here while I had subconsciously something completly different in mind and didn't realize about it earlier. I got quite obsessed ;)



#29 Avaro

Avaro

    o_o

  • Members
  • Real Name:Robin
  • Location:Germany

Posted 24 May 2017 - 06:50 PM

Obsession with perfection? Oh, you mean those times when I'd move details like flowers left, right, left again and right again, taking up most of the time of screen designing. Yeah, I should stop that but it's hard. xD


  • Anthus, Matthew and Naru like this

#30 Reflectionist

Reflectionist

    Apprentice

  • Members
  • Real Name:Jake
  • Location:Missouri, US

Posted 24 May 2017 - 08:08 PM

I am definitely obsessed with perfection, but its my idea of perfection. I've been reading these forums and the ZC wiki and I have a good idea of what CAN be done. I'm not building anything right now, but I have been conceptualizing the skeleton of my quest.

I guess mostly what I want to achieve out of making a quest is to not do some of the things I've been frustrated with in the official games. But to be a complete quest that never sees a drop in content (TP, look at between Dgn1 -> Dgn2, then Dgn4 -> Dgn5. Where did the plot go?)

To not rehash Ocarina of Time, or LttP, or Breath of the Wild, but to really examine Zelda as a paragon of game design and put my own appreciative spin on it.

Its ambitious as hell.

And daunting.

But that's my struggle with "perfection".
  • Anthus likes this


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users