11 replies to this topic

[Alucard648]

This topis is like "How big is too big" but for dungeons. What is the optimal dungeon size, scaled with level number, assuming there are anough ideas to avoid filler screens?

[Moonlight]

The optimal dungeon size depends on a lot of factors imo, and isn't as simple as making bigger ones the further you go.

Consider things like the mechanics of the dungeon and how they affect how you navigate through it. If you do something very complex, it's generally better not to make a dungeon huge on top of that.

It's also good to consider how much use each individual screen gets. It's very much possible to make a long dungeon with a relatively small amount of screens if those screens serve more than one single purpose, as opposed to screens you do one thing in and realistically never have to revisit.

Essentially, just ask yourself if the dungeon having more screens is actually adding anything beyond making it bigger.

[TheRock]

Dungeon size should keep in mind the gimmick and flow of the dungeon that you are going for. Like do should you have very long pathways in the dungeon? How hard will the screens be to go through? 

 

I think about 40-90 screens feels like a good size. Smaller can work but I think about 40 screens is a good amount to make it play like a main dungeon.  

[Mani Kanina]

Basically what Jenny said.

Structure and goals of the dungeon should determine how long/large it is. Complex puzzle box dungeons should have smaller sized, generally, because the complexity is much higher. Where as a dungeon that is mostly navigational puzzles should maybe be a bit larger? Enemy gauntlets could be on the smaller side, etc etc.

Really, it all matters.

I will say that ZC quests generally trend towards way larger than needed. Probably because Z1's level 9 is a bad baseline and is honestly just a fucking slog.

[Deedee]

Don't measure size by screens, measure by how many minutes or hours it'd take for a blind player compared to how long you want it to take them. If the dungeon ended up feeling lackluster to playtesters, you can always expand later, but the larger you make your dungeon, the more you have to change/cut to tweak the pacing,

Really, keep the pacing in mind, and keep in mind how much the dungeon is actually asking of the player mentally. If it's a navigation based dungeon, avoid arbitrary warps or passages between two places because that's not fun for the player to remember; humans are good at keeping a map of euclidean spaces, so if you're doing noneuclidean things you need to put a lot of effort to make it obvious and intuitive for the player so their brain can make a "mental map" of where they need to go to get from point A to point B.

[Moosh]

Start Eagle sized and work your way up. Only design enough screens for what you have interesting original content for. Avoid filler screens when possible. Keep your main dungeons healthily under 64 screens but a final dungeon can go over. Keep final dungeons at 96 screens or under. Under no circumstances should a dungeon exceed 96 screens. If you place down a 97th screen, you are committing dungeon crimes. 

 

Semi /s. A lot of dungeon design is up to circumstance, but I do think keeping scope limited to half maps is usually best and smaller is usually better unless you have an abundance of ideas to match the scale.

[Shoshon the Elegant]

From experience, I personally would say start Eagle sized (roughly) and go up. It’s a lot easier to keep motivation and plan when you have less to work with. The Hylian Lament started with a 29 screen dungeon, and level 8, the largest, is 94 screens.

Thankfully didn’t hit that 97th screen.

I think they are fine even being large, but I definitely want to go smaller in the future. I’d like to start around ~20, and end around ~65.

[Alucard648]

Another question occurs on similar topic: how about enabling scpacebar map in really complex dungeons, especially key hunt heavy ones?

[Matthew]

I generally feel that spacebar map is overpowered. Part of the dungeon’s challenge is learning how the rooms flow together and how to navigate the space effectively. Spacebar map can trivialize this.

Spacebar map can make poorly designed dungeons more bearable, to be fair- but that reflects more on the dungeon being badly designed than the spacebar map being a good inclusion.

[Moonlight]

Generally if spacebar map is needed for a dungeon then the dungeon has probably been made too large / complex imo.

[Taco Chopper]

Jenny's probably summarised it all best, but I think anything around 40-50 screens is the maximum for... most dungeons, really. For me, large dungeons are not fun - arbitrarily big areas that don't make sense layout-wise just tend to be frustrating rather than anything positive. Warps and passageways that slingshot you from one side of the dungeon to another with no real cues on where you are are absolutely awful. I've played a quest or two that's used dozens of warps in their first dungeons and after spending half an hour trying to clear it I gave up. If I'm having to use a spacebar map to get my bearings then that's just insult to injury, honestly.

 

Dungeon building should always have an awareness of pacing as well - rooms where the puzzles have to be done every time to progress, any shutter room where you have to kill multiple enemies to progress, needing a hundred keys... stuff like that tends to be closer to filler rather than a passageway or a room with nothing in it but a few pots and some bubble. I think having an awareness of that pacing is just as important as the size of a dungeon too - both factor into the scope and flow of a dungeon as well. Bigger is never better in ZC.

[Twilight Knight]

Of course there is a preference for anyone, but I see a lot of arbitrary numbers, even in the poll.

 

Doesn't it all depend if on if the dungeon feels easier at the start, more difficult near the end, is an immersive experience, with providing the difficulty in a specific or variety of ways. Feeling like an enjoyable accomplishment after killing that boss. And everyone has their own itch to scratch there, that's why I'd call those mentioned numbers arbitrary as the amount of screens is clearly influenced by the dungeon theme, setting and intended gameplay.

 

For example I actually enjoyed OoT's water temple, I liked it's complexity (hated having to switch the boots every 0.002 nanoseconds though). So I'm more into the more complex layouts, even needing to remember rooms that you should revisit later (or search for it), and I especially love gimmicks where depending on the dungeon's state revisiting a room could have surprising results. I like surprises, immersion, puzzles and exploration.

 

The best for me if the dungeon itself feels like a giant puzzle that you need to piece together after exploring all it's possibilities. I generally like a large and complex dungeon layout, and I don't like it when screen layouts feel cramped or the dungeon is simply not much more than a toolbox of doors, keys, puzzles, items and combat. Some "pointlessly" long corridor could add to immersion of a grandiose castle, for example. A storage room with just some pots could add to the idea that this is actually a place that was used for more than giving you a Triforce piece (or whatever). All adds to some immersion, some realism, some exploration, things I'd enjoy.

 

Actually super important to that immersion factor, I think this is something everyone would agree on this one, is that the chosen music for the dungeon fits the length. Make sure it doesn't loop too much and get repetitive and annoying after a while. Maybe mix it up, give F2 a different (complimentary) tune than F1, why not? And please don't have the same tune for every dungeon.


To my conclusion really just make the dungeon that you would like to play.